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Bravemom
204 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2017 : 22:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Punishers stop with the fear mongering of throwing CF8's in the mix. One model of the zen is provisionally banned, may not even be a permanent ban depending on results. IF and that is a big IF the CF8's have the same issue, there is no way for USSSA or DeMarini to test them as they are pretty much out of circulation and majority have been phased out through attrition and breakage. No way they are going to waste their time on that nightmare. The Zen is still on the market and in production, CF8's you will be lucky if there are a couple hundred left at the end of the season, they just break and are a perishable item.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
TC and others will follow. It's UTRIP stamp on the bats that most if not all go by anyway. Just got word from a rep that the CF8's 2 3/4 are next to be banned. It's time for wood! If the kid can hit, he can hit. $350 for a youth bat is insane! Will not help the kid be a better -3 hitter anyway.
No refunds! Exchanges only!
Demarini was the one who pulled the bats, not UTRIP. Having constant returns and complaints was the cause. When you see a kid with bad swing mechanics barely tap the ball with a half swing and hit a 300ft bomb, something has to be up.
Enjoy the moment, but preserve the game.
No fear mongering. I'm a Demarini dealer. I have compression numbers of all their bats and know they will ban the CF8. The Zen is nothing but the 8 with different colors. Same exact bat. I've cut both open to prove so.
But what they hell do I know? I only have 3 engineering degrees.
We are still talking about the -10, right?
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2017 : 22:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravemom
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Punishers stop with the fear mongering of throwing CF8's in the mix. One model of the zen is provisionally banned, may not even be a permanent ban depending on results. IF and that is a big IF the CF8's have the same issue, there is no way for USSSA or DeMarini to test them as they are pretty much out of circulation and majority have been phased out through attrition and breakage. No way they are going to waste their time on that nightmare. The Zen is still on the market and in production, CF8's you will be lucky if there are a couple hundred left at the end of the season, they just break and are a perishable item.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
TC and others will follow. It's UTRIP stamp on the bats that most if not all go by anyway. Just got word from a rep that the CF8's 2 3/4 are next to be banned. It's time for wood! If the kid can hit, he can hit. $350 for a youth bat is insane! Will not help the kid be a better -3 hitter anyway.
No refunds! Exchanges only!
Demarini was the one who pulled the bats, not UTRIP. Having constant returns and complaints was the cause. When you see a kid with bad swing mechanics barely tap the ball with a half swing and hit a 300ft bomb, something has to be up.
Enjoy the moment, but preserve the game.
No fear mongering. I'm a Demarini dealer. I have compression numbers of all their bats and know they will ban the CF8. The Zen is nothing but the 8 with different colors. Same exact bat. I've cut both open to prove so.
But what they hell do I know? I only have 3 engineering degrees.
We are still talking about the -10, right?
Correct. 2 3/4" barrel that forever produces more foul balls than anything. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 10:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
It was only a matter of time before this happened. The bat has compression numbers way below the 1.15 BPF standard from USSSA. Looks like more concerned parents complained than expected and got their attention.
Ban all of them and just swing wood. No need to pay all that money for a bat. Can buy 3 to 5 Maple bats for $350.
Why the change of heart? You've been all about the CF's for a while (see bat reviews portion of forum), and 'hot bats' in general:
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The 2015 Demarini CF8-Green is king of the hill. The new CF-Zen is about the same as the Combat Maxum. I have a Black Bat prototype that is just insane.
http://www.nwgabaseball.org/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76483
So, while you reference doing away with... It appears you also like, want/covet the trampoline bats too!???! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 11:31:22
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If it's legal and gives a team an advantage why not want/covet it?
If you want to talk about dangerous, let's talk about USSSA 14u swinging drop 10's....THAT is dangerous. |
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ofs13
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 11:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you want to talk about dangerous, let's talk about USSSA 14u swinging drop 10's....THAT is dangerous.
Play TC or PG at that age, and don't worry about that being an issue. Both require -3 at 14, and PG requires -5 at 13. |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 11:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
No fear mongering. I'm a Demarini dealer. I have compression numbers of all their bats and know they will ban the CF8. The Zen is nothing but the 8 with different colors. Same exact bat. I've cut both open to prove so.
