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ducktape6
12 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2010 : 22:06:22
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Mad Skills,
To answer your question ..... Yes you should add players to your team in the fall that will improve your team and cut those that do not fit or who have not performned to expectations. To justfy my thoughts I would like to make a few points first: 1. This should only be done in the fall not after Nov 1st 2. Travel ball coaches should not be afraid to cut players. To much time, energy, and money is put into travel ball not to have emphasis on winning. If a kid does not fit into your Sunday plans while you are 200 miles from home then he should not be on your team. 3. In todays youth baseball things change everyday so if you have a chance to improve your roster then you should, because you can bet your last dollar that if one of these parents get what they think is a better offer, fees paid, call my son "Rocket" (Still LMAO), or the starting Short Stop position ..... They are gone!!!!!!
In addition I dont think it is ever to early to teach a kid that his performance on the field is what will secure your spot on any given team. Every team is not for every kid. I see people talk about how important it is for kids at this age to get reps ...... Then why is it a crime for coaches to cut kids from a team where he will get limited reps. And parents why cant you accept being cut in the fall gracefully rather than raise cain in the spring when your kid is not playing on Sunday. I consider my kid to be a pretty good ball player needs improvement as all do but I contacted a few coaches about my kid coming to ECB and all but 1 coach without saying cut my kid before we even stepped on the field, he didnt fit into their plans, but we finally landed and its a much better fit than the others would have been as far as my kids future development and I am ok with the choices that both sides made. |
Edited by - ducktape6 on 09/27/2010 22:09:04 |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 09:51:45
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Ducktape6, the method of cutting players and picking up new ones who are perceived to be better has not always worked and in the long run can be detrimental to a team/managers long term success in attracting talent. This is especially true in the younger age groups but once you get to 13 or older then it becomes more common but at 9, 10 or 11 that is too young to start cutting/picking up players. At some point, there needs to be some development of players since anyone can just recruit a better player.
If you look at some of the top major teams over the past few years and please correct me if I'm wrong, very few have cut/picked up players in the fall for a lack of on the field performance. Now, a few may have been cut due to difference in philosophy or the parents/coaches not getting along. Players and parents on these team never feel settled, always looking over their shoulder to see if someone else is coming to practice and thus they put pressure on the kid to play better or else... and these are the same teams that end up folding because nobody wants to play there. I'm a little old school but if I give my word to a manager that my son will play for his team next season then that is what will happen, switching teams because this coach promised this or that is not the right message to send to your kids. The problem is, parents and coaches are taking this way too serious at the younger age groups then the players are.
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ecball
72 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:17:36
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Nate - stop it already, you are making too much sense! I can't wait to see the teams "duckin and dodgin" the Longhorn's this year (LOL).
As for try-outs, things are changing for the coaches as the boys get older. There is much less "trying out" going on during the off-season and more "trying out" during the season. I have seen almost all of these kids play 10 or 20 games over two years so I don't need to work them out for 30 minutes to see if they are a good fit. Parents usually contact coaches around late May, early June and say "will you look at my boy for next year". This is the best way for both sides as coaches get to watch the kids in game action, call pitches against that kid and watch how the parents interact with there boy during games. Some know all of this already but you would be surprised as to how many folks don't know how this really works.
