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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2017 : 20:17:38
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Nearly everyone agrees that the CF8’s & CFZen’s are simply the hottest bats...EVER!
New USA bat standards & tournament “sanctioning” bodies have essentially banned CF8’s & CFZen’s (-10, -8), due to the unbelievable pop. For safety. But for some reason, we are allowing these same Drop 5’s to remain in play? Have you seen the way larger kids hit these bats? Do we really want the top end 12-13u kids/teams swinging these CF Zen -5’s? Our tourney directors line up pool play with top teams facing lower tier teams, and we all watch in amazement as little Johnny (all 160 lbs) tees off on little Billy’s (all 100 lbs, soaking wet) pitching, and blast homers some 300+ feet.
We have a HUGE gap in the bat standards between BB-COR and the Drop 10/8 restrictions.
TOURNEY DIRECTORS - I challenge you to fix this. You’ve gone 95% of way - GO THE DISTANCE. We are only waiting for an accident. |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2017 : 22:04:43
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Why are directors rigging pool play? It should be a random draw shouldn't it be?
Why is the drop 5 now a problem? Is it because everyone else has one and you don't?
Just curious up until now nobody was complaining about the drop 5's, so why all of a sudden the focus on that particular weight?
quote:
Originally posted by RoamingCF
Nearly everyone agrees that the CF8’s & CFZen’s are simply the hottest bats...EVER!
New USA bat standards & tournament “sanctioning” bodies have essentially banned CF8’s & CFZen’s (-10, -8), due to the unbelievable pop. For safety. But for some reason, we are allowing these same Drop 5’s to remain in play? Have you seen the way larger kids hit these bats? Do we really want the top end 12-13u kids/teams swinging these CF Zen -5’s? Our tourney directors line up pool play with top teams facing lower tier teams, and we all watch in amazement as little Johnny (all 160 lbs) tees off on little Billy’s (all 100 lbs, soaking wet) pitching, and blast homers some 300+ feet.
We have a HUGE gap in the bat standards between BB-COR and the Drop 10/8 restrictions.
TOURNEY DIRECTORS - I challenge you to fix this. You’ve gone 95% of way - GO THE DISTANCE. We are only waiting for an accident.
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 09:40:40
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@Semi, that’s a bit of a salty response...
Pool play is never random. I have no issue with setting up pool play (fairly) to get perceived top teams into playoff brackets together.
I don’t have a CF Zen; I don’t play. The bat was banned at lower weights because of danger to the kids. I’m just suggesting that the -5 poses the same risk if the larger kids can swing it same bat speed as smaller kids with -8.
And it’s really up to the sanctioning orgs. |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 09:52:14
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| I am going to beat Punishers to the punch...WE SHOULD ALL SWING WOOD! |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 14:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Just curious up until now nobody was complaining about the drop 5's, so why all of a sudden the focus on that particular weight?
Maybe Roaming just moved into the 13's (like we did) and have watched a few weekends of these 5'8" plus kids swinging those bats. I know I've seen far too many balls rocketing back toward the pitcher. It's scaring the bejeezus out of me......in one weekend, I saw a pitcher get hit square in the chest and another who nearly got nailed in the skull (still don't know how he was quick enough to get his glove up there -- someone was watching over him). Kids who are already that big and that strong don't need to be using these super poppy zens. For the safety of the other players, no real reason for them not to be using a bat that more closely mimics what they're going to have to use in a year. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 14:49:41
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| The retool and new 2018 cf zens just suck. The drop 5 zens are end-loaded and still allowed. A lot of kids swing them from 11-13u. As long as it's a drop 5 and demarini zens are notorious for being over their stated weight, a drop 5 is more like a drop 4 or 3, let them swing it. A simple solution is to regulated bat drops for age groups. I saw an 11u team swinging drop 12 bats Sunday and was amazed they were still striking out. It's still not the bat, but the batter. |
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unitedballers
29 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 15:56:40
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| The short answer...the -5 is within specs. The -8 and -10 both failed compression testing guidelines. |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2017 : 20:48:40
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Just tired of the whole Bat conversation. If it passes the BPF 1.15 then it should be legal, if it doesn't then it should be banned. The whole CF Zen thing has been a mess at best. I'm just tired of all the rule and bat changes.
I remember years ago, before the USSSA stamp, the bats were much hotter and coaches were using the pearls in games they were harder and traveled further. I don't remember that being as big of a deal as what people are making of the zen now.
