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2playersmom
59 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2011 : 20:20:13
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here's a sticky one maybe so but its got to be asked since we feel have seen some already this short season:
is there really politics involved picking high school teams and then in putting certain players on the feild ? what are the politics about ??
or is this just moaning+groaning from disgruntled families ?? |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2011 : 22:58:09
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| MONEY is what usually drives the politics in HS baseball. It is reality check for many people when their son starts trying out for HS sports. You spend all of that time thinking about the day when you don't have to deal with the "politics" in your kids sports when the get to HS. Only to find out they are the same or worse at the HS level. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Corbin
MONEY is what usually drives the politics in HS baseball. It is reality check for many people when their son starts trying out for HS sports. You spend all of that time thinking about the day when you don't have to deal with the "politics" in your kids sports when the get to HS. Only to find out they are the same or worse at the HS level.
I agree, but what I've seen is that money may get someone on the team (i.e. strong fundraiser, tireless volunteer, etc), but playing time is ultimately determined by talent. A top player isn't kept off a team or off the field because a weaker player's parent raises a lot of money for the program. It would be the bottom/lower tier players who might be kept off a roster for the sake of another kid whose parents contribute a great deal to the program, but it would really be trading one bench player for another. It becomes a different level of politics for making the roster, but once the roster is selected, it's all about winning, and I have yet to see a coach try to disguise that sentiment. |
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 16:54:21
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| in the know, I wish I could agree with you, but I have seen different in 4 states and 6 different teams. If you bring better than average dollars, you can almost guarantee your kid a spot, girl or boy, baseball, basketball etc. I watched a High School coach last year, keep from getting into the AAAAA State Tournament because he let 2 very inferior position players start over 4 better and highly athletic players. It was nothing more than money. It all comes down to weather your coach has a back bone or not. Ours doesn't because we have the same situation with new players on Varsity this year. Let's ask a more pressing question, what about the schools that are requiring a payment up front, before tryouts, or you can not tryout or play for the school? Illegal? Mandatory pay to play high school sports.......tragedy for the family that can't afford it. How many potential athletes are turning away? |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 17:41:20
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| An earlier post on the general forum has some comments on only playing elite level ball vs. HS ball....Mandatory pay to play could very well drive the really really elite kids to playing full time travel with other talented players as well. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 23:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
An earlier post on the general forum has some comments on only playing elite level ball vs. HS ball....Mandatory pay to play could very well drive the really really elite kids to playing full time travel with other talented players as well.
I think not. For several reasons. One is, if you can't pay for HS, you definetely can't pay for an elite travel team. They're not cheap either. Two, there is no other game in town during the spring for HS age players. And three, if they are "really, really elite", as you put it, they will play on the HS team. Politics pretty much go away when you are a top player. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 03:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
An earlier post on the general forum has some comments on only playing elite level ball vs. HS ball....Mandatory pay to play could very well drive the really really elite kids to playing full time travel with other talented players as well.
A lot of people on the board have been paying $1K-$2K per year or more to play travel since their kids were 9 or younger. From the sound of it, they've done it to play for a bunch of daddy-ball practitioners in tournaments run by mercenaries who would run over a kid to pick up a nickel. And now some booster club dues and fund raisers are going to run people off?
I would bet that for 95%, probably more, of the players, the goal of playing travel in the first place is to play for their high school. I doubt that the money is going to run a large number of them off.
10 years from now wayyyyyyyyyyy more people are going to remember that your son played for his HS than that he played for whatever travel team he played for. Especially if he plays for a different travel team every year.
Just my (non-mandatory) $.02. |
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TS55
9 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 08:42:24
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| Allstar I couldn't agree with you more. A small percentage of kids will go on to the next level. Playing High school ball will be the ultimate destination for most. There are politics in EVERYTHING. Sometimes it goes your way sometimes it don't. We all deal with it in different ways. Coaches always have favorite players, though some don't let it affect playing time. Playing High school ball should be a blast as it's the time you get to play with the guys you grew up with. |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 08:48:30
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I am sure there is a program that politics get involved, but the programs I have seen don't. You have to win to keep your job at most schools.
I think people use politics as a scape-goat for the real reasons their kids don't play: attitude, work ethic, hustle, off-field issues, etc. I have personally seen parents do this and blame it on politics...their player would never be disrespectful or not hustle...ha. Their kid didn't play because we couldn't trust him in the game to execute the situation. So we played a less-talented player with more hustle who would do what we wanted. This is only one example.