But what they hell do I know? I only have 3 engineering degrees.
Punishers
Would love for you to share those compression numbers that you have on any and all bats. More for curiosity sake than anything else.
And the ones you cut open, were they perfectly good working bats? That sounds more insane than the parent spending 350 to buy one for their kid.
CF8 may be similar to the zen, but it is not, different composite material so you can't throw the blanket paint scheme statement out there. Also, how can USSSA go back and do additional testing if there is nothing for them to test on. Do you think anybody who still has a CF8 is really going to give it up for testing, to ban a couple hundred bats still left out there? Because they are pretty much all cracked or replaced by now.
Personally, I think this was Easton going after DeMarini because their Mako was losing market share big time to DeMarini. Combat was starting to beat Easton, so they acquired them. Also keep in mind Wilson owns both Louisville Slugger and DeMarini a competitor of Easton. Couple that with the new "USA Bat" standard next year and the constant desire to keep selling new bats, this totally smells of a big corporate scheme to get us parents to have to buy new bats. My question is how did the bat receive the stamp in the 1st place and why was the bat ever approved from day 1? I question the timing of all of this, Did someone get hurt somewhere? Is there something else wrong with the bat besides the BPF ie breakage and flying pieces. There is more to this story than just the 1.15 standard.
I'll admit, up until the CF8/Zen, I've always bought the previous years Easton S3 marked down from justbats.com. So, I know there is a difference, but I don't think it is as dramatic as people are making it out to be either. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 16:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
No fear mongering. I'm a Demarini dealer. I have compression numbers of all their bats and know they will ban the CF8. The Zen is nothing but the 8 with different colors. Same exact bat. I've cut both open to prove so.
But what they hell do I know? I only have 3 engineering degrees.
Punishers
Would love for you to share those compression numbers that you have on any and all bats. More for curiosity sake than anything else.
And the ones you cut open, were they perfectly good working bats? That sounds more insane than the parent spending 350 to buy one for their kid.
CF8 may be similar to the zen, but it is not, different composite material so you can't throw the blanket paint scheme statement out there. Also, how can USSSA go back and do additional testing if there is nothing for them to test on. Do you think anybody who still has a CF8 is really going to give it up for testing, to ban a couple hundred bats still left out there? Because they are pretty much all cracked or replaced by now.
Personally, I think this was Easton going after DeMarini because their Mako was losing market share big time to DeMarini. Combat was starting to beat Easton, so they acquired them. Also keep in mind Wilson owns both Louisville Slugger and DeMarini a competitor of Easton. Couple that with the new "USA Bat" standard next year and the constant desire to keep selling new bats, this totally smells of a big corporate scheme to get us parents to have to buy new bats. My question is how did the bat receive the stamp in the 1st place and why was the bat ever approved from day 1? I question the timing of all of this, Did someone get hurt somewhere? Is there something else wrong with the bat besides the BPF ie breakage and flying pieces. There is more to this story than just the 1.15 standard.
I'll admit, up until the CF8/Zen, I've always bought the previous years Easton S3 marked down from justbats.com. So, I know there is a difference, but I don't think it is as dramatic as people are making it out to be either.
Sure. Shoot me an email. Plus i didn't pay for the bats i cut open. (dealer freebies-perfectly new bats, cut the shrink wrap on too) Then again I would never pay $350 for a bat to begin with.
I work with composites, so i know that CF8 is the exact same bat. Measured the walls and everything. Same pre-preg, same angle of layup, and same epoxy.
We can go deeper if you want, but I'm sure you will get lost when we get to the calculations and physics of it. A lot more engineering involved than just turning round maple stock from a pattern on a lathe.
That engineering comes with a cost. That's why the bats are $350 a pop.
--------------------------
TC allows wood bats for any age group. |
Edited by - Punishers on 03/22/2017 19:58:07 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 01:25:44
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quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
No fear mongering. I'm a Demarini dealer. I have compression numbers of all their bats and know they will ban the CF8. The Zen is nothing but the 8 with different colors. Same exact bat. I've cut both open to prove so.