I would love for these tournaments NOT ban bats, but mix it up, have more wood bat tourneys at the youth level, heck it will never happen but have a "level playing field tournament" a tournament where there are 3 or 4 bats in play that both teams use. You can't tell me that some of those "legal" bats have not been doctored or tampered with, we've all seen it, 8 of 12 kids all using the same bat? Hey a simple rule change could fix some of this. Rule would be if opposing team questions the bat, then they should be allowed to use that bat when they are up, that would change things in a hurry.
These bat changes are not about player saftey, it's about selling bats and making money. Why are we changing standards so frequently? To sell more bats.
quote:
Originally posted by RoamingCF
@Semi, that’s a bit of a salty response...
Pool play is never random. I have no issue with setting up pool play (fairly) to get perceived top teams into playoff brackets together.
I don’t have a CF Zen; I don’t play. The bat was banned at lower weights because of danger to the kids. I’m just suggesting that the -5 poses the same risk if the larger kids can swing it same bat speed as smaller kids with -8.
And it’s really up to the sanctioning orgs.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 11:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Just curious up until now nobody was complaining about the drop 5's, so why all of a sudden the focus on that particular weight?
Maybe Roaming just moved into the 13's (like we did) and have watched a few weekends of these 5'8" plus kids swinging those bats. I know I've seen far too many balls rocketing back toward the pitcher. It's scaring the bejeezus out of me......in one weekend, I saw a pitcher get hit square in the chest and another who nearly got nailed in the skull (still don't know how he was quick enough to get his glove up there -- someone was watching over him). Kids who are already that big and that strong don't need to be using these super poppy zens. For the safety of the other players, no real reason for them not to be using a bat that more closely mimics what they're going to have to use in a year.
While I know it's scary to see hits back to the pitcher, it happens at every level, regardless of the bats being used.
The worst baseball injury I ever saw was a batter hit the ball back at the pitcher, the pitcher fell down but somehow put his non-gloved hand up, perhaps out of instinct. The ball somehow went between his ring finger and middle finger and split the kids hand nearly in half. It was horrific! It was also on a 60x90 field with a BBCOR bat, which is as safe as it gets in this sport. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 12:35:38
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Normally I would agree, it's about the money. However, in this instance I don't believe that to be true. No manufacturer wants additional rules/regulations placed on a product because they will have to change their manufacturing process i.e. more research and development, production lines, recall or refund already made products/purchases and so on.
I remember when the BPF 1.15 rule came out, although very inconvenient, I believe it was for safety as well and not money. The more recent BBCOR rule, also sucked at the time, but looking back and realizing how hot those bats were, that rule had to happen.
The good thing is the kids adapt more easily than the parents. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 14:19:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Gapper
I am going to beat Punishers to the punch...WE SHOULD ALL SWING WOOD!
Not this time, but good one!!!! |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 14:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by unitedballers
The short answer...the -5 is within specs. The -8 and -10 both failed compression testing guidelines.
Agreed. If the -5 failed, it would have been pulled as well. A bit late to ban last year's bat anyway. |
Edited by - Punishers on 10/25/2017 15:12:22 |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 00:29:33
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Punishers totally agree, if illegal they would have banned it last year. What people are failing to recognize, is maybe, just maybe with a lot of these kids getting lessons and professional coaching, and working hard, practicing 3-5 times a week, maybe some of these hitters are really good hitters.
I may need to go find some to hold on to and double my money on ebay in about 6 to 12 months...
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by unitedballers
The short answer...the -5 is within specs. The -8 and -10 both failed compression testing guidelines.
Agreed. If the -5 failed, it would have been pulled as well. A bit late to ban last year's bat anyway.
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 09:04:09
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Ok, here's a question... Let's say this is focused on 13's... Are most of the rising 13's fresh off of Cooperstown last summer? Where the boys are, for the most part, similar in size (sure some grow, but they aren't adding 5-6 inches and 30-40 lbs in 3 months), and in Cooperstown there are ZERO bat restrictions. Banned Zens are legal. Heck, pre-1.15 BPF bats are legal to swing up there... AND, the mound and bases are closer. Why isn't there more of a fuss about Cooperstown or even 12U being allowed to swing -10 'rocket launchers'????
I still don't think this post is about safety, as much as just sour grapes of the 'haves' and 'have nots'. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 09:44:35
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| Last I heard Demarini was no longer making a -5 cf zen bat, so those kids must be using last year's model. While they are known for pop they are also known for breaking. Not sure many will go the distance of another whole spring and summer season. Especially with how hard they hit. Problem may self correct like the year everyone hit with cf 8's..till they all started breaking. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 10/26/2017 09:51:51 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 10:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Last I heard Demarini was no longer making a -5 cf zen bat, so those kids must be using last year's model. While they are known for pop they are also known for breaking. Not sure many will go the distance of another whole spring and summer season. Especially with how hard they hit. Problem may self correct like the year everyone hit with cf 8's..till they all started breaking.
