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SMASH
253 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2012 : 13:28:48
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| Thank you bbjunkie! As for our team, we have and always will bat the whole roster(12). Pool play, bracket play, cooperstown, elite world series... you name it, everybody plays! Will it cost us some games? Probably... Will all the kids get better for it? That's the plan. |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 14:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by bbjunkie
Are you serious Spartan? The only thing this does is give kids less playing time for what? A better seed? I can understand some of the top teams doing this in bracket play since they are there to win but to sit kids on the bench during pool play just does not make sense to me. They are 12 and we are supposed to be teaching them every chance we get.
As far as it not being real baseball, that is ridiculous. So there is free substitution and everyone gets to bat. Not really sure how that is a bad thing. When we were 12 we were still playing little league rules with no leading off, no balks, no dropped third strike, pitching from 46', etc.
There is plenty of time in the future that these kids will be sitting on the bench but in my opinion 12 years old is not the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
quote:
Originally posted by BravesFan
Glenn,
I've been known to surprise some folks with my clever whits, every once in a while I do have an original thought. Money 9 is a relative term though, you may sit a kid the 1st 3 innings then bring him into to pitch so is he a money 9 player? Probably but you will now see more strategy involved with this age group then ever before. Now, many teams will just bat everyone and let the chips fall where they may but i am willing to bet about half will bat 9 players in pool like real baseball.
I wish the rest of the baseball world could figure this out!!!
bbjunkie and smash,
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with batting all 12, 13,14 or 15 kids on your roster you do realize that some of these kids are 7th graders and HS is around the corner. How many 13U teams roster bat? At some point you need to teach the kids that they need to work hard and earn their playing time rather then it being a given. What incentive does a kid have to practice hard and give 100% effort and is it fair to the other kids if you have 2-3 kids batting .165 the whole season?
This is a perfect example of the reasons why some parents prefer to play on certain teams because they know that lil john will get to bat and play the field every game and some prefer to play higher level baseball. All about the coaches and parents understanding before the season starts how games will be approached in pool and bracket. Myself, I prefer to bat most in pool where you can and then go 9/10 on Sundays when the money players need to play. Opinions will vary and to each his own, bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer to this question. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 14:24:45
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I understood it at 8 and 9 maybe 10...Now not so much, especially when you are paying $500+ per tourney I don't understand why you wouldn't want to play as many games as possible(extra 1hr 45 minutes per game should get everyone an extra AB or inning in the field)...This isn't really an issue like it was a few years ago because teams have gotten much stronger and most of the teams don't have a bottom third that doesn't produce...BTW I'm not saying you shouldn't allow everyone to get playing time, last season our team hit 10 for most of the season and IMO it worked. Everyone ended up getting in 99% of the games and it allowed our better pitchers to rest up before and after they were on the mound. Regarding the Elites, that is the ONLY time I have ever seen my nephew show any signs of exhaustion or having a problem with the heat. The rag or frog rag that he used would go from freezing in a cooler to lukewarm in just a few minutes. He appreciated any break he got that week with the avg daytime temps in the mid 90s(August in Orlando is horrible)...We had depth at every position and it still didn't matter, I'm glad we were able to get fresh legs in the game.
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 14:37:53
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| BRAVES FAN WE DO NO SEE EYE TO EYE ON A LOT OF THINGS BUT THIS TIME WE DO. I DO NOT WANT MY SON GIVEN ANYTHING LET HIM EARN IT. IF PARENTS STOP WRITING THE CHECKS FOR LITTLE JOHNNY TO PLAY THEN THE KIDS WILL LEARN HOW TO EARN THEIR PLAYING TIME. IF YOU WANT TO BAT 15 AND PLAY 15 GO PLAY REC. BALL. AGAIN BRAVES FAN AND SPARTAN 4 THANK YOU |
Edited by - ONE WAY on 03/02/2012 15:12:11 |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 15:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
BRAVES FAN WE DO NO SEE EYE TO EYE ON A LOT OF THINGS BUT THIS TIME WE DO. I DO NOT WANT MY SON GIVEN ANYTHING LET HIM EARN IT. IF PARENTS STOP WRITING THE CHECKS FOR LITTLE JOHNNY TO PLAY THEN THE KIDS WILL LEARN HOW TO EARN THEIR PLAYING TIME. IF YOU WANT TO BAT 15 AND PLAY 15 GO PLAY REC. BALL. AGAIN BRAVES FAN AND SPARTAN 4 THANK YOU
ONEWAY,
There is time to come my way, the force will be with you once you do. I only preach through personal experience and know a thing or two about this racket. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 15:52:16
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| There is no right answer here. If the coach keeps his word, it's whatever he communicated at the beginning of the season to his team that matters. Not sure why so many people care what other teams do. Every team has its mission statement, and there are all kinds of teams at different stages of the development & performance spectrum. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 16:08:16
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Great topic. I play the field with 8 guys some times to prove a point to the kids. Wish I had 12 to Bat...haha. In the end batting 9 is probably better. IF a big IF, you give the kids sitting times to play in games where they are one of the 9 players. The key I think many overlook is the # of AB's you get reduced by batting 3 more kids, usually not the strongest hitters. So instead of 3-4 AB's a game you are reducing them to 2. 2 AB's a game hurts the whole team.