But what they hell do I know? I only have 3 engineering degrees.
Punishers
Would love for you to share those compression numbers that you have on any and all bats. More for curiosity sake than anything else.
And the ones you cut open, were they perfectly good working bats? That sounds more insane than the parent spending 350 to buy one for their kid.
CF8 may be similar to the zen, but it is not, different composite material so you can't throw the blanket paint scheme statement out there. Also, how can USSSA go back and do additional testing if there is nothing for them to test on. Do you think anybody who still has a CF8 is really going to give it up for testing, to ban a couple hundred bats still left out there? Because they are pretty much all cracked or replaced by now.
Personally, I think this was Easton going after DeMarini because their Mako was losing market share big time to DeMarini. Combat was starting to beat Easton, so they acquired them. Also keep in mind Wilson owns both Louisville Slugger and DeMarini a competitor of Easton. Couple that with the new "USA Bat" standard next year and the constant desire to keep selling new bats, this totally smells of a big corporate scheme to get us parents to have to buy new bats. My question is how did the bat receive the stamp in the 1st place and why was the bat ever approved from day 1? I question the timing of all of this, Did someone get hurt somewhere? Is there something else wrong with the bat besides the BPF ie breakage and flying pieces. There is more to this story than just the 1.15 standard.
I'll admit, up until the CF8/Zen, I've always bought the previous years Easton S3 marked down from justbats.com. So, I know there is a difference, but I don't think it is as dramatic as people are making it out to be either.
You may be right about Easton. Not counting that out either. I have S3 Compression number too. It appears the bat that Demarini sent in for 1.15 BPF certification was not the bat being produced and sold. Like all Eastons, the Demarini composite bats are out-sourced to be manufactured. From my understanding, Demarini is conducting the testing not USSSA. The Barrels on the 8 and Zens are just too thin to hold up over time and the compression numbers are in a range of their own.
http://www.barrelcompression.com/
Now would I shell out $300 plus for new bat because of the new bat standard? Nope! It will either be a BBCOR or wood. Have no idea whey many are fearing moving to wood and bringing back some normalcy back to the game and not false impressions. Plus it will hurt the bat companies that produce a new model bat every year they expect people to buy . Unless people of so caught up in getting instant results and would rather circumvent the work and time involved to see real results for the unrealistic, for now results.
When people finally come around to using wood, I guess there will be an influx of 25 inch bats and not the composite length bats normally swung.
Compression numbers:
http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/kckrawford/media/Bat%20Info%20Pg%202.png.html |
Edited by - Punishers on 03/23/2017 10:20:04 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 09:29:55
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Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
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BaseballNut123
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 11:08:20
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Any word on the custom Zen?
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
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coolbeans
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 12:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
Where are you getting this information? Is there an announcement or a clarification coming? I know the USSSA announcement only mentions the blue and white bat and SKU# but the voucher page on the Demarini site notes all custom and special edition bats are suspended as well. We have the zero dark and I'm not letting my son use it on a technicality. I need to know that they have said the zero dark is legal. I called Demarini just a few minutes ago and the warranty department rep had not heard anything about this. He said the zero dark is the same exact bat with different paint and should be part of the suspension. I don't know what to believe anymore? |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 12:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by coolbeans
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
Where are you getting this information? Is there an announcement or a clarification coming? I know the USSSA announcement only mentions the blue and white bat and SKU# but the voucher page on the Demarini site notes all custom and special edition bats are suspended as well. We have the zero dark and I'm not letting my son use it on a technicality. I need to know that they have said the zero dark is legal. I called Demarini just a few minutes ago and the warranty department rep had not heard anything about this. He said the zero dark is the same exact bat with different paint and should be part of the suspension. I don't know what to believe anymore?
