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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
 Posted - 01/01/2010 : 19:40:50
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Bubba,
I would have sent this directly to you, but I believe there are a lot of people on the board that would like to know the answers as well.
I see some Super NIT's out in AZ are offering Quadruple points. What is the typical points value of the other Super NIT's and why are these tournaments allowed to offer these extra points?
Also, there are 4 Super NIT's (MS, MO, MI, and LA) that are giving 2 berths in their tournament rather than 1.
In addition, LA actually has 2 Super NIT's for a total of 3 berths. So Cal has 3 Super NIT's and FL has 4 Super NIT's.
With the teams that will travel into GA to play, why is it that we only get one Super NIT with one Berth? It seems like one of the FL Super NIT berths could be moved to GA leaving them 1 each for So FL, Central FL, and No FL. Also, with LA being on the coast, they lose one border to have teams travel from. If one of those berths was used somewhere more central, say the Nashville TN area, it would draw a better distribution of teams.
I was hoping you could shed some light on all of this. |
Edited by - Alter-Ego on 01/01/2010 19:41:19 |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 12:09:34
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I agree with Alter-Ego. How can it be that Florida gets 4 Super NIT's and Georgia gets one and then the one we get the best Florida teams usually come to play in ours. Why would they travel to Atlanta if there are 4 Super NIT's in their backyard.
The answer is simple and it is that they want to play the best teams the game has to offer and they find that competition here in Georgia and we love playing them as much as they do us as most of the Florida teams are not only great baseball teams but truly nice folks. I have stated before that Georgia appears to be the red headed step child of USSSA baseball. Why don't we get quadruple points since we only have a 1 in 4 chance. Why don't we get more than 1 berth, Why don't we get 4 chances to qualify. Papa could care less because we have found many other places that offer as much or more than USSSA and where the field is not so slanted.
All anyone wants in any sport they play is a level playing field. Let Moser do the math based on Alter-Ego's post and he will let us know how much of a disadvantage it is to play USSSA in Georgia. I was not a math major but figure it this way. The Florida teams get's 4 times as many chances to qualify as the Georgia teams. Moser will add so much more to this equation as he will tell us how many major teams are listed in Florida and how many in Georgia. This is right up my man's Moser's alley. |
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JCB
88 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 18:53:36
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Another question for Bubba; what does it take to get quadrupple points? I have been told in the past that multiples of points are based on the amount ($$) the tournament director (TD's) pays to USSSA. If that is correct than TD's are trying to lure more teams and fuller fields by offering more points - which in theory sounds great, but if the differentiation in awarded tournament points is supposed to be based on the type of event than that should be it - no double points, triple points, or now quadrupple points. Getting higher ranking and better seeding should not be based on doing better in a tournament that has paid up for points. That seems contrary to the concept of identifying the best based on tournament results. Also, the power rating of who a team has played should be the main criteria for determing rankings and resulting future seeding; and not points based on the number of tournaments. If identifying the Nation's best teams is the goal of the USSSA,then rewarding teams for playing a large number of USSSA events, and thus earning more points, should not be the driving force for the rankings.
What does everyone else think?  |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 19:40:02
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PaPa said...Moser will add so much more to this equation as he will tell us how many major teams are listed in Florida and how many in Georgia.
You see, now I have PaPa thinking like me. I think he's been watching that "Numbers" show on TV. That's my favorite too PaPa.
The current number of Major teams in a given age group are not driving it, that much I know. GA, CA (NoCal+SoCal), and FL have (in the neighborhood) about the same number of 10U Major teams last year. They must be using a broader population metric than that.
If total State population, then LA = .5, GA = 1, FL = 2, & CA = 4, so that's not it because Louisiana (LA)has a disproportionate number of Elite 32 World Series births.
My guess is there is no exact formula. Or, the formula was contrived a few years ago, and the raw data hasn't been updated and fed back into it in quite a while.
They might have said, how many teams are w/in a 5 hour drive to each Regions epicenter where they'd hold the S-NIT(assuming that is the max teams will drive to play), and base it off that number of teams as a percent all teams Nationally. That's what I would have done, but it still needs to be recalculated every 2 or 3 years. Or, use total # of total teams per USSSA Region as % of all.