As for taking kids and then cutting them because you found a better player....That's dicey at best. There will always be a better player out there - ALWAYS....so when does it end? If you tell the kids that fall ball is really just extended try-outs then it's fine to cut kids but you have to remember if you cut a kid now, he probably turned down other offers to join your team and is now out in the cold trying to find a good fit. Not an easy task. Plus, what are we teaching our kids? Always look for a BBD.....Nobody in high school liked the BBD (bigger and better deal) girl. Now, we as coaches are teaching them to always look for a better deal because that's what we do as adults? Where is the one year commitment on both sides? This type of stuff only further enhances parents asking for a "contract" with terms for their kid. By cutting one kid and giving into demands of parents, it only enhances parents sense of entitlement and they overestimate their child's worth as a player. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 11:30:27
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| Agree with you, Mad. Ducktape must be talking about the older age groups. My oldest is 11, so I don't yet have the experience at the older age groups to know how my thinking will change at those ages. Certainly in the 9/10/11 age groups I would hope that both coaches and parents honor their commitments. Now, if both parties agree things aren't working, that's different. But, once I select a player, I plan to coach him, good or bad, until season's end. Sometimes those kids that are the biggest challenge end up being the most rewarding experiences. Sometimes not, as I have already experienced, but in that case I coached the kid up all the way until the final game, then we parted ways. For me, I will appreciate this coming season all the more because I had that experience. |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 14:25:57
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| Wasn't the downfall of Team ECB the constant recruiting of players? They must of had a new kid at practice each week, I know that no less then 18 kids had played with them as a 9U team and low and behold nobody wanted to play with them at 10U. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 14:37:57
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| Well I think some will disagree with me again, but why have the kid that is subpar on your team when he doesn't fit your plans???? I agree that you should honor your one year commitment but why drag it in to multiple years?? We played with a team a little bit this summer who had a kid on the team that just flat out couldn't make a play....Ground ball or pop up he just couldn't catch the ball.....How is he helping that team??? Does every pitcher on the team cringe when a ball gets put in play??? I know mine did, one tourney he had 7 balls hit at him and made 6 errors....I don't see how you develop that...You can only blame so many errors on "tough hops". The Braves added/cut kids this year, the 11U Bandits added/cut kids, the Bay Bombers 11U were a top 10 team in the nation and they took their best and the Lynn Haven Longhorns best and put a true elite team on the field. It is going to happen every year and you can bet the teams that make additions will get stronger every single year. At this level you should find more and better talent and develop that talent, there is a reason these organizations have classifications. |
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ducktape6
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 14:48:13
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Its is interesting how we use the terms "Taking it to serious," "Older age groups," when making tough decisions. Mike with all do respect you dont really factor into alot of these discussions because you have done an excellent job managing your team the last few years and learning from others mitakes. Not to mention when you are the #1 team in the state you get first choice and everyone else for lack of a better term get your scraps. So with that in mind if I were a head coach I would surely use fall ball as an extended tryout because we all know that rosters are usually not solid until January and money has changed hands. So finding a team after October is not as hard as we try to make it seem.
Now lets be real people we do take this stuff too serious but the fact remains that we havent changed since T-Ball so why not teach your kid hard lessons and the ways of the world now. Dont blame me for being able to look in the mirror and see the truth and be willing to say it. SS Buckeye dont know who you are but PARENTS nor COACHES honor commitments and "player development," what do you do?????? Take up half of the precious 1hr 30min alloted time at the "Lovely" EC facilities to teach little "Rocket" who I thought could catch a fly ball in the last inning of a tie ball game against the #6 team in the southeast. Or keep him on my roster and maybe develop during the week and bench him on Sunday.
I speak mostly specifics and facts ..... All of us who are playing travel ball have some misguided belief that our kid will play at the next level and we all are driven by media. Im not the only one who read that Jason Heyward was first seen playing a 12U game at East Cobb. We have coaches sponsoring players (Paying for players)...... so as one 11U ECB parent put it so eloquently ...... and I quote "I do not metaphoricaly or literally believe in Socialism an economic system where mediocrity is rewarded.....But Capitalism fosters and incentivizes a desire for excellence, BASEBALL at THIS age is a competitive BALLPARK."
If I am coaching against that mentality I better be willing to improve my roster at the expense of a lessor talented player. In closing think about this ..... If you coach 11U at East Cobb, 643, Atlanta Blue Jays, Home Plate and others there is a 95% chance that your days are now numbered as a head coach, you might make it to 13U but after that the "PAID" coaches take over.....How many are you are willing to leave a losing legacy or better than that how many of your parents are going to give YOU credit for "DEVELOPING" their child.........
P.S. Mike no need to duck and dodge now ...... mission accomplished 7 Yard Dogs up 75N .......With muzzles! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2010 : 23:37:18
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| Dang DuckTape......That is post of the day two consecutive days......Keep it up!!!! |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 00:08:38
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Ducktape, I coach an 11u team, but I confess that my experience thus far is much different than yours. I suspect the experiences you're drawing from must occur at the major level. Since my team is at best a low AAA team, I'm guessing things operate a little differently down here. While all of my parents like to win, we're not obsessed by it. I'm not coaching to develop a legacy or bring home as much hardware as possible. I just want my son and the other 9-10 boys on the team to be set up to play HS ball if their innate talent allows. When you go into this crazy thing called travel baseball with that as your primary objective, then the issues you raise don't really occur. At least I haven't witnessed that. And, if you have a kid who struggles, you do your best with him while you have him and have a tough conversation at season's end.
