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rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2011 : 13:10:29
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Gotta vent. 
Roster batting, kid (last batted out pinch running for catcher) gets hurt diving back to first in the middle of the game. Has to come out and the original runner goes back in.
?????????(I'm confused already.)
Game goes on and injured kid's turn in the order is coming up. Coach goes to clarify the rule about what happens if he can't complete his at bat with the HP ump who hasn't a clue and who then goes to talk to the field ump about whether this player will be an auto out if he misses his turn to bat bc of injury. Wastes 5 minutes deciding it would be an out. TD watching the whole thing. Kid's turn comes up and he sucks it up and goes to the plate. Gets a bloop single and limps toward first. Opposing coach then comes out and wastes another 5 minutes arguing that the kid CAN'T come back in after the umpire says he can either hit or take the out (time about to expire, we are down by one with guy on and 2 outs) and continues this stall tactic BUSH junk while TD continues to watch the whole thing. Next batter K's and the end result of 10 minutes of frickin discussion over a simple RULE means game over. I find this bogus.
If umpires are getting PAID they should know their stuff and not ruin a good game by letting time run out because they don't know what they are doing. TD should have stepped in and allowed the last inning to be played.
OH - and I need to add that the beeper on the umps timer went off a full 20 seconds AFTER the last out and both teams were in their respective dugouts and our catcher running toward homeplate. As a matter of fact, he was walking toward the field ump, heard the timer go off, walked back and then called ballgame. BOGUS!! |
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momshell
103 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 07:40:50
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Wow! Rippit, Where was this?
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touchemall
145 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 08:02:25
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My turn:
Take the time clock out of the equation by allowing a full 6 innings to be played at the younger ages (or lengthen the time from what it is now). Too many coaches are controlling games and the umpires are allowing it to happen because they are unable to manage the pace of the games. One team made sure of it this weekend with several delay tactics from long visits to the mound, medical injuries that were minor and should have needed very little time for recovery, holding the catcher in the dugout to delay the start of an inning, arguing 3 and 4 calls in a game that did not go his way, and my most favorite - arguing with the umpire on rules the coach should have known before he was allowed to coach a team. In total, they were allowed to burn 15 to 20 minutes of game time from the clock just because the umpires allowed them to control the game. Umpires, run the game or step aside and let the innings dictate the outcome not the clock. |
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 09:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by touchemall
My turn:
Take the time clock out of the equation by allowing a full 6 innings to be played at the younger ages (or lengthen the time from what it is now). Too many coaches are controlling games and the umpires are allowing it to happen because they are unable to manage the pace of the games. One team made sure of it this weekend with several delay tactics from long visits to the mound, medical injuries that were minor and should have needed very little time for recovery, holding the catcher in the dugout to delay the start of an inning, arguing 3 and 4 calls in a game that did not go his way, and my most favorite - arguing with the umpire on rules the coach should have known before he was allowed to coach a team. In total, they were allowed to burn 15 to 20 minutes of game time from the clock just because the umpires allowed them to control the game. Umpires, run the game or step aside and let the innings dictate the outcome not the clock.
One of the great things about Cooperstown no time limits |
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reallycoach
64 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 09:58:29
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Good thing we aren't football coaches where every time tactic in the book is used. Unless the sactioning bodies remove the clock, a part of the team managers job is to manage the clock. If it's in the rules, it's part of the game.
I expect every coach to manage the game on game day and to coach during practice. If a tournament that qulaified my team for a run at the national championship was lost becasue the team manager failed to manage the clock I would be very disappointed. Now that's not to say fake and injury, that's cheating. But to change pitchers, slow the pace of the game by slowing up the picther or having the batter call time between every pitch, meetings on the mound, are all acceptable tactics. If the ump thinks your getting too carried away, thet will stop it. Just like pitchers quick pitching a batter, it's an acceptable tactic. Nothing like standing on the sidelines helpless as the clock runs out, but that's what happens if there is a clock. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 10:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by reallycoach
Good thing we aren't football coaches where every time tactic in the book is used. Unless the sactioning bodies remove the clock, a part of the team managers job is to manage the clock. If it's in the rules, it's part of the game.