Anyway, however its done, they should make it transparent to avoid notions of foul play (pardon the pun).
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 21:07:24
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JCB:
We won a tourney billed as triple points, then didnt get them for quite a while. It took several calls to various usssa officials both state and national to finally get them. By the time they were awarded, it was too late to impact our pool standings as they should have at key post season tourneys we played in.
Now that I read your post, I can see it was a spat between our local TD and those above him about financial matters. Too bad. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 21:14:29
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JCB,
The unfortunate balancing act USSSA has to make is between the rankings and rewarding teams for playing in their tournaments. Whether we want to hear it or not, USSSA wants teams to play in their tournaments and they have to have some way to reward teams for doing that. Unfortunately there are areas, AL being one of them, that has podunk USSSA tournaments every weekend for stacking up points.
I think there needs to be a combination of power ranking and points that designate the seeding for tournaments. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 21:57:46
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bmoser,
Unfortunately I believe the methodology for determining which states get extra Super NIT's have to do with which State USSSA organizations do the most for the national organization. I also believe that the tournaments that have the 2nd berth are ones that needed the second ones to get the number of teams to attend. (TN last year, MS, MI, LA, etc)
The GA Super NIT has always had plenty of teams, so there is no need for the National Organization to provide a 2nd berth. They could benefit from letting the GA organization have a 2nd Super NIT but since TC, and several of the others have a pretty good presence here in GA, so the FL Organization has a strong argument for keeping there Berths.
Also keep in mind the State Director for LA was the Director for the Elite WS, if I am not mistaken. That cannot be coincidence.
I am not saying all of this to throw rocks at USSSA, I am just saying that there may be some underlying reasoning why things are as they are.
And let's not be naive enough to think the other organizations do not have their own shortcomings.
All things being equal, I still prefer USSSA tournaments because I know there is some level of consistency across the board. TC does a great job in GA, I believe more because of Tony than the organization as a whole. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 23:04:00
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Instead of the rankings using USSSA tournaments only, wouldn't it be better and fairer if someone could come up with a way to rank the teams on all the games that they had played in all tournaments, Triple Crown, USSSA, USTBA, BPA, etc. The teams we play week in and week out are basically the same teams. One week we play them in Triple Crown, the next week we play them in USSSA, and the next in USTBA. Take all the games and use the same formula for all and the rankings should be fair.
How does Travel Ball Select arrive at their rankings. If I am not mistaken they take the full book of work a team has produced and not just a few pages out of their book of work such as their USSSA games played. Am I right or wrong on this. |
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TravelFan
17 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 00:08:47
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I check this site out from time to time. Most of the time I don't post!! Some topics I can't resist, though I don't think they're well received.
We're ignoring the obvious. Politics!!! There's no reason to reward Georgia with either multiple berths and/or SNIT's. For the most part Georgia isn't a strong supporter of the Elite WS. Yes, at the older ages (13u-16u) the ECB Astros represent Georgia well. But do the research, in years past many Georgia teams that win berths often decline them. Case in point were the 11U ECB Longhorns in 2008.
USSSA is much more popular now in Florida than ever. They've converted several areas away from AAU. Probably because a lot of what AAU was offering was in "league format". Tournament ball is KING! With the Elite 32 in Florida, it's advantageous for USSSA to solicit to the in-state teams. Often USSSA falls short of the 24 or 32 teams they allot for and in years past have had to invite teams from strong national programs or 2nd-4th place finishers in SNIT's that consistenly play USSSA just to complete the field. In this economy the USSSA powers are well aware they won't get 32 teams unless they give some states more berths than others.
As for the Louisiana thing, the National "figure-head" for years and fill in director for many start up states with USSSA is Joey Odom. His homestate is Louisiana. I'm sure he's buttering bread from his own toaster, ya know. Not saying it's wrong, just politics. To their credit, Louisiana has long been a major participant in ALL USSSA National events. Governors Games is arguably the most competitive SNIT in the country. Research previous years winners in most any age division and they probably were Top 4-8 in Disney.
