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bturner
231 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2010 : 21:42:15
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What is everyones thoughts on stealing signs?
I see it (or hear it) every weekend.
Here is my take:
I dont like it in youth baseball because there is not a accepatble penalty. In High School and above a pitcher will send a message with an inside fatball. If that does'nt work the next one may be in the ear hole. Before anyone gets carried away I said High School and above. You cant do that in youth baseball. That is my problem with it. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 08:24:42
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| What age and what signs? |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 09:14:38
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| To me, that's baseball. I enjoy the process of trying to keep the other team from picking up our signals. That said, we don't try to steal other team's signals. |
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gabandit
25 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 10:04:35
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A topic that I get pretty passionate about... Having coached youth baseball for 10+ years with nationally ranked teams I used to get in pretty heated arguments about this subject, to the point that I remember telling the opposing team our pitches in an 11U game many years ago (of course it was only fastball or changeup!).
My feeling is that in youth baseball the coaches job is to guide and teach. Most of that teaching takes place during practice and most of the guiding takes place during the games. For an adult coach to interject themselves into the game so severely, like stealing signs, is just wrong. Plus, it does not help the development of your hitters at all. Pitch recognition and learning how to go to the plate with an approach and a plan is a major part of hitting.
Now having said that, I did teach my players to try to pick up ways in which the pitcher was tipping his pitches. I would not do this for them but encouraged them to be engaged in the game and look for it. At 13U, I taught my players, when they were on 2nd base, to relay signs to the hitter if the opposing team was not smart enough to rotate signs, use multiple signals, etc. But this was still the players playing the game, not me.
I have a hard time, even through high school, with coaches stealing signs and relaying them to batters. IMO it is OK, at the High School and 15U and above levels for coaches to pick steal signs and call pitch outs, etc.
To me, adults stealing signs and relaying to hitters is just a win at all cost mentality... my .02 cents worth.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 11:19:08
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| Part of the game. If the other team picks them up, change them. Simple as that. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 13:48:05
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I was not going to bring this topic up this year as it always comes up but this weekend we had catcher and pitcher who were new to our team and the opposing team had a parent calling our pitches out. We finally asked them to have him stop. But why would any coach put up with this. I would rather my kids learn how to see a curve ball on their own and not be told when it is coming.
Nothing outside the fence is part of the game..i understand some coaches or players doing it at times but never ever someone outside the fence. I bet the same person couldt hit a ball off a tee if someone racked it up for them |
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bturner
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 20:25:46
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Whits
Excellent Point.
If players pick them up 100% part of the game. If a coach picks them up I dont like it but I am ok with it. Never should be a parent.quote:
Originally posted by whits23
I was not going to bring this topic up this year as it always comes up but this weekend we had catcher and pitcher who were new to our team and the opposing team had a parent calling our pitches out. We finally asked them to have him stop. But why would any coach put up with this. I would rather my kids learn how to see a curve ball on their own and not be told when it is coming.
Nothing outside the fence is part of the game..i understand some coaches or players doing it at times but never ever someone outside the fence. I bet the same person couldt hit a ball off a tee if someone racked it up for them
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:15:38
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| Opposing teams' parents were stealing our pitching signs from coach on the bucket and calling them out to their hitters at the Slugfest. This is total "bush league". The game should stay inside the fence. |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:30:49
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bturner you are correct, there are ways to fix sign stealing at the higher levels of baseball. It gets a little tricky at the younger levels.
While I do agree that stealing signs is part of baseball, I also agree that a little “chin music” is part of baseball as well. If a youth coach knows that there are no penalties for stealing signs then why stop. In “Big Boy” baseball those believed to be stealing signs will get hit others will not because they either don’t want to get hit or feel it’s Bush League.
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:52:31
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| We all know that this topic is taboo, but if it were not part of the game there wouldn't be signs. |
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a1prog
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 21:42:22
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| as a former coach i can tell you this; have pitchers change speed; have fielders play good fundamental defense; put the ball in play. i you do this then you dont need to steal signs. you'll just beat the other team. you can make this game as complicated as you want. i always found that kids and young teens need to keep it simple. |
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ecbstars
62 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 22:28:32
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| Our last game at TC State last year, the other team had a parent keeping the scoreboard and could see my signs and was relaying to the hitter in the box fastball or change. Not much class, part of the game none the less. Changed the indicator or which one in sequence we used. Ended up working against them. No hard feelings, just had to adjust to turn it into an advantage. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 09:11:40
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ecbstars, changing the indicator or sequence of signs given is an obvious and easy fix but the point here is what does this say about the parent stealing the signs. I dont think it's part of the game. At least not part of the game I teach my players.quote:
Originally posted by ecbstars
Our last game at TC State last year, the other team had a parent keeping the scoreboard and could see my signs and was relaying to the hitter in the box fastball or change. Not much class, part of the game none the less. Changed the indicator or which one in sequence we used. Ended up working against them. No hard feelings, just had to adjust to turn it into an advantage.