Correct. I spoke a composite engineer from demarini a month ago about the new -5 zens. He said they could not produce them to pass 1.15. The world has a way of balancing itself out without human intervention. Last year's -5 zens may not last an entire season, but we will see.
I would buy as many as possible. They will be like gold in a few years.
"Pop is created by the batter, not the bat". Not the other way around. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 11:12:32
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Not about sour grapes at all. My son had a CF8 -8 and actually hated it.....when it broke, got it replaced with a Zen, which we immediately sold because he didn't like it. He far prefers his Easton XL3. So, for me, this discussion has nothing to do with that.
While these bats might be legal, I'm saying that I have never been as scared for pitchers as I have been this fall, watching these big kids swinging these Zens. There's always an inherent risk in pitching, but for whatever reason, correct or incorrect, my perception is that the ball is flying off these bats much quicker than off other bats. Now, also understand that my son is on a high major team and my perception might be skewed - frankly, it's been opposing team pitchers that I've been afraid for. Our team is the one with the big kids swinging these bats. But I'm starting to think that 13U major teams need to be playing on 60/90 fields. Maybe let them continue swinging -5, but at least force us on the bigger fields, with more distance from the pitchers mound to the plate. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 12:35:23
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While the batter is the most important factor, the bat can go a long way in making that batter a lot better. There is no way around it, the technology with the thinner metals and the composite materials that the bats are made of have changed the game.
I have said it many times, you better enjoy your 13u year because reality is about to set in. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 13:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Not about sour grapes at all. My son had a CF8 -8 and actually hated it.....when it broke, got it replaced with a Zen, which we immediately sold because he didn't like it. He far prefers his Easton XL3. So, for me, this discussion has nothing to do with that.
While these bats might be legal, I'm saying that I have never been as scared for pitchers as I have been this fall, watching these big kids swinging these Zens. There's always an inherent risk in pitching, but for whatever reason, correct or incorrect, my perception is that the ball is flying off these bats much quicker than off other bats. Now, also understand that my son is on a high major team and my perception might be skewed - frankly, it's been opposing team pitchers that I've been afraid for. Our team is the one with the big kids swinging these bats. But I'm starting to think that 13U major teams need to be playing on 60/90 fields. Maybe let them continue swinging -5, but at least force us on the bigger fields, with more distance from the pitchers mound to the plate.
Most 13u Major teams spend 80% of the Spring/Summer in 14u tourneys on the 60x90 field, so just hang in there. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2017 : 17:06:08
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The 13U tournaments this Fall at LakePoint were all played on 60x90 fields. It seems that they may be onto something there. However, that is a huge jump going from 50x70 fields to 60x90 fields in just 3 months. The Spring is a better time to make that move because the boys have had the Fall and Winter to get bigger and stronger.
[/quote]
Most 13u Major teams spend 80% of the Spring/Summer in 14u tourneys on the 60x90 field, so just hang in there.
[/quote] |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 07:07:11
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| The smaller kids are actually the ones most affected by all of this. Flip side of the coin, they need all the help they can get. These bats are like swinging tree trunks for them. Always interesting to see when the sluggers actually have to swing the BBCOR and wood. The smaller ones had to persevere...less of a "learning curve"...like Punishers, I like wood. At 14 most can choose to hit with wood over BBCOR, correct? |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:15:15
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Punishers,
Agree with you it's the batters not the bat. I will note the older Zens may be a little better than their competition, but these same kids hitting rockets will hit them with other bats or even wood. It is not as drastic as people are making it out to be. Hitters are being better trained and as a result the training is what I think we are seeing, not the bat as much in my opinion.
My son trains with wood sometimes and the other day with me doing front toss and him being extremely undersized for 12U 4' 5 and 76 lbs soaking wet, but has good technique, quick hands and some pop, he hit a couple with a 30 inch drop 3 maybe drop 4 LS pro stock wood bat, just as solid as any composite or aluminum and it came off plenty fast to scare me behind an L Screen. If you have good fundamentals, quick hands and square one up, it will fly. Is he going to use the wood in a game, not at 12u, but it helps prepare him for the transition and control the barrel through the hitting zone. Currently being of the smallest kids out there he swings a drop 8 right now, and hopefully before end of spring we start working in drop 5. While kids twice his size or more are still swinging drop 10, those kids and parents are in for a big surprise at 13U.