In most cases HS Coaches are baseball people...most parents are plumbers, accountants, business owners...there are elements to the game at 13-18 that non-baseball people don't understand. You just have to Know Your Role (parents and players). |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 11:33:28
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Recruiters and Scouts have X dollars to spend on trips per year to scout players. If either of these go to a high school game to see 2 or 3 players its going to cost them X dollars. If they go to an Elite travel ball tournament to see 30 to 40 prospect players its still going to cost them X dollars.
Times are changing. 5 years ago high school baseball was where you got noticed for college and the draft. Now however most of these people that make the decisions that will effect a players chance at the next level whether it be college or the draft has transitioned over to travel ball and the showcase tournaments it produces.
As for the comment that you will be remembered longer playing for your high school. I am not sure about everyone else but I didnt play high school ball to be remembered. I played to get recruited to play college ball. Also once you hit these showcase travel ball teams. Trust me there is no daddy ball going on with the elite programs. Once you hit 14u the daddy ball pretty much goes right out the window because the game has passed up dads knowledge base of the game as it should be played.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
An earlier post on the general forum has some comments on only playing elite level ball vs. HS ball....Mandatory pay to play could very well drive the really really elite kids to playing full time travel with other talented players as well.
A lot of people on the board have been paying $1K-$2K per year or more to play travel since their kids were 9 or younger. From the sound of it, they've done it to play for a bunch of daddy-ball practitioners in tournaments run by mercenaries who would run over a kid to pick up a nickel. And now some booster club dues and fund raisers are going to run people off?
I would bet that for 95%, probably more, of the players, the goal of playing travel in the first place is to play for their high school. I doubt that the money is going to run a large number of them off.
10 years from now wayyyyyyyyyyy more people are going to remember that your son played for his HS than that he played for whatever travel team he played for. Especially if he plays for a different travel team every year.
Just my (non-mandatory) $.02.
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 13:00:04
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There is no mandatory requirement that kids pay to play high school sports. In fact its just the opposite, programs cannot require players to pay. Yes, there are dues, but if you really pressed the issue, your booster club President and Coach would tell you that dues are voluntary.
We can start a whole new thread on what happensif you don't pay, but I can't imagine any HS coach, whose very job depends on winning, would play weaker players over better ones. And I doubt a coach would not use a player who could help him win because his family can't afford to pay voluntary dues. If htere are any coaches out there doing that, they should not be coaching.
That's one of the main reasons to me that you have booster clubs, so the coaches are insulated from knowing who can and cannot pay and who is and is not bringing in money to the program thorugh sponsorships/donations. But I'm sure many of them are directly involved in their dugout club operations by necessity. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 14:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
Recruiters and Scouts have X dollars to spend on trips per year to scout players. If either of these go to a high school game to see 2 or 3 players its going to cost them X dollars. If they go to an Elite travel ball tournament to see 30 to 40 prospect players its still going to cost them X dollars.
Times are changing. 5 years ago high school baseball was where you got noticed for college and the draft. Now however most of these people that make the decisions that will effect a players chance at the next level whether it be college or the draft has transitioned over to travel ball and the showcase tournaments it produces.
As for the comment that you will be remembered longer playing for your high school. I am not sure about everyone else but I didnt play high school ball to be remembered. I played to get recruited to play college ball. Also once you hit these showcase travel ball teams. Trust me there is no daddy ball going on with the elite programs. Once you hit 14u the daddy ball pretty much goes right out the window because the game has passed up dads knowledge base of the game as it should be played.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
An earlier post on the general forum has some comments on only playing elite level ball vs. HS ball....Mandatory pay to play could very well drive the really really elite kids to playing full time travel with other talented players as well.
A lot of people on the board have been paying $1K-$2K per year or more to play travel since their kids were 9 or younger. From the sound of it, they've done it to play for a bunch of daddy-ball practitioners in tournaments run by mercenaries who would run over a kid to pick up a nickel. And now some booster club dues and fund raisers are going to run people off?
I would bet that for 95%, probably more, of the players, the goal of playing travel in the first place is to play for their high school. I doubt that the money is going to run a large number of them off.
10 years from now wayyyyyyyyyyy more people are going to remember that your son played for his HS than that he played for whatever travel team he played for. Especially if he plays for a different travel team every year.
Just my (non-mandatory) $.02.
I was talking about what the player and those around him will remember 10 years from now.
I also said 95%. There are always exceptions.
I was also talking about the ages leading up to high school and my point about the daddy ball and tournament directors is that they are consistent themes of complaint on the board.
My real point was that there is not going to be some mass exodus away from the high school teams, especially over the dues.