SoCal will always get multiple SNIT's because with the current season starting in August, they're some of the only teams playing top level baseball worthy of deserving an early season qualifiers in the beginning of the season.
The 2X, 3X and 4X point options is the discretion and/or interest of tournament directors. Directors pay to the USSSA National Office money based on the amount of points the event will award. To put it short Georgia TD's obviously don't want to add that expense to their USSSA tab. Last I remember it's an additional $750 to make a WS qualifier a "regular" NIT. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 09:54:34
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If what JCB post says is true then I assume that if you wanted you could pay enough money and could buy a championship in USSSA. How can it be fair for a team to win in a equal or weaker field of teams and get 4 times as many points. Guys, Do the math. We are gaining reasons for someone to come up with a fair and impartial ranking system and one that money is not a factor.
Bubba, You promised you would respond to our concerns so can you tell us why Florida has 4 times more chances to qualify with approximately the same number of major teams as Georgia and why does some states get 4 times as many points because they are willing to pay more money. Does USSSA not know that giving quadruple points to anyone is slanting the playing field in the wrong direction for the other teams that support you. Does USSSA plan on being fair with everyone or just the ones that pay the most money. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 14:46:06
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| There's 78 major teams from 9u to 14u in Ga. There's 288 major teams from 9u to 14u in Florida |
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TravelFan
17 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 15:13:19
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 Baseballpapa, I've got some beachfront property in Iowa, great view of the Atlantic. I promise you'll love it!! I'm hear for all your real estate needs, don't hesitate to get back with any questions or concerns
Love how you, bmoser and others express yourselves with intelligence and passion!!!! And expect the same from others. Fun stuff to read! |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 17:07:15
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10bb,
Is that 2009 numbers or are you looking at 2010? |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 19:44:17
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| Those were 2010 numbers. The ending numbers for 09 were 209 for Ga. and 414 for Fl. The ending numbers for 08 were 197 for Ga. and 359 for Fl. These are major team totals. Just might be the reasons for Fl having more Super NIT's. Thats the only reason I could figure out. If you took quality teams into consideration Im sure the numbers would be closer. |
Edited by - 10 BB on 01/03/2010 21:12:24 |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 21:03:22
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| 10bb: I didn't know that there were that many more teams in Florida for us to beat. Wow, That surprises me. Why have we not heard more from these teams. You get past MBA Pride, Pembroke, Tampa Boltz, and the Bombers and I have not heard of any of these teams. Is it easier to qualify major in Florida. I am beginning to believe that what we are seeing is home cooking. I checked out the USSSA site and found 5 northern Florida teams listed and 20 southern Florida teams listed and the Georgia site only listed 5 Georgia teams in the 11U division and that has got to be a joke unless the Georgia teams have just decided to quit fighting USSSA and did not register this time around. Help me out guys. Do we really just have 5 major teams in the 11U for 2010. If that is true does it mean that USSSA is dying in Georgia. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 21:15:36
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| Travel Fan: Thanks for the offer to purchase the beachfront in Iowa but why would I buy that when I can stay with King at his beachfront condo in Ohio for free but again thanks for the offer. Even back in my younger days when they called me Eagle Eye I couldn't see that far. |
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bball2008
100 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 21:36:37
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| There may be 288 major teams in FL but they are made up of only about 50 teams worth of players. Lots of kids on multiple rosters. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 21:44:29
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PaPa,
To see all the 11U USSSA GA Major teams, you have to do 2 things:
1st, go to the re-class report on the Georgia USSSA web site. It shows 15 teams, 13 that were Majors last year, and 2 AAA's that got bumped up to Majors for 11U. Some of these have disbanded. Grip, Stixx, Express, Scorpions.
2nd, go to team rankings, enter GA/Major/11U/points and 12 teams pops up. This adds some teams that have successfully appealed, or new teams that have chosen to classify themselves as Majors since the re-class report has been released. You'll see Jackets Gold, Team GA, Colts.