I expect every coach to manage the game on game day and to coach during practice. If a tournament that qulaified my team for a run at the national championship was lost becasue the team manager failed to manage the clock I would be very disappointed. Now that's not to say fake and injury, that's cheating. But to change pitchers, slow the pace of the game by slowing up the picther or having the batter call time between every pitch, meetings on the mound, are all acceptable tactics. If the ump thinks your getting too carried away, thet will stop it. Just like pitchers quick pitching a batter, it's an acceptable tactic. Nothing like standing on the sidelines helpless as the clock runs out, but that's what happens if there is a clock.
From the things I can't stand about travel ball thread:
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
Time limits.   
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 13:01:25
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| Here is funny one: ball four thrown, runner begins his trot to 1st. Umpire calls him back and says no, that was ball 3. After much hoohah, both coaches show the umpire that it was ball 4 in the books. Umpire says no way, tosses coach for fighting over balls and strikes, game goes bonkers...Icing on the cake---His partner walks over and says that it was ball 4 and awards the player 1st base. Plate umpire never says a word and coach can not return. This was the 3 or 4 time in 2 games this guy had the count wrong and pretty much told everyone to get lost. Why is he still umpiring at the elite level? It gets worse every week. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 14:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by touchemall
My turn:
Take the time clock out of the equation by allowing a full 6 innings to be played at the younger ages (or lengthen the time from what it is now). Too many coaches are controlling games and the umpires are allowing it to happen because they are unable to manage the pace of the games. One team made sure of it this weekend with several delay tactics from long visits to the mound, medical injuries that were minor and should have needed very little time for recovery, holding the catcher in the dugout to delay the start of an inning, arguing 3 and 4 calls in a game that did not go his way, and my most favorite - arguing with the umpire on rules the coach should have known before he was allowed to coach a team. In total, they were allowed to burn 15 to 20 minutes of game time from the clock just because the umpires allowed them to control the game. Umpires, run the game or step aside and let the innings dictate the outcome not the clock.
That's what I was thinking driving home last night. The clock should never be a factor. Play a set number of innings. I get that time can go awry for a number of factors (weather), but this tournament was WELL on schedule. The time thing gets screwed up more often than not bc of umps who don't know squat or TD's who don't give a rip.
Go another one for you but this one had a happy ending: couple tourneys ago in the championship game, game time is 30 minutes longer than normal according to rules. Umpire making noise during the 5th inning like time about to expire at 1 hr. 50. TD is called over and talks to HP ump. Problem resolved???
Ummmmm NO! Down by 6, the visiting team shuts down the home team at 7:10. Game started promptly at 5PM. How much time is left on the clock?
Ump calls game. Fans go nuts. TD sitting there in his cart with all the trophies in it waiting to hand them out and unaware of the start time etc. A MOM had to go to the TD and explain that there are 10 minutes on the clock remaining. TD goes to ump and they discuss it to death, but this TD insists that the ump put the 10 minutes on the clock and finish the game because it's the right thing to do.
Visiting team mounts a miracle "everybody hits everybody scores" rally scoring 11 in the top of the 6th and holds in the bottom of the 6th to win by 5.
What if that MOM hadn't been so persistent??? That was the first and possibly last trophy some of these boys will ever win in travel ball. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 15:30:57
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| "It (baseball) has no clock, no ties and no Liberal intrusions into the organized progression."-George Will |
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 15:31:19
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| Do umps have to have a certain amount of experience in rec ball before being able to do tournament games? Are there "evaluators" (other than the parents and coaches) that look over umps periodically? We had a horribly missed call at 2nd this weekend where our catcher threw out the runner and he was called safe. On the next field switch our coach asked what he saw to call him safe and the response was, "this is my 2nd game I guess I missed that one"! HOLY COW!! |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 16:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by 22202
Do umps have to have a certain amount of experience in rec ball before being able to do tournament games? Are there "evaluators" (other than the parents and coaches) that look over umps periodically? We had a horribly missed call at 2nd this weekend where our catcher threw out the runner and he was called safe. On the next field switch our coach asked what he saw to call him safe and the response was, "this is my 2nd game I guess I missed that one"! HOLY COW!!