You mentioned it in another thread, if it didn't pass the BPF 1.15 it would have been pulled as well.
Until August of this year 13U kids could swing just about anything including drop 10's which was crazy, then Triple Crown and others said enough. So these 13 year olds were swinging drop 10 and drop 8 forever. Now that the rules are saying drop 5, all of a sudden, because some of these folks either can't get the Zen drop 5, don't want to pay for the zen drop 5, or don't want to buy it just for one year or in fear of new standard, they scream player safety, when it really is about if I don't have it, I don't want you to have it. I don't have a dog in the fight (this year), but I so call BS on this one.
I personally think the new USA bat standard is a joke. If you can swing a drop 8 swing a drop 8, if you can swing a drop 5 swing a drop 5, it doesn't matter what your age is. At some point you have to go BBCOR or wood, which is around drop 3, learn in the younger years so you are prepared when it really counts. This whole USA Bat "Wood Like" standard but with lower drops (lighter bats) in my mind defeats the purpose. It's a marketing ploy to feel good. So now that the bats are "safe" lets swing lighter weights? There should be a rule drop by age, that's it.
7U drop 12
8U drop 12/10
9U drop 10
10U drop 10
11U drop 10/8
12U drop 8
13U drop 5
14U and beyond drop 3, BBCOR or Wood
Instead of a new standard, swing the right size and weight and then bat commpanies should invest in tamper proof technology, where these bats cannot be rolled or shaved without ruining the bat or being obvious to an umpire or tournament director.
Everyone of us has seen it were there seems to be one or two bats on certain teams (you know the ones), that seem to be a little hotter and everyone uses. Same brand, Same model, but boy that one particular bat seems to be the one everyone on that team uses and perform better than the ones on our team. Maybe due to manufacturing variations, they got lucky and got a good one, more likely it got some help along the line from dad. I'd like to see technology that if end caps are removed, the bats become useless and cannot be used again, or obvious to a blind person it's been modified. That would be a greater stride towards player safety more than a new stamp and a money grab. My message to these folks spending big bucks to gain this edge, take that money instead and buy lessons for your kid, do it the right way, not the easy way.
In this case it's not the bat!
Before I get off my soapbox, I say a simple rule could fix some of this as well and can be implemented literally overnight. IF it is really about player safety, and I still call BS on that argument.
Simple rule, any time a pitcher or fielder is struck and injured by a batted ball, the umpire immediately confiscates the bat and ball in said play, and are removed until testing can be done and certified legal and within tolerances. That would do 2 things, 1) protect other players from future risk but 2) hold liable any dad, coach or team that injures another player due to an illegal bat and/or ball. If a kid is hurt, and the bat or ball falls out of spec, then an independent organization can open the bat, if it was tampered with the player and family are responsible and likely will be seeking legal aid, if it weren't tampered with and out of spec, well then the manufacturer(s) would be liable. It would never eliminate all the risk, but it would reduce it.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The retool and new 2018 cf zens just suck. The drop 5 zens are end-loaded and still allowed. A lot of kids swing them from 11-13u. As long as it's a drop 5 and demarini zens are notorious for being over their stated weight, a drop 5 is more like a drop 4 or 3, let them swing it. A simple solution is to regulated bat drops for age groups. I saw an 11u team swinging drop 12 bats Sunday and was amazed they were still striking out. It's still not the bat, but the batter.
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:24:06
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100% correct Demarini stopped making the drop 5 Zen and has NO plans to do so. They have a crappy drop 5 voodoo. It will be exactly like the CF8 situation with limited inventory that I call perishable. It's not a matter of if it will break, but when it will break. The problem will self correct. Demarini is counting down the days, they have to be tired of the exposure for returns.
I predict the drop 5 market for all bat manufactures will be weak going forward. It will be a very limited market going forward, and why mass produce something so custom or limited to a small segment. To me a drop 5 literally is becoming a 13U only bat, no way they spend R&D money for that one segment especially when kids are changing dimensions etc. They will focus on Drop 10's, 8's and BBCOR.
So hold on to those Used Drop 5 zens, I predict they will go for big bucks on ebay just like the CF8's. Man I wish I stocked up on CF8's held them and resold them. Could have put my kid through college with the spike in value!
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Last I heard Demarini was no longer making a -5 cf zen bat, so those kids must be using last year's model. While they are known for pop they are also known for breaking. Not sure many will go the distance of another whole spring and summer season. Especially with how hard they hit. Problem may self correct like the year everyone hit with cf 8's..till they all started breaking.