Be honest with your kids and parents, and tell them the truth. Give the kids chances to redeem themselves and tell them they may only get a few chances this year.
Rain Rain Go Away!!!! |
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rudeboy
37 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 16:50:17
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| ONE WAY what team does your son/nephew play on? The Astros right? |
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 17:08:00
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I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks 12U baseball is "higher level baseball" is completely misguided. Is it much better than 11? Usually it's where the rubber meets the road. Is it competitive? Yes. But is it higher level? Hardly particularly when we know the stats of how many of these kids won't even come close to their high school team or anything beyond.
Everyone always want to blame the parents for putting Lil Johnny on the team. Where is the coach's responsibility/accountability when he puts Lil Johnny on the team when he is no better than a rec ball player?
We go through the same thing on this forum week after week. We make the same predictions for the same few teams to end up in the finals. We tell others how to coach because we all know better than the next guy. We talk about pick up players and bash the coaches that have them. We brag on the same "studs" or sympathize and make excuses when they don't perform. Blah, Blah, Blah!
IT'S 12U BASEBALL FOLKS!
quote:
Originally posted by BravesFan
quote:
Originally posted by bbjunkie
Are you serious Spartan? The only thing this does is give kids less playing time for what? A better seed? I can understand some of the top teams doing this in bracket play since they are there to win but to sit kids on the bench during pool play just does not make sense to me. They are 12 and we are supposed to be teaching them every chance we get.
As far as it not being real baseball, that is ridiculous. So there is free substitution and everyone gets to bat. Not really sure how that is a bad thing. When we were 12 we were still playing little league rules with no leading off, no balks, no dropped third strike, pitching from 46', etc.
There is plenty of time in the future that these kids will be sitting on the bench but in my opinion 12 years old is not the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
quote:
Originally posted by BravesFan
Glenn,
I've been known to surprise some folks with my clever whits, every once in a while I do have an original thought. Money 9 is a relative term though, you may sit a kid the 1st 3 innings then bring him into to pitch so is he a money 9 player? Probably but you will now see more strategy involved with this age group then ever before. Now, many teams will just bat everyone and let the chips fall where they may but i am willing to bet about half will bat 9 players in pool like real baseball.
I wish the rest of the baseball world could figure this out!!!
bbjunkie and smash,
While I agree that there is nothing wrong with batting all 12, 13,14 or 15 kids on your roster you do realize that some of these kids are 7th graders and HS is around the corner. How many 13U teams roster bat? At some point you need to teach the kids that they need to work hard and earn their playing time rather then it being a given. What incentive does a kid have to practice hard and give 100% effort and is it fair to the other kids if you have 2-3 kids batting .165 the whole season?
This is a perfect example of the reasons why some parents prefer to play on certain teams because they know that lil john will get to bat and play the field every game and some prefer to play higher level baseball. All about the coaches and parents understanding before the season starts how games will be approached in pool and bracket. Myself, I prefer to bat most in pool where you can and then go 9/10 on Sundays when the money players need to play. Opinions will vary and to each his own, bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer to this question.
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 21:18:17
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@bballnut,
let me explain my point, I've already said I could care less if a team wants to bat their whole team, that is on them and what they want to do. But for those who are playing on major teams, I think most of these parents expect a different strategy in how the games are approched. Now there is a team or two in majors that bats everyone but for the most part they all bat 9/10 kids each game. This is what I mean by a higher level, it's not a means to look down at AAA/AA teams cause there are some great kids and coaches at all levels. Playing 12's is not a higher level but guess what?? The big field is around the corner and then it's gets serious so let's not ignore what is around the corner cause by then you'll be passed by already.