Personally speaking yes. I did rec ball for a couple of years before even being called to do travel. Then, I received more training from my ump boss on the field and off. I started off with younger ages working with more experienced guys, working my way up. My ump boss is at the park on Tourney Days 95% of the time, making his rounds, and is ALWAYS one phone call away for me to pick his brain on a rule afterwards. I still work with a guy with more experience, even after doing USSSA for a few years, and I still carry my OBR and USSSA rules in the car with me. |
Edited by - christheump on 05/16/2011 17:59:33 |
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DoubleD
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 22:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by oldmanmj
This was the 3 or 4 time in 2 games this guy had the count wrong and pretty much told everyone to get lost. Why is he still umpiring at the elite level? It gets worse every week.
14U...know EXACTLY which one you're referring to.
His strike zone changes from inning to inning as well.
Some innings, he has NO strike zone...every pitch is a ball.
Also struggles with how many outs have been recorded. |
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davidh6265
27 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 00:43:09
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There is an easy solution to the delay tactics...play all games without a time limit and pay umpires per hour. Also, let's get rid of courtesy runners. Both, time clocks and courtesy runners, are not real baseball. There are reasons for that. As for the courtesy runner, I think they waste more time than the extra 45 seconds it would take the catcher left on base to get into his equipment.
There is NOTHING an umpire can do if a team wants to play bush league and stall. Your anger, although justified, is NOT the umpires fault. Think about it, how often would an umpire run into this situation? I doubt even the TD knew what to do. If it took 5 minutes or whatever to make the right call, at least the umpires are trying to make the right call. |
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CJM
15 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 10:35:06
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| Maybe an easier solution: Stop the clock. Going forward all time is kept on a stop watch and when there is a pitching change during an inning, an injury, an argument/question on a ruling, etc. the Ump stops the clock until issue is resolved and the ball is live again. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 14:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by CJM
Maybe an easier solution: Stop the clock. Going forward all time is kept on a stop watch and when there is a pitching change during an inning, an injury, an argument/question on a ruling, etc. the Ump stops the clock until issue is resolved and the ball is live again.
Then they'd argue over when the clock should have been stopped/started.  |
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rjrousseau1
81 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 15:20:30
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What makes the time limits even worse is unpires that don't push the game in between half innings. During a game a few weekends ago after each half inning ended the 2 umpires converged and talked, paying no attention to how many warm up pitches were being thrown. At one point I suggested they ask for the catcher to "throw it down" and I got a real nasty stare from the home plate umpire (who also showed up 10 minutes late even though the game before us finished 45 minutes before our scheduled game time). Umpire said "it's a new pitcher," I said "yea, he gets 8 pitches and he's now at about 15 and still going..."
Since the time is part of the game then perhaps stop watches should be required for umpires, none of this, "game time is 2:27." Because I am not sure what time my watch was at when the umps watch was at 2:27pm!! And maybe instead of 8 pitches we just start using a time limit in between the half innings...
Any TDs reading this stuff? Playing 4-5 inning games routinely in tournaments makes me think we should just schedule 2 weekend doubleheaders to get 28 innings of baseball in rather than spend $350-$450 to play 15 innings.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 16:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by davidh6265
There is an easy solution to the delay tactics...play all games without a time limit and pay umpires per hour. Also, let's get rid of courtesy runners. Both, time clocks and courtesy runners, are not real baseball. There are reasons for that. As for the courtesy runner, I think they waste more time than the extra 45 seconds it would take the catcher left on base to get into his equipment.