I acknowledge that coaching at the elite/major level like a top-level ECB team likely comes with its own set of unique challenges and pressures, which I am certainly glad I don't have to deal with. If there's really that much irrational activity occurring, it's enough to keep me happily where I am with my oldest son and as my younger boys move their way up the ranks over the coming years.
Andy Young
Milton Nationals |
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bankerheel
34 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 10:34:35
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SS Buckeye,
Couldn't agree with you more. I think you can draw some general conclusions that the focus on winning hardware comes from coaches that A.) Want to live vicarioulsy through there own son(s) in order to win or excel at baseball because they didn't when they were growing up. B) They miss the "winning" aspect of their old playing days and are trying to relive that feeling of winning through coaching 11 year olds.
As I said in my first post, recruiting or focusing on winning the hardware at this age doesn't measure up in my eyes vs. developing kids to be the best they can be while playing travel ball competition. |
Edited by - bankerheel on 09/29/2010 13:52:08 |
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WGT
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 13:59:06
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| DuckTape,Completey disagree with your statement. If you have this philosophy as a Coach then you will never have any respect for your weakest player/players. If you agree to bring a kid on to your team for the season, and he and his parents get along with the rest of the team and parents, then it IS your responsibility to Coach him just as you would the rest of the players(IMHO). Also, referring to kids as "scraps" could definitely rub some parents the wrong way. It's ok to take this stuff way too seriously or not but there has to respect in order to teach a player anything about baseball or life. |
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ducktape6
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 15:33:31
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WGT, Bankerheel, SS Buckeye,
You guys make yourself very clear but there are a few things that you must know .... First of all Im not a coach .... I am a Ex Coach, now parent, who has been watching the make-up of Major level basbeball for the past 5 years. My views and philosophys are "Opinions," but they have been developed by watching, listening and studying the actions of baseball parents, coaches and organizations around the Southeast. Now you local, AAA, AA guys I dont expect you to agree or understand. But one thing I will tell you being an Ex College athlete as well as being the distributor of a local High School sports magazine.....If you are depending solely on these volunteer dad coaches to develop your kid, as well as if you think that the paid coaches at ECB, Homeplate, 643 are going to want your kid who has never played Major ball, had to overcome tryouts, getting cut or the mental grind of an 60-80 game season, playing for a National or for that matter a State or park championship..... the percentage is low.
Maybe up north you guys dont call it cutting players or the eloquent quote I shared with you is an isolated parent mentality but as I said dont blame me its the nature of the beast. And one last thing championship teams are not built with "WEAK" players or players that dont fit. As a coach you should not be handcuffed and have to carry a kid that cant help your team, even if you find out after bringing him on. As I said before reps are what is important at this age group and there are no playing time rules in Travel Baseball. I have seen more teams break up over playing time, positions and winning, so why not fix the problem before it starts. Banker you said coaches and parents are living through thier kids ..... what about the parents of the kids who are not major caliber players and the parents know it but will not bow out gracefully and expect a coach to play the kid on Sunday at the expense of the sucess of the team. whats wrong with that picture. The money would be better spent on lessons than travel ball team fees.....Lessons I said .... thats where "Development," is done "Practice," at the Major level is where development is polished and "Games," is where development is displayed.....My Experience
PS....If I offended anyone other than Mr. WGT with the "Scrap" comment I apologize my son didnt make the Braves either......lol |
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WGT
24 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 16:55:34
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| Never tried out for the Braves. Don't even know the coach. I do know that you don't have to play "Majors" to make a high-school team. Kids can still develop enough skills at the AA or AAA level for this. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2010 : 21:55:40
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I respect your opinion, Ducktape, even if I disagree with some of it. You're coming at it from a different perspective, and you have several more years of experience with travel ball than I do. That said, one of the flaws in your argument is that all kids are striving to play at ECB, or need to play at ECB in order to get noticed or play high school ball. Certainly, having ECB on the resume helps, but I'm pretty sure that the kids on my team will get a fair shot to play baseball at Alpharetta HS or Milton HS, if they're good enough. I played D1 ball, and I didn't play on a team like they have at ECB. Of course, things have changed over the years, but you can't argue that kids who play on development-minded travel baseball teams, be they AA, AAA or major, will be as well positioned as they can individually be for that first tryout freshman year. I would offer that kids who are playing 90 game seasons at 9u and 10u are more likely to burn out on the sport than those that do not. Some kids can take that workload, but many cannot. I suspect that many of the kids who can take that load migrate naturally to ECB and similar programs, so it's probably less negatively impactful for players on those teams, but maybe not. But for the rest of us that kind of schedule is not worth the risk. At the end of the day, the parents are on the hook to know what's best for their son. As a parent/coach, I choose to take a different path than you. Time will tell if it is the right path.