Sincerely, Bravesfan |
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 22:20:31
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Bravesfan, I get that, but since we are talking about Majors teams, shouldn't all of the players be ready to compete and contribute? Isn't that the coach's responsibility when selecting his team. Too often because the pickings get slim, coaches just add a player to their roster who was no more a Majors player at tryouts than he is in a game/tournament. Where is his accountability/responsibility to that child/parent? I'm not saying I believe in playing patsy with everyone, but the coaches have to share in the consequences of their decisions. I've seen teams take their time to find the right player, because they are looking for Majors players. Kudos to those coaches who are trying to get it right so that this becomes less of an issue.
Certainly, these rules will be changing right around the corner. All the more reason to get it right and set these kids up to be successful.quote:
Originally posted by BravesFan
@bballnut,
let me explain my point, I've already said I could care less if a team wants to bat their whole team, that is on them and what they want to do. But for those who are playing on major teams, I think most of these parents expect a different strategy in how the games are approched. Now there is a team or two in majors that bats everyone but for the most part they all bat 9/10 kids each game. This is what I mean by a higher level, it's not a means to look down at AAA/AA teams cause there are some great kids and coaches at all levels. Playing 12's is not a higher level but guess what?? The big field is around the corner and then it's gets serious so let's not ignore what is around the corner cause by then you'll be passed by already.
Sincerely, Bravesfan
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BangTheBox
121 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 23:33:10
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It all boils down to what the goal of the team is. Many teams are out to develop kids in life and the game. Some coaches are all ego driven. Some teams and coaches are all about the hardware and so called 'winning respect'. Some coaches bring in the next big stud and let the last player on the the totem pole be darned. Who cares this is still kids play being manipulated by adults. We all need to take a step back and let the kids and ourselves enjoy the show that is put on for us on the playing canvas.
No matter what the future holds for our youngsters we need to prepare them and ourselves that there will be a "last" game for them at some point. The futures of many of them will be tied to being coaches and successful in other sports and life arenas to be determined. The odds are that if you take the current best Major team from any state there will be only one player on average that will play Div One. Better to focus on grades and be more attractive to the coaches in college in the long run. I am proud that my older son used to have to choose between playing on some days and the debate team. He is now a Malpractice attorney in the great state of Alabama. |
Edited by - BangTheBox on 03/03/2012 08:26:38 |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 23:56:02
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| Braves Fan hear we go again we see eye to eye on this one too. Rudboy does it really matter what team he plays on and no not the Astros OK. The point is why would a parent have a child play on a major team when they no he is a rec-ball player,or why would a coach pick a kid for his team just to say he plays on the east cobb BRAVES RAYS LONGHORNS ASTROS.Why would you put a kid in a position to fail? If I new my son was not at a level to play MAJOR AAA AA or what every I would not put him in that situation.Parents know what level their child can play at so do not put it on the coach.Like Braves Fan said the field next year will pass a lot of kids by and if it passes my son by I will not put him on a team to just say he plays for XYZ at east cobb. If every DAD did not want to coach a team at east cobb (his son)the talent would not be so watered down because their would be less teams. |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 07:51:00
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bballnut, imo all players at any level should be ready to compete and contribute. It is the coaches responsibility to pick his team but as many know some kids are try out wonders who can't seem to put it together in a game and there are plenty of other out there that are better suited for other positions but mom and dad want him to play SS so now your in a pickle. I think most would agree with they always try and make the right choice but sometimes those choices don't workout for whatever reason, the fit for both parties has to be there. That is why you see some kids change teams in the fall and early spring, they didn't feel the love and it's time to get courted again.
this topic has morphed into another one and that's fine cause this is a worthy subject, it's no different when a major league team makes a trade for a player and don't produce or develop like they hoped. I see many teams take kids on potential like in college, they are projecting their down the road. |
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JMO
174 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 09:21:25
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| All games cancelled this weekend, 12u age group |
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SOGAS
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 10:14:41
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Right on Bangthebox. There will be a "last game" and for some it will come sooner than later and as a parent that day will leave you with a sad feeling of what will we do. Put them in an enviroment to enjoy the game because it won't last forever. Baseball should be fun to anyone who plays it. I think the difference in rec ball vs travel is with ones desire to compete. Rec ball is just that, a chance for kids of all skill levels to go out an play the game, get exercise and have a slushie with their buds. Nothing wrong with that. I think travel players are driven more by a desire to compete in a game that they love.