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PS Iron Pigs
129 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 09:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by gabandit
A topic that I get pretty passionate about... Having coached youth baseball for 10+ years with nationally ranked teams I used to get in pretty heated arguments about this subject, to the point that I remember telling the opposing team our pitches in an 11U game many years ago (of course it was only fastball or changeup!).
My feeling is that in youth baseball the coaches job is to guide and teach. Most of that teaching takes place during practice and most of the guiding takes place during the games. For an adult coach to interject themselves into the game so severely, like stealing signs, is just wrong. Plus, it does not help the development of your hitters at all. Pitch recognition and learning how to go to the plate with an approach and a plan is a major part of hitting.
Now having said that, I did teach my players to try to pick up ways in which the pitcher was tipping his pitches. I would not do this for them but encouraged them to be engaged in the game and look for it. At 13U, I taught my players, when they were on 2nd base, to relay signs to the hitter if the opposing team was not smart enough to rotate signs, use multiple signals, etc. But this was still the players playing the game, not me.
I have a hard time, even through high school, with coaches stealing signs and relaying them to batters. IMO it is OK, at the High School and 15U and above levels for coaches to pick steal signs and call pitch outs, etc.
To me, adults stealing signs and relaying to hitters is just a win at all cost mentality... my .02 cents worth.
I agree GaBandit. I just love the mental game of baseball. If you can teach your kids what to look for and how to react to it, they'll become much better players. I always tell our players that you can learn more about what's going on while you're in the dugout than you can on the field. Anything that can keep their attention between at-bats the better. Players don't necessarily need to steal signs if they look for the "little things" that players do to tip pitches, pick-offs, etc. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 10:13:44
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Parents stealing signs and calling out pitches or plays to the players is pretty busch league. The teams coach should deal with this right away.
I still say coaches or players stealing signs is part of the game. When I was a pitching coach, we always kept an eye out to make sure the other team was not stealing our signs. That was part of our responsibility. If they were, we did what ecbstarts said. We changed our signs or indicators. Then they would have to refigure it out. That is all part of the game. Parents blurting out calls from behind the plate is not. |
Edited by - bballman on 03/09/2010 10:47:35 |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2010 : 22:04:34
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Stealing signs is as much a part of baseball as is the hit and run. If it wasnt then coaches wouldnt spend time trying to come up with misleading hand movements and sounds. If a coach isnt smart enough to disguise his signals or willing to teach his young team then his team deserves having them stolen. How many coaches you see sitting on a bucket throwing up pitching signals. I can tell you if a coach does that with me I WILL STEAL THEM and relay that info to my hitters.
Some of you mentioned that you dont like signs stolen at the youth age. Well kids need to learn these sometimes complicated signals at this age so the transition wont be as difficult as they get older. It even causes them to pay more attention to the game and will help them increase their knowledge of baseball by having them work on figuring out another teams signals. I even use a numerical set of signals for my catchers calling pitches. Which by the way is what a lot of top colleges and high schools are currently using.
Sometimes we try to make the game too simple for these young men and that in my humble opinion only hurts them. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 08:06:32
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GMAN
Running over catchers and throwing at a batter after one of yours has been hit is also big boy baseball. As is throwing at batters peaking for signs. Should we teach that at the youth level? Are there not stages of teaching the game? If you are relaying pitches to youth hitters will they ever learn to hit them on their own.
Most people who do this never could play in their day so now they are trying to be part of the game. Teach hitters to hit not to rely on pop's for the sign. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 09:23:37
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I think there is a big distinction between stealing signs inside the fence (players and coaches), and stealing them from outside the fence (parents).
I also think it is in bad taste to have a parent go scout another game and write the signs down for the coach, so they can use them when they play that team.
If you are inside the fence, be aware of the game going on, which includes when a team is giving their signs away. If you are outside the fence, enjoy the game being played. Just spectate.