I suspect we are each pretty set in our views, so it probably does not make sense to continue the dialog much longer, but I do appreciate the civil tone of the discussions here. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 01:39:22
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| I can see both sides of the argument, for me I want mine seeing the best pitching he can possibly see until he plays HS ball. I know for a fact the best chance at him seeing great pitching consistently is at the major level. He is not what you would call a great hitter but he still hit well over .700 during AAA play last season. Under .400 for major, also stealing bases was for the most part an absolute joke at the AAA level. I think the game is more consistent with what he will see later in life at the major level. Agree that the 80-90 game per season workload isn't for everyone, I am just lucky my nephew only thinks baseball. If we aren't at the park he is playing wiffle ball, watching MLB, or at worst playing PlayStation (95% MLB the Show). The biggest negative I see with the major classification is there are WAY WAY WAY more AAA team out there, and sanctioning bodies really cater to those teams and major touneys are harder to find. And until USSSA has more major tourneys I think we will see the same teams sandbagging and picking individual tourneys they know they can win. Which a few teams did last year and for the most part everybody knows how they would compete against the big boys. |
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 09:21:46
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Andy, Ducktape is not saying someone needs to play @ ECB to get that kind of exposure. For the top kids with pro pr collegiate potential, I think there are too many positives but that's a discussion much later down the line. A good player that develops over time should get a shot at HS ball no matter what program they play.
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 12:17:57
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| Spartan, if your nephew hit .700 at the AAA level and is not considered a good hitter, then I want my boys to be equally bad hitters!!!! |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 13:08:47
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Certainly there are many very good reasons to play at ECB. No question. Additionally, we are all very fortunate that we have such an organization in our close proximity, if for no other reason than having the chance to play at such a great facility a few times per year. But, there are only so many spots, and many families are not willing to interrupt their lives to make that regular commute, so that's where the rest of us fill a void. No right or wrong approach there. Don't mean to imply in any way that this is an ECB vs. everyone else discussion. It's not!