My son had some nice individual highlights in All Star and travel, including clutch pitching performances, great defensive plays, and a couple of really clutch hits deep in tournaments. All of those were blown out of the water by just making his HS team. Your mileage may vary.
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baseballparentof2
22 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 15:08:24
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The coach for our high school is 100% about the money and who you know. My son went out for pitcher only and when cut he asked him why. 2 reasons he gave him- you didn't pitch well in the tryouts and you should have played summer ball!!! Which as I understand a coach can not make it mandatory for you to play summer ball. As far as he didn't pitch well is BS. He faced the top 7 hitters (he asked to face the top 7). Did not let up a hit. Another kid pitches right after him to the same 7 batters- walks 4 and 3 are hit to the fence. Both are pitchers only. He took the other kid because?????? MONEY and the fact that the kid played summer play (which was more money to the program).
Sucks for my kid because he would have loved to play for his HS and being he is a senior he doesn't have another chance. I am not some parent who just blames other because my kid didn't make it. My kid can pitch. And there are many others from that school that can say this coach is about money, money, money, money. We would have been glad to pay the "dues" when he made the team. But I REFUSED to sign the "PLEDGE" that we would pay well before tryouts.
The fundraiser lady has a son on the team and he is not high school baseball material. He might play 3 innings all season but since his mom is on the board he automatically makes the team. So not right. But it is what it is and my kid will play travel this summer before going off to college. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 15:16:18
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| I'm guessing that most of the politicking occurs on the Freshman and JV team, but when it comes to Varsity, the best players are on the field. I've heard that Schools take a lot more Freshman players than they really need to pacify the politico's and to raise more cash. I'd likely take the same path if I ran a H.S. program. Less grief, more brownie points, and more cash for the Varsity team. Less chance of missing a future star too. Downside is less reps per player. |
Edited by - bmoser on 02/22/2011 18:30:21 |
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 15:51:23
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| bballmom and RAGGOFAR, I have witnessed what you both may think is impossible or unthinkable at the high school level. Your booster club Pres can say I understand, but your coach can still not pick you to be on the team. I have also seen from a very recent State AAAAA Championship team cut a top notch player now playing college, because he didn't support the program $$$$$. Travel ball is a personal choice, it is a private program and you make the choice. The school you got is not your choice and it is a public program. Keep both eyes open and you pocket book ready, it is at every program. How they choose to deal with those that don't pay varies at every school. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 17:38:32
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| Well said everyone above.....But to say that a truly "elite" player couldn't afford to play on the super elite HS showcase teams isn't realistic....There are 11U teams who will pay a players way if they are good enough, so I would assume a 17-18 year old who had a legit shot at D1 or getting drafted would get to play on a really good team. Like was said above, most of these coaches have to win to keep the job....Play the best player possible!! |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 18:46:49
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| bbpof2, kinda hard to believe your kid asked to pitch against the top 7 kids, got them out the way you described............. and didnt make the team. That seems kinda like fantasy land |
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baseballparentof2
22 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 19:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by loveforthegame25
bbpof2, kinda hard to believe your kid asked to pitch against the top 7 kids, got them out the way you described............. and didnt make the team. That seems kinda like fantasy land
Yes he did ask for the top hitters. He knew he had nothing to lose but wanted to prove to HIMSELF he was good enough. I can honestly say that is EXACTLY what happened. I even spoke with the coach about it and he said it wasn't good enough. My son can pitch and has many people tell him he is good enough to pitch in college. So he will spend the summer playing travel and hope we can get him noticed. Anyone interested in a RHP that is almost 6'4.5", 200 lbs? |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 19:52:35
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G-Man;
I hate to say it but I agree with you, why would a scout, college or pro go to a HS to see 1 or 2 players when he could go to a showcase and see 40 or 50 elite players.
On most HS teams there are 1 and sometimes only 1/2 a player that really fits the bill of playing past HS. The coach will more than likely take the kid that he feels he could promote the best in order to get that college scholarship so he can pat himself on the back and tell everyone "look what I did for little Johhny, and I can do the same for you". Summer ball at the HS level is a JOKE it's nothing more than a pay check for the coach. Most people are so happy that there kid is on the HS team they will drink all the koolaid the coach serves them!!
In California alot of that states top players have stepped away from HS ball and are playing Elite Travel(showcase) because most of the coaches at the HS level are nothing more than GLORY HOUNDS looking to continue in the lifestyle that has carried them this far which is the local BULLY. These coaches want all these parents to know they are in charge and don't question him or your son will be benched. My sons coach say's he is very approachable and will talk about anything other than playing time. He says if you want to talk about playing time then just turn in the uniform!!!