The one that used to burn me up so bad was the mother keeping the score board sitting right behind home plate telling the batter where the catcher is setting up. (That is easily remedied by having the catcher not shift until the pitcher starts his windup, but still it is bad spectating.) |
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clg003
79 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 11:00:33
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| The problem with stealing signs at this level is that there is no way to stop them from doing it. In high school or above if you are caught stealing the signs you will get a fastball in the melon. If someone is calling out signs like a coach there will be several fastballs at several melons and a fight or 2 to boot. That is how you are supposed to enforce such bush league tactics. Sure it’s part of baseball but so is beaning the other teams best player somewhere where it hurts or somewhere where it knocks them out of the game to teach the other team a lesson. So if you are condoning stealing signs then I guess you also have condone the beaning of kids because as part of baseball one is used to govern the other. And If a coach feels he can get away with the crime because no one would dole out the punishment then he is bush league. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 13:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
GMAN
Running over catchers and throwing at a batter after one of yours has been hit is also big boy baseball. As is throwing at batters peaking for signs. Should we teach that at the youth level? Are there not stages of teaching the game? If you are relaying pitches to youth hitters will they ever learn to hit them on their own.
Most people who do this never could play in their day so now they are trying to be part of the game. Teach hitters to hit not to rely on pop's for the sign.
Teddy: having pitches relayed to batters is part of the game and any one who played baseball or coached at a high level would know that. As for the stages of the game. Those stages are taught based on the players ability to comprehend what is being taught, not based on a players age or division. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 16:38:08
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| G maybe you did not see the original post where the issue was parents outside the gate calling pitches to kids at the plate. If you played or coached at a high level or low level you must agree that is BS. You seem like a credible guy. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 17:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by bturner
What is everyones thoughts on stealing signs?
I see it (or hear it) every weekend.
Here is my take:
I dont like it in youth baseball because there is not a accepatble penalty. In High School and above a pitcher will send a message with an inside fatball. If that does'nt work the next one may be in the ear hole. Before anyone gets carried away I said High School and above. You cant do that in youth baseball. That is my problem with it.
Here is the original post. Says nothing about parents. This poster just feels it isn't justified because you can't (or shouldn't) bean someone at the youth level. I say there is a difference at the youth level because of the danger of injury. With stealing signs, there is no danger of injury.
You don't have to bean someone to get them to stop stealing your signs. You just change them. Make it a part of your game and the players game to make sure the other team is not stealing signs. If they are change them. You don't have to throw at someone for your signs to stop being stolen.
We can debate this all we want, but the fact is, signs will be stolen. Even if a coach doesn't encourage it, if the kids are into the game, they will be trying to figure it out at some point. Don't be too obvious with your signs. If you do it right, they won't be stolen. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 20:46:40
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| valid point, but i would still like to know if gman condones parents doing it and if it wouldnt be better to let kids learn to see a pitch. Go to a real good high school or college game and see if you hear daddy calling pitches for little johnny to show how much he knows. He would get tossed by the coach in a heartbeat. There is no reason to have to change signs at this level age 10-13 and it is not hard to pick them off. I have been to many major and world level tournaments and yet to hear it happen, only at the local level with modest teams. So anyway lets hope for dry weather this weekend. I know triple crown is already on the fence. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 20:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
G maybe you did not see the original post where the issue was parents outside the gate calling pitches to kids at the plate. If you played or coached at a high level or low level you must agree that is BS. You seem like a credible guy.
Oh yes I do agree with that. Parents shouldnt be calling pitches or catcher location. I would say that those type parents should be thrown out of the park. Its one thing to steal signs and relay them to your players by signals as a coach or player but its another issue if parents behind the fence are calling out pitch locations and where a catcher is setting up on the plate.
Sorry I must have misunderstood the original post. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 08:25:33
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Teddy, I could be wrong as my son didn't play travel till he was 12 and is 16 now, so we have been out of the youth game for a while. But maybe you don't see it happening at the major level and big events because the teams are much more subtle about it. I'm not talking about parents, I'm talking about teams. I don't remember what age I started seeing this, maybe 12 or 13, the kids on our team would start trying to steal signs from the coach to the catcher. They would have it worked out amongst them selves how they would relay that to the batter. It was something along the lines of - if they said his name while cheering, it was a fastball and if they said his number it was a curveball. Coaches did not initiate this. I know, I was one of the coaches. It was the kids doing it. My son came and told me what they were doing. I was the pitching coach calling pitches. If my catcher caught them picking up our signs, he would either come to me between innings and say "coach, they got our signs" or he would do the twirling finger to let me know. We would change indicator and it would be over.
There was no big event that would let everybody at the park know that signs were being stolen. If you were sitting in the bleachers, you would never have suspected the strategy going on around it. I have also noticed, the higher level a team plays at, the less vocal the parents are. I think the parents of the higher level kids have more respect for the game than to be doing this.
So I guess my point is, just because you don't see stealing signs going on at the major level or big tournaments, doesn't mean it's not happening. It's very possibly being dealt with as a part of the game. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2010 : 16:08:48
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| Yep.thats my point. major teams do it with class, others do it with dad behind the fence |
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Topic |
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Stealing Signs