I got my info from a rep last night. Guess they decided to ban both of them. Who needs a 2 3/4 barrel anyway? Can only hit so much surface of the ball. A true hitter can hit regardless what bat they use. |
Edited by - Punishers on 03/23/2017 12:28:57 |
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coolbeans
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 12:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by coolbeans
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
Where are you getting this information? Is there an announcement or a clarification coming? I know the USSSA announcement only mentions the blue and white bat and SKU# but the voucher page on the Demarini site notes all custom and special edition bats are suspended as well. We have the zero dark and I'm not letting my son use it on a technicality. I need to know that they have said the zero dark is legal. I called Demarini just a few minutes ago and the warranty department rep had not heard anything about this. He said the zero dark is the same exact bat with different paint and should be part of the suspension. I don't know what to believe anymore?
I got my info from a rep last night. Guess they decided to ban both of them. Who needs a 2 3/4 barrel anyway? Can only hit so much surface of the ball. A true hitter can hit regardless what bat they use.
So you are saying you feel the rep is wrong and you know of no announcement that is coming excluding the zero dark from the suspension? Can you try and clarify from him? Its not really about the 2 3/4" barrel at this point. Its about the fact that we own the bat and simply want the situation resolved so we can use it or get a replacement. Thanks for anything you can find out while we wait for the official announcement.
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Edited by - coolbeans on 03/23/2017 12:37:24 |
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cmrobinson
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 13:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by coolbeans
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by coolbeans
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Update:
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17 is banned (Blue and White)
SKU: WTDXCBZ-17F1 is not (Zero Dark)
Good luck trying to find a Zero Dark as they are in limited production and made with different composites.
Where are you getting this information? Is there an announcement or a clarification coming? I know the USSSA announcement only mentions the blue and white bat and SKU# but the voucher page on the Demarini site notes all custom and special edition bats are suspended as well. We have the zero dark and I'm not letting my son use it on a technicality. I need to know that they have said the zero dark is legal. I called Demarini just a few minutes ago and the warranty department rep had not heard anything about this. He said the zero dark is the same exact bat with different paint and should be part of the suspension. I don't know what to believe anymore?
I got my info from a rep last night. Guess they decided to ban both of them. Who needs a 2 3/4 barrel anyway? Can only hit so much surface of the ball. A true hitter can hit regardless what bat they use.
So you are saying you feel the rep is wrong and you know of no announcement that is coming excluding the zero dark from the suspension? Can you try and clarify from him? Its not really about the 2 3/4" barrel at this point. Its about the fact that we own the bat and simply want the situation resolved so we can use it or get a replacement. Thanks for anything you can find out while we wait for the official announcement.
https://twitter.com/DeMarini/status/843083742709202945
quote:
Yes, unfortunately the Zero Dark bats are temporarily ineligible also. We're very sorry.
DeMarini posted that to Twitter in response to the same question regarding the Zero Dark model. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 13:39:22
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| Coolbeans why don't you call betterbaseball? They may have more details on the ban, what's been banned, and about the reimbursement program. |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 13:45:15
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| I don't know much about the bats now but I have returned Easton's and Louisville Sluggers with no issues, had a composite Demarini and it was like pulling teeth to get them to give a replacement after the bat shattered after a couple of months. They never did honor their warranty. Bat was a CF3 and it was crazy hot. Went back to LS and will never return to Demarini again because of that poor CS. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 22:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
It was only a matter of time before this happened. The bat has compression numbers way below the 1.15 BPF standard from USSSA. Looks like more concerned parents complained than expected and got their attention.
Ban all of them and just swing wood. No need to pay all that money for a bat. Can buy 3 to 5 Maple bats for $350.
Why the change of heart? You've been all about the CF's for a while (see bat reviews portion of forum), and 'hot bats' in general:
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The 2015 Demarini CF8-Green is king of the hill. The new CF-Zen is about the same as the Combat Maxum. I have a Black Bat prototype that is just insane.
http://www.nwgabaseball.org/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76483
So, while you reference doing away with... It appears you also like, want/covet the trampoline bats too!???!
I'm not a fan of false results. Seen too many kids hit hr's with bad mechanics and not enough power with that bat. Not realistic results; as was seen from the Super NIT this past weekend when the bats were removed. Made good hitting teams look below average.