There is NOTHING an umpire can do if a team wants to play bush league and stall. Your anger, although justified, is NOT the umpires fault. Think about it, how often would an umpire run into this situation? I doubt even the TD knew what to do. If it took 5 minutes or whatever to make the right call, at least the umpires are trying to make the right call.
A lot of the stuff we do aren't "real baseball"....Starting with batting 10-11-12-19 players so every body gets equal playing time... |
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momshell
103 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2011 : 17:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CJM
Maybe an easier solution: Stop the clock. Going forward all time is kept on a stop watch and when there is a pitching change during an inning, an injury, an argument/question on a ruling, etc. the Ump stops the clock until issue is resolved and the ball is live again.
We had an umpire who stopped the clock because of a rule violation( by our team....oops) while he checked with the the TD. Awesome Umpire! |
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Hanging Curve
64 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 15:02:31
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quote:
Originally posted by davidh6265
There is an easy solution to the delay tactics...play all games without a time limit and pay umpires per hour. Also, let's get rid of courtesy runners. Both, time clocks and courtesy runners, are not real baseball. There are reasons for that. As for the courtesy runner, I think they waste more time than the extra 45 seconds it would take the catcher left on base to get into his equipment.
There is NOTHING an umpire can do if a team wants to play bush league and stall. Your anger, although justified, is NOT the umpires fault. Think about it, how often would an umpire run into this situation? I doubt even the TD knew what to do. If it took 5 minutes or whatever to make the right call, at least the umpires are trying to make the right call.
I would bet there IS something an ump can do. I remember back when I was coaching Dizzy Dean there was a rule in the rule books allowing an umpire to grant an extra inning if a coach was using obviously deliberate stall tactics. In all my years coaching, I saw exactly TWO umpires who a) knew the rule and b) exercised the rule.
I haven't taken the time to read USSSA, HS, and TC rules but it seems to me this is the most obvious solution because as much as we would like to gripe & complain, time limits are a necessary part of travel ball tournaments. Take this weekend in the 13U Super NIT in Auburn for example, there are 24 teams playing in that tournament. Two weeks ago, I believe Triple Crown had 36 teams in that 13U age group. I would wager that very few of the games in those tournaments actually complete the entire 7 innings of play. If they do, the pitchers were throwing strikes and there weren't a ton of hits. Since there have to be time limits, all it takes is an umpire who recognizes a coach trying to stall. Let him warn that coach to speed things up, and when/if that doesn't happen, add another inning to the game. Do that once or twice and you won't have to do it anymore because the coaches will recognize it won't get them anywhere. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 18:19:41
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| The only thing we can do is say "Let's go coach!" |
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goinyard
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2011 : 16:59:21
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| Would like some feedback here on what has been some pathetic umpiring that I've seen take place so far this weekend. First question, when a play is being made at home plate does the opposing runner have to slide or not. This particular play the runner was out but not for a lack of sliding but for the catcher making the tag. However, the catcher was injured due to having his leg stepped on by the runner. Once the injury occured the other runners continued to advance bases but unfortunately no play could be made by the catcher because of the injury. Should this have been a dead ball once the runner made no attempt to slide or does he not have to slide. Second question, a runner got caught in a pickle between 3rd and home. After a few back and forth throws were made the kid with the ball throws back to 3rd then interferes with the runner by running into him as he change his direction to go home. The runner was tagged and called out as well as receiving a minor injury due to this interference. unfortunately, no interference was called even with both umpires on the 3rd base line watching. This one was a no brainer. To make things clear, the runner was 100% in the base line when this happend but that wasn't even an issue with this play. To make matter worse the coach was thrown out for questioning the call or lack of and didn't appear that the coach ever got a staright answer as to why no interference was called. In the end this was not just bad calls but about the umpires not knowing and understanding the rules. For me, this has truely been the worst year of umpiring I've seen thus far. I guess with all the tourneys out there today there's plenty of work to go around for these umpires. Therefore, they don't appreciate and respect their jobs and those that provide this work for them enough to make sure they know it and do it properly. Don't get me wrong I know there's good umpires out there but overall this has gotten ridiculous. You know what they say, " A few bad eggs can ruin the whole bunch". Well there's more than a few bad umpires out there today and I feel bad for the ones that do take pride in their work. |