And, I agree that the major teams who got to see a lot of curve balls last year are that much better prepared for HS ball, but there's still time for our boys to learn that skill. And, if a can kid can play at a higher level and face better players, then they should do so. Our team is AA/AAA, because that is our current performance (not necessarily talent) level. We plan to play in AAA and even some open tournaments this year for the same reason that others play majors, which is to expose our kids to better play. Most of our boys are not as far along in their development as Spartan's nephew and most of the top ECB kids, so we're taking a more measured approach than a major team might, but the concept is similar with a few notable exceptions that we've already discussed ad nauseum. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 13:24:40
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| I think hitting at that level was much much easier for him, he just sat on a fastball EVERY SINGLE PITCH.....I think we saw less than 10% breaking pitches while playing AAA, and who knows how many hooks we saw playing major. We lost the championship game in a Triple Crown tourney and I think as a team we might have seen 20% fastballs, everything else was a curve. He went from hitting 3rd or 4th to hitting lead-off. Of course adding JB halfway through the season pretty much insured his time hitting 4th was over...lol But seriously our team average went down at least .200 when we started playing against major talent last season. Another factor is errors on balls put in play don't help or hurt your average, I can assure you he hit a BUNCH of balls last year that would have been easy outs for better fielders but I'll take it every single time he gets on base. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 14:39:20
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| .700 is good in REC ball! He must be quite a player! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 15:05:47
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Thank you very much, he is hitting less than .200 this fall!!! I hope my post didn't come across as me bragging on him, anybody that knows me will tell you I am way too hard on him. I was just trying to describe the difference between the classifications in my opinion. This last season was the first time we have played within his age group, we have always played up but seeing some of these kids are much much farther along in puberty I don't really see any advantage in making him feel out of place. If he had better size then that is where we would be. Also, like I said before when 3 out of 10 trips to the plate you hit the ball right at somebody and they make an error your batting average doesn't really suffer like it should. I'm not 100% positive because I didn't keep the book and I only averaged two players from our team but I'm pretty sure that we had 5 kids that hit over .500 last season during AAA play. To each his own, I wasn't trying to get in a AAA/major argument I was just agreeing with what someone else had said on here that takes the same approach to travel baseball we do.....Good Luck next season
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Edited by - Spartan4 on 09/30/2010 18:37:24 |
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bankerheel
34 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 16:04:31
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| Talk to any major Div 1 college recruiter or professional scout and they will tell you that success at any age before 15 is not a future predictor of success in major college ball or the professional ranks. Too many variables from growth spurts, injuries, strength, dedication, eye hand coordination, etc. While it helps to play the best competition to help prepare youth for future success and dealing with failure, it is not the end all be all. I think coaches and or parents that think just because their kid plays 11u Major it will translate to him being on the 14,15,or 16u EC Astros is mistaken. Go to one of their tryouts. Its all about tools and talent at that age, not if you were on a 11u team that won the Elite 32 National Championship. And the earlier comment about 20% fastballs at the major level, another example of the results being skewed. Sure a pitcher that has a curveball at this age can dominate, but my bet is it reduces there chances of success in the future for the reasons I have already posted. |
Edited by - bankerheel on 09/30/2010 18:38:08 |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 17:06:44
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| Correction Spartan. A reached on error DOES in fact go against your batting average. It costs you an AB without going in the book as a hit. An "o for 1" for that AB if you will. Reaching on an error does however help your OBP(ON BASE PERCENTAGE) which in my opinion is a more important stat at this young age. Maybe this is why your nephew hit for such a high average (.700)? |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 19:20:53
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Im just poking some fun but what if you are 11 years old and the starting SS on a 14u team 
You are correct however there are too many variables to take in to consideration. Once players hit the big field a lot of things change and its hard to play on this type field unless you have all 5 tools.
quote:
Originally posted by bankerheel
Talk to any major Div 1 college recruiter or professional scout and they will tell you that success at any age before 15 is not a future predictor of success in major college ball or the professional ranks. Too many variables from growth spurts, injuries, strength, dedication, eye hand coordination, etc. While it helps to play the best competition to help prepare youth for future success and dealing with failure, it is not the end all be all. I think coaches and or parents that think just because their kid plays 11u Major it will translate to him being on the 14,15,or 16u EC Astros is mistaken. Go to one of their tryouts. Its all about tools and talent at that age, not if you were on a 11u team that won the Elite 32 National Championship. And the earlier comment about 20% fastballs at the major level, another example of the results being skewed. Sure a pitcher that has a curveball at this age can dominate, but my bet is it reduces there chances of success in the future for the reasons I have already posted.
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bball2008
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2010 : 19:21:20
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I'd bet that the 14, 15 and 16u EC Astros coaches have no idea nor care to watch or hear about any 9, 10 or 11yr olds' achievements.
Spartan4, don't know what team you are from but I would hope that you didn't lose any games in AAA last season with 5 kids hitting over .500-and one hitting at a .700 clip.
As for the classification discussion, there is no argument that kids playing at the major level are seeing better pitching, catchers, harder hit balls, better overall defensive play, etc. and it will help advance their skill levels over a kid playing against AA and AAA competition. But not every kid is a major player and it is a good thing that there are different classes of teams so more kids can enjoy this game. In the next 2-3 years puberty will take hold of most of these boys and there will be a new level of separation that no one can predict. |
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