People have gotten so caught up with bat pop and results for now they do not see the potential growth. Composite bats can't be used is NCAA and most high schools organizations, why crutch youth baseball with them?
Granted, kids are not as strong as my generation growing up, but there comes a time where they have to stand on their own merit.
Wood rules IMO. Those who can't swing it will surely fail and quit. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 07:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
I'm not a fan of false results. Seen too many kids hit hr's with bad mechanics and not enough power with that bat. Not realistic results; as was seen from the Super NIT this past weekend when the bats were removed. Made good hitting teams look below average.
People have gotten so caught up with bat pop and results for now they do not see the potential growth. Composite bats can't be used is NCAA and most high schools organizations, why crutch youth baseball with them?
Granted, kids are not as strong as my generation growing up, but there comes a time where they have to stand on their own merit.
Wood rules IMO. Those who can't swing it will surely fail and quit.
My son swings a composite BBCOR bat in high school. He also swings wood when the mood strikes him. He keeps both with him and I see no difference in how far the ball goes.
Kids are not as strong as your generation???? Huh???? There are several 2020's throwing in the 90's and a 13 year old just hit 87 last weekend. Are kids working on farms to build their muscles...no. Are they hitting the bands and weight rooms and taking speed and agility classes more than they attend school classes...yup!
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 09:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
I'm not a fan of false results. Seen too many kids hit hr's with bad mechanics and not enough power with that bat. Not realistic results; as was seen from the Super NIT this past weekend when the bats were removed. Made good hitting teams look below average.
People have gotten so caught up with bat pop and results for now they do not see the potential growth. Composite bats can't be used is NCAA and most high schools organizations, why crutch youth baseball with them?
Granted, kids are not as strong as my generation growing up, but there comes a time where they have to stand on their own merit.
Wood rules IMO. Those who can't swing it will surely fail and quit.
My son swings a composite BBCOR bat in high school. He also swings wood when the mood strikes him. He keeps both with him and I see no difference in how far the ball goes.
Kids are not as strong as your generation???? Huh???? There are several 2020's throwing in the 90's and a 13 year old just hit 87 last weekend. Are kids working on farms to build their muscles...no. Are they hitting the bands and weight rooms and taking speed and agility classes more than they attend school classes...yup!
I did say "most high school organizations".
Keep in mind we didn't have all the training that kids are getting now and still had guys throwing in the mid 90's without living in the weight room and bands didn't exist. The speed and agility came from playing other sports.
If you take the training they get now away and let them train like we did, they would not be where they are now. Just like if you take away electronic devices. Would not know what to do with themselves. |
Edited by - Punishers on 03/24/2017 10:10:27 |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 09:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
It was only a matter of time before this happened. The bat has compression numbers way below the 1.15 BPF standard from USSSA. Looks like more concerned parents complained than expected and got their attention.
Ban all of them and just swing wood. No need to pay all that money for a bat. Can buy 3 to 5 Maple bats for $350.
Why the change of heart? You've been all about the CF's for a while (see bat reviews portion of forum), and 'hot bats' in general:
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The 2015 Demarini CF8-Green is king of the hill. The new CF-Zen is about the same as the Combat Maxum. I have a Black Bat prototype that is just insane.
http://www.nwgabaseball.org/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=76483
So, while you reference doing away with... It appears you also like, want/covet the trampoline bats too!???!
I'm not a fan of false results. Seen too many kids hit hr's with bad mechanics and not enough power with that bat. Not realistic results; as was seen from the Super NIT this past weekend when the bats were removed. Made good hitting teams look below average.
People have gotten so caught up with bat pop and results for now they do not see the potential growth. Composite bats can't be used is NCAA and most high schools organizations, why crutch youth baseball with them?
Granted, kids are not as strong as my generation growing up, but there comes a time where they have to stand on their own merit.
Wood rules IMO. Those who can't swing it will surely fail and quit.