My son has been offered the chance to play for one of Ga. top elite teams for this summer and this includes games at colleges such as UGA/GA TECH/UNIV. OF TENN/AUBURN UNIV./KENN. ST./GA SOUTHERN/GA ST./MERCER UNIV./GA COLLEGE/NORTH GA/COLUMBUS ST./GA PERIMETER/PIEDMONT COLLEGE/SOUTHERN POLYTECH/OGLETHORPE UNIV./BREWTON PARKER/ARMSTRONG ATLANTIC UNIV so I ask all of you which do you think is better for a kid looking to play past HS? |
Edited by - 10 BB on 02/22/2011 20:47:52 |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 21:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by oldmanmj
I have witnessed what you both may think is impossible or unthinkable at the high school level. Your booster club Pres can say I understand, but your coach can still not pick you to be on the team. Keep both eyes open and you pocket book ready, it is at every program. How they choose to deal with those that don't pay varies at every school.
I've had my eyes open for the last 3 years at my older son's AAAAA HS. Haven't seen what you have I'm glad to report. |
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6bomber
68 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 22:57:33
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| 10bb sounds like the coach isn't flexible. not sure what to do? these are the first group of kids who have grown up playing travelball. i know mine has been playing since 7u (starting 13u), and by his senior year it will probably be better to play showcases than the state finals. i know your situation and it may cause a ripple. a lot of kids are going across town. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 23:49:25
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10-BB LOL you make it sound like agreeing with me is a bad thing hahahahahahaha. 
Within the next 3 years 90% of the kids moving to that next level will be selected from their travel ball teams. I went and watched a high school game this evening. Based on what I saw out of both teams. There was MAYBE 2 D 1 prospects and 2 that may have the opportunity to move past high school baseball based on that game.
Scouts and recruiters can better spend their monies/time hitting the travel baseball tournaments throughout the country and find all the top talent they need.
quote:
Originally posted by 10 BB
G-Man;
I hate to say it but I agree with you, why would a scout, college or pro go to a HS to see 1 or 2 players when he could go to a showcase and see 40 or 50 elite players.
On most HS teams there are 1 and sometimes only 1/2 a player that really fits the bill of playing past HS. The coach will more than likely take the kid that he feels he could promote the best in order to get that college scholarship so he can pat himself on the back and tell everyone "look what I did for little Johhny, and I can do the same for you". Summer ball at the HS level is a JOKE it's nothing more than a pay check for the coach. Most people are so happy that there kid is on the HS team they will drink all the koolaid the coach serves them!!
In California alot of that states top players have stepped away from HS ball and are playing Elite Travel(showcase) because most of the coaches at the HS level are nothing more than GLORY HOUNDS looking to continue in the lifestyle that has carried them this far which is the local BULLY. These coaches want all these parents to know they are in charge and don't question him or your son will be benched. My sons coach say's he is very approachable and will talk about anything other than playing time. He says if you want to talk about playing time then just turn in the uniform!!!
My son has been offered the chance to play for one of Ga. top elite teams for this summer and this includes games at colleges such as UGA/GA TECH/UNIV. OF TENN/AUBURN UNIV./KENN. ST./GA SOUTHERN/GA ST./MERCER UNIV./GA COLLEGE/NORTH GA/COLUMBUS ST./GA PERIMETER/PIEDMONT COLLEGE/SOUTHERN POLYTECH/OGLETHORPE UNIV./BREWTON PARKER/ARMSTRONG ATLANTIC UNIV so I ask all of you which do you think is better for a kid looking to play past HS?
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 00:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballparentof2
The coach for our high school is 100% about the money and who you know. My son went out for pitcher only and when cut he asked him why. 2 reasons he gave him- you didn't pitch well in the tryouts and you should have played summer ball!!! Which as I understand a coach can not make it mandatory for you to play summer ball. As far as he didn't pitch well is BS. He faced the top 7 hitters (he asked to face the top 7). Did not let up a hit. Another kid pitches right after him to the same 7 batters- walks 4 and 3 are hit to the fence. Both are pitchers only. He took the other kid because?????? MONEY and the fact that the kid played summer play (which was more money to the program).
Sucks for my kid because he would have loved to play for his HS and being he is a senior he doesn't have another chance. I am not some parent who just blames other because my kid didn't make it. My kid can pitch. And there are many others from that school that can say this coach is about money, money, money, money. We would have been glad to pay the "dues" when he made the team. But I REFUSED to sign the "PLEDGE" that we would pay well before tryouts.