We all want our kids to be the best that they can be but what we need to be careful of that at the younger ages is that we do not take the fun out of it. I've seen coaches running there practices for 10 years old like high school and college programs and if your kids truely enjoys that then o for it. Sure those kids will be getting advanced teachings in most cases but as a parent you better monitor the "burnout" factor. Burnout is nothing more than losing the love of the game because it's not fun anymore. It's not because they played to much etc. etc. etc. it is because it's not fun to them anymore. Once a kid gets to about the 13 or 14 year old level then he either has a passion for it or he does not and at about that age is where they begin to know more than mom or dad ever knew so for many, they don't mind telling you they ain't playing anymore. At the younger ages, they just want to please you and are to scared to go against your will. Put your ego's behind and don't let it stand between you and your kid. |
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doubleplay11
45 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:00:58
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| Most play travel over rec because they want player development. Those that think that every kid needs to bat and every kid needs to play every position that they want so that the kids have to be rotated every inning will never see the development they want. 12 year olds are old enough to know that if they want to play they have to work for it. Just the same, when little Johnny makes a mistake by being lazy he should have to sit. There should be consequences. Just like in school. If you want an A you have to do the work. |
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BangTheBox
121 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 11:26:05
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Most who want development are the parents. A 12 year old calls it getting better. Putting work in can come in rec ball or travel or in home ec! Kids at 12 should still be being rotated even in travel whenever possible because even when Little East Cobb Travel Ball Stud Johnny gets to HS extreme chances are that he will not be the best at his current position and will need additional tools in order to contribute and make the team.
There is a place for everything in baseball. Parents need to take the step back and make sure they have fun, good coaching for life not just the game. It is our job to foster and keep them in a great environment even if it is playing the fiddle down on a river bank. |
Edited by - BangTheBox on 03/03/2012 11:37:57 |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BangTheBox
Most who want development are the parents. A 12 year old calls it getting better. Putting work in can come in rec ball or travel or in home ec! Kids at 12 should still be being rotated even in travel whenever possible because even when Little East Cobb Travel Ball Stud Johnny gets to HS extreme chances are that he will not be the best at his current position and will need additional tools in order to contribute and make the team.
Last time I checked with my 12yr olds, they wanted to go out and win some games because they come out on weekends and want to win just as much as many of the parents. Also, development comes from reps in practice and not actual games.
If you compare playing time in other travel sports it's very consistent with the stronger players getting a majority of the minutes. Also, last time I checked the HS roster, most came from strong travel ball programs so the chances of stud johnny making the team over rotation feel good johnny are much better. |
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doubleplay11
45 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:31:40
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| Bang, by player development I just meant some players don't want to be on a team at this age where the SS lets the ball go by because he isn't moving to the ball or the player can't throw the not perfect throw to 1st that needs to be scooped because the 1st baseman isn't going to get it and he doesn't want to be blamed. Some players are ready to be past this and work together as a team. They want everyone to do their job. Not having that can lead to frustration and burnout also. High school is a long way away lots of time to learn multiple positions. They don't have to all be learned in one season. I am not going to bash East Cobb either, much less any other parks. |
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BangTheBox
121 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 12:51:30
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Not doubting they all want to win. My older one did and my current 12 yr old does currently. Agreed development comes from reps but also games and watching ball games on TV or in person. We tend as parents and coaches to be myopic when it comes to playing time.
No matter what Johnny one chooses, the fact is that there is a JOHNNY who has not to date picked up a baseball and cannot spell it in our native toungue that will be playing HS ball over all our kids. Let's call him Juanito. Past and current success is not indicative of future results. Also, politics still plays a part in HS and Mid School baseball. There are countless players overlooked despite being better than many. Political and monetary sway will always be around as long as avarice is a word. Heck even many "rotation feel good" johnnies make it over studs for the wrong reasons. Mind you I feel that HS and MS should pick teams based on talent and not the political means. I feel 12 years of age is the make it or break year for the boys to start focusing but it is not completely vital to settle on one position. My older son was recruited for college at SS and wound up a catcher. He started his Freshman year due to an injury to the Senior catcher and all because he came from a "rotational" system that allowed him multiple skilss to showcase on the diamond.
We can only preach hard work and for them to give 100 per cent. I for one want my kid and players to be great at anything and based on the odds, and my "rotational" creedo, I teach them to focus on grades then on the fun stuff. I can guarantee that my players in the "rotational" yet competitive system we run would score highly on a baseball IQ test. My catchers have called thier own games since fall of 10u. They have learned from mistakes as well as thier great play.
Ironically my "rotational" system found another phenominal catcher because he wanted to try it out after he saw how much fun the other catchers had trying to call thier own games and fool batters. At that he only plays the position every third game and does not catch the entire game to reduce knee stress.
It is 12 yr old Baseball for Pete's sake we are not solving world peace or hunger. Although, our kids did volunteer at the local homeless shelter this winter as part of thier 15 community service hours we ask them to fullfill each fall and spring season.