If you collate these 2 lists (or merge them together), you'll have the Major class for the start of the 11U season. I'll do this after the appeals process has been completed.
For North FL only 6 pop up on the points method. I have not seen their re-class report yet.
FLA's 2 births in the South Region is dead on and justified. FLA's North Region having 2 is not IMHO.
pop quiz: which team has beaten both MBA Pride and the Pembroke Bulldogs this year?
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 21:58:02
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| Papa; to tell the truth each year there have been more teams sign up year after year as major in Ga as a whole. The thing is a team can be a major team if they request it but as moser has stated there is alot of ball to be played in Ga just not at the major level (not saying no major level teams but not major tournaments) and with the economy as it is they would just rather stay AAA and play close to home. Think about this, if every team in Ga registered Major then there would be no A, AA or AAA tournaments. All of the USSSA tournaments would be open. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2010 : 22:09:38
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10bb,
I could accept that rationale but there are only 2x the number of Major teams in FL vs GA, but the Super NIT's are 4:1. That is why I was recommending moving one to GA for a 3:2 ratio.
Also the FL teams have an advantage with having the Elite in FL because of the travel ease.
Let's keep in mind, any coach with a new pair of turf shoes can sign his team up as Major. Simple numbers is not a good rationale for determining the number of Super NIT's.
If USSSA wants to win back more of the market share in GA, they need to make changes like this to entice teams play more of their tournaments.
(BTW, related to 2010 GA teams don't typically register until the spring.) |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 00:05:05
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Papa, many of the teams have just not registered yet. As we get closer to the season starting up you will see quite a few more teams sign up.
Travelfan, one of the problems with the Elite 32 is the timing of it. It has always been scheduled to extend into the first week of August. Many of our kids are starting back to school that week. They have moved it up a couple of weeks now, so I think you will see the push to play in that event increase. |
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wildcats9596
110 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 07:39:28
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A very quick google of the respective populations shows that Florida has almost twice as many people as Georgia.
Florida plays baseball even longer than we do.
Whether USSSA is thriving or dying, active or inactive, in either state, these numbers shouldn't be all that surprising. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 09:56:57
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| moser; the answer to your question is Team USA Boltz |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 10:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by bball2008
There may be 288 major teams in FL but they are made up of only about 50 teams worth of players. Lots of kids on multiple rosters.
LOL !!! |
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Nole27
27 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 10:51:47
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| I asked Matt Trebuchon this question last year and his answer as to why he doesn't give but one berth in the Super NIT was "Because I don't have to". For those that don't know, he is the one that calls the shots in Georgia for USSSA. It is what it is. The only way to get concessions from him is more competition. With all of these other orgnizations competing in GA and siphening some teams from USSSA, it can only help make these guys more accountable to the folks that are the source of their living. One day, they will catch on to this. |
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gausssa
209 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2010 : 17:49:15
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Sorry guys for the late reply but i haven't been on the site sence before New Years. I did ask Matt Trebuchon about these issue's/questions and ask that he give me something i could post that would try and clear some things up..As i have stated before "i here ya load and clear about the 2 berths for Ga." Maybe one day we will get it. Again, sorry for the delay!!!!
The following post to each question came from the State Director:
Alter-Ego
Posted - 01/01/2010 : 19:40:50
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Bubba,
I would have sent this directly to you, but I believe there are a lot of people on the board that would like to know the answers as well.
I see some Super NIT's out in AZ are offering Quadruple points. What is the typical points value of the other Super NIT's and why are these tournaments allowed to offer these extra points?
Also, there are 4 Super NIT's (MS, MO, MI, and LA) that are giving 2 berths in their tournament rather than 1.
In addition, LA actually has 2 Super NIT's for a total of 3 berths. So Cal has 3 Super NIT's and FL has 4 Super NIT's.
With the teams that will travel into GA to play, why is it that we only get one Super NIT with one Berth? It seems like one of the FL Super NIT berths could be moved to GA leaving them 1 each for So FL, Central FL, and No FL. Also, with LA being on the coast, they lose one border to have teams travel from. If one of those berths was used somewhere more central, say the Nashville TN area, it would draw a better distribution of teams.