The fundraiser lady has a son on the team and he is not high school baseball material. He might play 3 innings all season but since his mom is on the board he automatically makes the team. So not right. But it is what it is and my kid will play travel this summer before going off to college.
Would be nice to know what school |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 09:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
10-BB LOL you make it sound like agreeing with me is a bad thing hahahahahahaha.
Within the next 3 years 90% of the kids moving to that next level will be selected from their travel ball teams. I went and watched a high school game this evening. Based on what I saw out of both teams. There was MAYBE 2 D 1 prospects and 2 that may have the opportunity to move past high school baseball based on that game.
Scouts and recruiters can better spend their monies/time hitting the travel baseball tournaments throughout the country and find all the top talent they need.
quote:
Originally posted by 10 BB
G-Man;
I hate to say it but I agree with you, why would a scout, college or pro go to a HS to see 1 or 2 players when he could go to a showcase and see 40 or 50 elite players.
On most HS teams there are 1 and sometimes only 1/2 a player that really fits the bill of playing past HS. The coach will more than likely take the kid that he feels he could promote the best in order to get that college scholarship so he can pat himself on the back and tell everyone "look what I did for little Johhny, and I can do the same for you". Summer ball at the HS level is a JOKE it's nothing more than a pay check for the coach. Most people are so happy that there kid is on the HS team they will drink all the koolaid the coach serves them!!
In California alot of that states top players have stepped away from HS ball and are playing Elite Travel(showcase) because most of the coaches at the HS level are nothing more than GLORY HOUNDS looking to continue in the lifestyle that has carried them this far which is the local BULLY. These coaches want all these parents to know they are in charge and don't question him or your son will be benched. My sons coach say's he is very approachable and will talk about anything other than playing time. He says if you want to talk about playing time then just turn in the uniform!!!
My son has been offered the chance to play for one of Ga. top elite teams for this summer and this includes games at colleges such as UGA/GA TECH/UNIV. OF TENN/AUBURN UNIV./KENN. ST./GA SOUTHERN/GA ST./MERCER UNIV./GA COLLEGE/NORTH GA/COLUMBUS ST./GA PERIMETER/PIEDMONT COLLEGE/SOUTHERN POLYTECH/OGLETHORPE UNIV./BREWTON PARKER/ARMSTRONG ATLANTIC UNIV so I ask all of you which do you think is better for a kid looking to play past HS?
That's all well and good. I think there is a similar dynamic at work in basketball as well. It's not proof that the elite players aren't playing for their schools. How many of the, say, top 20 Seniors in GA aren't playing for their schools because of politics and/or money?
I get that if you are looking to be seen by the scouts, College or Pro, the High School team isn't the venue. I think kids' reasons for playing for their HS don't have a lot to do with getting a scholarship and/or drafted. Can't speak for the dads.
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 09:18:06
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Racgofar, did you pay before your older son played?
This is a good topic to think about before my son ever gets there. Or should I say if he gets there. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2011 : 09:18:53
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There is no question that more scouts come to the summer tournaments than to HS games. However, if your HS team, or the team you are playing has a true player on it, there will be scouts there. Not nearly as many, but they will come. Here's the other thing. If they come to a HS game, there are two teams playing. If they go to a tournament, there may be 200 teams playing. So say there are 100 scouts at the PG tournament. That is roughly 1 scout to 18 kids. (just using 9 kids per team playing). You get two scouts at a HS game, that is one scout per 9 kids. The ratio is actually better at the HS game.
It is also really spotty at some of the big summer tournaments. I'm mostly talking about the PG events, which are the biggest, most highly scouted events out there. These tournaments are spread out over between 25 and 30 fields. You may play some games at the outlying fields and there are NO scouts there. If you play at the ECB complex, you will have a lot more because they can watch 3 games at once (and ECB makes sure their top teams play all their games there). Even at these big events, the scouts are usually there to look at a select group of kids that are on their radar. If you are not one of those kids, you have to hope that you do something, while the right scout is there, to really attract their attention.
So, anyway, I think the big summer tournaments are very important and my son plays all of them. However, I do think HS is important as well. Can you make it without playing on your HS team? If you're good enough, yes - without question. Is there a benefit to playing HS ball? Absolutely. Especially if you play on a team with, or against teams with stud players that colleges and pros are looking at. In either case (summer or HS), you had better make a pretty big impression while the right guy is there or it won't really matter whether you went or not. It is all about performance, skills and attitude.
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Edited by - bballman on 02/23/2011 17:57:32 |
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Topic |
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High School baseball politics ??