[/quote]Last time I checked with my 12yr olds, they wanted to go out and win some games because they come out on weekends and want to win just as much as many of the parents. Also, development comes from reps in practice and not actual games.
If you compare playing time in other travel sports it's very consistent with the stronger players getting a majority of the minutes. Also, last time I checked the HS roster, most came from strong travel ball programs so the chances of stud johnny making the team over rotation feel good johnny are much better.
[/quote] |
Edited by - BangTheBox on 03/03/2012 16:20:16 |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 13:30:23
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A lot of these parents think that game time equals development. Wrong, tons, tons (let me say that again) and tons of reps equal great technique combined with success from pitching, hitting and fielding. Wouldn't play for a team that you didn't have to earn your own way! Honestly, you have to earn your way in life NO matter what it is you do! No better way to learn this life lesson than playing a game you truly love and have passion for. These kids have to learn that there not ENTITLED to anything and if they REALLY want something (no matter what it is) they will have to work very hard for it. Most adults, not all, aren't babied and coddled there whole life??
quote:
Originally posted by BravesFan
quote:
Originally posted by BangTheBox
Most who want development are the parents. A 12 year old calls it getting better. Putting work in can come in rec ball or travel or in home ec! Kids at 12 should still be being rotated even in travel whenever possible because even when Little East Cobb Travel Ball Stud Johnny gets to HS extreme chances are that he will not be the best at his current position and will need additional tools in order to contribute and make the team.
Last time I checked with my 12yr olds, they wanted to go out and win some games because they come out on weekends and want to win just as much as many of the parents. Also, development comes from reps in practice and not actual games.
If you compare playing time in other travel sports it's very consistent with the stronger players getting a majority of the minutes. Also, last time I checked the HS roster, most came from strong travel ball programs so the chances of stud johnny making the team over rotation feel good johnny are much better.
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 14:05:37
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Actually, it will be the kid that learned from a early age nothing will be given to him or her and if they want to be the best they will have to work VERY hard for it. It will be the kid that learned early on he wasn't entitled to any position but had to earn his way on the field and in the line up. This same kid will also understand sitting the bench at times. Believe me he doesn't have to come from EC to have and understand these simple life lessons that will help make him or her very successful!
This theory of its the parents ego is such a joke! I have three kids and each one has a different personality. One could care less if she wins. The other will die trying to be the best and drags me along. The third I haven't figured out yet? Each kid is different so it's good there's soooo many teams and levels and approaches for baseball in this city.
quote:
Originally posted by BangTheBox
Most who want development are the parents. A 12 year old calls it getting better. Putting work in can come in rec ball or travel or in home ec! Kids at 12 should still be being rotated even in travel whenever possible because even when Little East Cobb Travel Ball Stud Johnny gets to HS extreme chances are that he will not be the best at his current position and will need additional tools in order to contribute and make the team.
There is a place for everything in baseball. Parents need to take the step back and make sure they have fun, good coaching for life not just the game. It is our job to foster and keep them in a great environment even if it is playing the fiddle down on a river bank.
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BangTheBox
121 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 17:06:59
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I never said anything about not working hard. In our system all the players know who the best is at each position. They get a chance most every game/practice to prove they can play at that level. We are a Maj team out of Fla that wins consistently. Of course we have not beaten the Team FLA or CFGs but then again this year we have not matched up against them. And then again we do not fly kids all over the place to get to a tourney. We may get our shot next weekend. I think you guys have one EC team coming down.
Our boys actually rotate at practice and have to mentor and teach thier position to the team. It takes 15 - 20 minutes. And is a great tool. |
Edited by - BangTheBox on 03/03/2012 17:08:21 |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 17:49:34
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That will be there first tournament next weekend in N FL S-NIT. You should come to gulf shores S-NIT (end of march) and you will see the top four EC teams battling to win against whoever else shows up??? We will also enjoy a little beach time.
BangTheBox, hope you can make it? I guess it's about half way? It will be fun! I'll bring extra beer.
quote:
Originally posted by BangTheBox
I never said anything about not working hard. In our system all the players know who the best is at each position. They get a chance most every game/practice to prove they can play at that level. We are a Maj team out of Fla that wins consistently. Of course we have not beaten the Team FLA or CFGs but then again this year we have not matched up against them. And then again we do not fly kids all over the place to get to a tourney. We may get our shot next weekend. I think you guys have one EC team coming down.
Our boys actually rotate at practice and have to mentor and teach thier position to the team. It takes 15 - 20 minutes. And is a great tool.
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Edited by - Gwinnett on 03/03/2012 18:09:45 |
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