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goinyard
23 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2011 : 17:19:09
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| To add to my ranting and questions. If I'm not mistaking there wasn't a TD anywhere to be found either during this pathetic display of umpiring. I would think on elimination day there would be a TD on site and available but maybe there's something I'm unaware of, JMO. Thanks and all (positive) responses are appreciated. |
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11baseball11
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 00:37:08
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Goinyard We had our entire coaching staff tossed today in 2 min. in the bottom of the 1st inning because the ump ruled that a pitcher does NOT need to come set while toeing the rubber before delivering a throw home on a steal of home. Two of the coaches were toss from the dugout while talking to each other about the play. If that isn't bad enough, we were playing the host team at the time who we just happened to of had one of thier players defect to our team a month ago.(they came to us)
top that |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 08:45:50
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The runner must slide OR attempt to avoid contact. There are 2 rules of thought regarding what happens when a player gets hurts during live play and the type of injury it appears to be. "Little Johnny" that misplay a hop and take one to the funny bone and stands there shaking his arm is play on. The same "Little Johnny" that takes a line drive squarely is a different story. 1. Kill It....As an umpire who has kids, their safety is paramount. I will deal with runner placement later and any complaints from the coaches. 2. EVERY coach I have dealt with has had ZERO problems with me killing a play, and I have found that everyone of them will actually hold their runners, and in most OC's are even on their way onto the field to check on the kid. I would rather deal with an irate coach over runner placement than an irate coach and parent over letting their kid lay on the ground writhing in pain with an unknown injury.
The second part of your question was about interefence, acutally obstruction in this case, is a judgement call. It is hard to say one way or the other. As far as the coach getting tossed, there may be more to the story that just getting tossed for asking a question. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 10:00:25
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| I hate that all runners must slide as I feel it gives the defense an advantage they don't really need. I think as long as there is not an attempt to flat out take out the catcher we should give the runner some room to get creative! But I agree with Chris 100% on this one about safety, we played in Alabama last year and the team we were guest playing with had a pitcher get drilled in the face, our coach ran out there to check on him and the umpire continued to let the kids run around!! The kid broke his orbital bone and cheek bone....TD actually agreed with the umpire, a little common sense and class from the other coach would have made it a no-brainer. |
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2011 : 10:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by christheump
The runner must slide OR attempt to avoid contact. There are 2 rules of thought regarding what happens when a player gets hurts during live play and the type of injury it appears to be. "Little Johnny" that misplay a hop and take one to the funny bone and stands there shaking his arm is play on. The same "Little Johnny" that takes a line drive squarely is a different story. 1. Kill It....As an umpire who has kids, their safety is paramount. I will deal with runner placement later and any complaints from the coaches. 2. EVERY coach I have dealt with has had ZERO problems with me killing a play, and I have found that everyone of them will actually hold their runners, and in most OC's are even on their way onto the field to check on the kid. I would rather deal with an irate coach over runner placement than an irate coach and parent over letting their kid lay on the ground writhing in pain with an unknown injury.
The second part of your question was about interefence, acutally obstruction in this case, is a judgement call. It is hard to say one way or the other. As far as the coach getting tossed, there may be more to the story that just getting tossed for asking a question.
Saw a kid get tossed in 2 different tourneys for trying to take out the catcher...Seems to me he should go play football. |
Edited by - itsaboutbb on 05/23/2011 11:01:30 |
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When umps don't know rules!!!