I was hoping you could shed some light on all of this.
________________________________________
Edited by - Alter-Ego on 01/01/2010 19:41:19
All Super NIT’s award quadruple points compared to a regular Qualifier. See the below link.
http://www.usssa.com/sports/Legend.asp?LSport=11
Super NIT locations and berth allocations are decided upon by the National Committee. One of the contributing factors is population and team density. Along with population comes team density.
• California has a population of 36.7 Million compared to Georgia’s 9.6 Million.
• Florida has 18.3 Million compared to Georgia’s 9.6 Million.
• Mississippi has 2.9 Million but Southaven is a suburb of the Memphis / Germantown / Bartlett / West Memphis areas and is only a 2 hour drive from Little Rock (Arkansas doesn’t have a Super NIT) so the total population for that area is figured at about 10.5 Million.
• The Missouri Super NIT awards two berths and Oklahoma one because they’re the only Midwest Super NIT’s in a spread out area with a population of 17.1 Million.
• Michigan is the only one in the area and has a population of 10.2 Million.
• Southern Louisiana is a small area but draws its teams from South Texas (Houston 5.7 Million) and the surrounding areas giving it an effective population of 9.1 Million.
• The Shreveport Super NIT is a carryover from Dallas / Ft. Worth when they no longer could handle a 250 team event. Shreveport is due east about 175 miles and now has Dallas / Ft. Worth’s second berth.
• The Tennessee Super NIT is the corner (Tri-Cities Area) of TN and draws from Kentucky, Virginia & North Carolina with a total population of 11.3 Million.
By the way guys, the Elite WS Director is not from LA, he’s from Georgia so we can eliminate any coincidence. It’s all about numbers.
JCB
Posted - 01/02/2010 : 18:53:36
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Another question for Bubba; what does it take to get quadrupple points? I have been told in the past that multiples of points are based on the amount ($$) the tournament director (TD's) pays to USSSA. If that is correct than TD's are trying to lure more teams and fuller fields by offering more points - which in theory sounds great, but if the differentiation in awarded tournament points is supposed to be based on the type of event than that should be it - no double points, triple points, or now quadrupple points. Getting higher ranking and better seeding should not be based on doing better in a tournament that has paid up for points. That seems contrary to the concept of identifying the best based on tournament results. Also, the power rating of who a team has played should be the main criteria for determing rankings and resulting future seeding; and not points based on the number of tournaments. If identifying the Nation's best teams is the goal of the USSSA,then rewarding teams for playing a large number of USSSA events, and thus earning more points, should not be the driving force for the rankings.
What does everyone else think?
There are basically three levels of qualifying tournaments:
1) Qualifier – standard points
2) NIT – double points
3) Super NIT – quadruple points
See this link. http://www.usssa.com/sports/Legend.asp?LSport=11
In addition, each state has two “Double Point Weekends” each year. Every tournament played those weekends has automatic double points. In Georgia they are always the first weekend in May (April 30 – May 2 this year) and Memorial Day Weekend. So in effect, a “Double Point Weekend” makes a regular Qualifier like an NIT and an NIT like a Super NIT from a USSSA Points standing. As a note, if a Super NIT is scheduled on a double point weekend, the double points do not apply to the Super NIT.
USSSA Points are used for seeding because it rewards teams that play more USSSA. I know Publix won’t let you use your Kroger Discount Card and vice-versa. USSSA Power Ratings are the true ranking of teams top to bottom because it measures what a team does on the field. This is why the State Office relies heavily on USSSA Power Ratings for reclassification and not USSSA Points.
For The Love Of The Game!
Matt T. Trebuchon
Vice President - USSSA Baseball
1029 N. Peachtree Pkwy., Suite 213
Peachtree City, Georgia 30269
Tel: 678.719.8713 x115
Fax: 678.364.8923
Email: mtrebuchon@gausssabaseball.com
Web: www.gausssabaseball.com
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USSSA points and berths question