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:32:15
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I think you are more in line with the field dimensions vs the bat.
TRUE 13U Major teams should be on 60/90 period. If they are that big, strong, fast and talented as most of them are. Maybe even some AAA+ teams as well.
but AA and AAA- maybe on 54/80, to aid with the transition. Puberty is different at these ages, and it is an awkward time people need to be real about things and continue to work on development until puberty is over and everyone is back in line.
Also, these Major/Elite teams do not need to be beating up on smaller weaker teams in rigged pool play draws, or trophy hunting or padding their records, or even playing them at all as I think that is where more of this may be occurring. People need to be real about their classification and stick within it.
Bottom line accidents are going to happen, prevent the ones we can, and hope and pray we've trained these boys on how to protect themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Not about sour grapes at all. My son had a CF8 -8 and actually hated it.....when it broke, got it replaced with a Zen, which we immediately sold because he didn't like it. He far prefers his Easton XL3. So, for me, this discussion has nothing to do with that.
While these bats might be legal, I'm saying that I have never been as scared for pitchers as I have been this fall, watching these big kids swinging these Zens. There's always an inherent risk in pitching, but for whatever reason, correct or incorrect, my perception is that the ball is flying off these bats much quicker than off other bats. Now, also understand that my son is on a high major team and my perception might be skewed - frankly, it's been opposing team pitchers that I've been afraid for. Our team is the one with the big kids swinging these bats. But I'm starting to think that 13U major teams need to be playing on 60/90 fields. Maybe let them continue swinging -5, but at least force us on the bigger fields, with more distance from the pitchers mound to the plate.
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:48:57
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Yes and No.
Being the father of a smaller kid, yes they are at a big disadvantage in size. But, I stress to mine, if you want to compete and want it bad enough, work harder, train. I can't make you any bigger, god made you what you are, but you decide what you are going to be.
So the smaller kids that work hard, they won't hit 350' 400' bombs like these 13U man children out there but they should still be able to handle the bat and weight changes and compete and yes hit the occasional dinger.
However, the smaller kids that just want to show up or don't practice as hard, don't want it as much, yep they will absolutely struggle and 13, 14, 15U is were you see the attrition for them where they quit sports altogether or start up lacrosse.
Pedroia and Altuve, two of the hardest working players out there are small and prove it can be done if you are on the small side, you just have to out work everyone and want it more.
How bad does one want it?
I'm starting to fall in Punisher's camp - Becoming more of a fan of Wood. Need more wood bat tourneys at the younger levels, but be prepared your 14-8 game may now be a 2-1 game...
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
The smaller kids are actually the ones most affected by all of this. Flip side of the coin, they need all the help they can get. These bats are like swinging tree trunks for them. Always interesting to see when the sluggers actually have to swing the BBCOR and wood. The smaller ones had to persevere...less of a "learning curve"...like Punishers, I like wood. At 14 most can choose to hit with wood over BBCOR, correct?
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 11:12:44
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Here are some statistics from 2013, 2 years after the introduction of BBCOR bats in 2011:
1.Home Run Data Points:
Home runs in 2013 per game are less than half they were at the peak in 1998 (.42 from 1.06). In fact, the average HR/G from 1975 to 2010 was .77 HR/G. 2011, 2012 and 2013 average .473–a 39% drop off in home runs.
2.Runs per game:
From a peak in 1998 of 7.12 runs per game to a low in 2013 to 5.27, run production per game dropped a full 25%. The last 3 years have seen 18% less runs than the average of the previous 35 years.
3.Batting Average:
Strike out percentages for players are not going up. Contact percentage is staying even. But players are no longer hitting base hits like they used to. Almost 20 points down on average.
4.Stolen Bases per Game:
With BA low and OBP down accordingly, we’ve seen few opportunities to steal bases per game. As a result, there have been 18% fewer bases stolen per game in the last three years then compared to the average of the 35 years previous.
You can easily see the BAT plays a major role, no matter how good the player is. I couldn't find recent data, although I'm sure it exists and I am also sure these numbers have probably increased because manufacturers will make better products over time.
Also, if it has nothing to do with the bat, why is there discussion about some bats being crappy. Everybody wants their kid to stand out and have every advantage possible, that's why you search and search for that "hot" bat. I like the wood bat only idea, then your hitting ability will truly shine and no one can say, "It was the bat". |
Edited by - bama21 on 10/27/2017 13:37:05 |
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PSA - Ease his pain