I'm in the same boat. I don't really like the composite bats for my kid (especially the light ones). For the life of me I don't know why any kid that is 11 and up would be swinging a -10 bat. I can understand if you are smaller than average. However a lot of people do want the hot bat. I get it, believe me I do. I understand using the best "tool" available to do the job. I would rather my kid prepare for what's coming next.
He used a -8 at 11u and a -3 (wood) / -5 (aluminum) in the fall. Now he is full time with the -5 during this spring. Working towards the BBCOR for the coming fall. My kid isn't huge, he is a little above average size wise and he has to be ready to work well within the requirements of the older age groups. BONUS, the Easton -5 aluminum bat was dirt cheap!!! |
Edited by - ABC_Baseball on 03/24/2017 10:03:56 |
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Zigzag3141
24 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:13:35
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I've got twins playing 10U. One has the standard CF Zen -10 ($375 w/tax) and the other has a 'custom graphic' -10 Zen he got for Christmas ($515). Yes, the prices are absurd, but baseball is what we do. And it was the only thing they wanted for the holidays.
This ruling really stinks and something doesn't seem right...
If this was truly a 'safety' issue why would it only be the Zen which is sanctioned as others have pointed out? More likely, I think this is forced attrition of a defective product by Wilson.
Our standard Zen we've already had to return twice due to breakage. At some point the warranty claims ruin product profitability and it becomes more cost effective to kill the product. Citing a rules violation is one way to do this.
My guess is that the ban is only temporary. Wilson/Demarini will scare people into returning their bats for different models and take as many Zen's out of circulation as possible while also eating thru the warranty period.
We do this all the time in the oil industry both with products and people. A few years back Shell Oil literally fired everyone! No one had jobs and the entire company was forced to 'repost' for their positions. A lot of the older guys got fed up and took early retirement packages (which is exactly what the company wanted because it helped to manage the variables of unknown staff turnover and pension costs).
Product-wise, we once had VPower diesel fuel, but killed the product because we claimed 'fuel efficiency' benefits. As soon FedEx and other major commercial fuel accounts didnt see a benefit we ended up getting sued; so we killed the product and claimed this was due to noncompliance with the ASTM D975 standard (i.e., we couldnt admit the fuel just didnt give better fuel economy as originally claimed).
Guys, this is nothing but marketing and I hope we can stick together on a resolution with Demarini. I do believe in their products and their customer service truly is best in class. I'm confident they'll do the right thing here.
However, they're gonna have to do better than a $350 credit in my opinion. Those of us who have these bats have much more invested than that.
Question to the group: what response from Demarini would make you happy?
Here's what I propose:
1) Demarini petition USSSA for a tempory waiver thru the 2017 season for the -10 Zen
2) -10 Zen is immediately discontinued a not offered for sale
3) End all warranty claims on the -10 Zen.
4) At the end of 2017 season, any original owner of the -10 Zen (with proof of purchase) can turn his bat in for new USABat compliant model, with a free upgrade to custom graphics.
Anything less than above and I'm thinking Class Action is ahead for them.
At the end of the day, bottom line, they sold us a non-compliant BPF certified product which has put our kids at risk.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
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Originally posted by Punishers
I'm not a fan of false results. Seen too many kids hit hr's with bad mechanics and not enough power with that bat. Not realistic results; as was seen from the Super NIT this past weekend when the bats were removed. Made good hitting teams look below average.
People have gotten so caught up with bat pop and results for now they do not see the potential growth. Composite bats can't be used is NCAA and most high schools organizations, why crutch youth baseball with them?
Granted, kids are not as strong as my generation growing up, but there comes a time where they have to stand on their own merit.
Wood rules IMO. Those who can't swing it will surely fail and quit.
My son swings a composite BBCOR bat in high school. He also swings wood when the mood strikes him. He keeps both with him and I see no difference in how far the ball goes.
Kids are not as strong as your generation???? Huh???? There are several 2020's throwing in the 90's and a 13 year old just hit 87 last weekend. Are kids working on farms to build their muscles...no. Are they hitting the bands and weight rooms and taking speed and agility classes more than they attend school classes...yup!
I did say "most high school organizations".
Keep in mind we didn't have all the training that kids are getting now and still had guys throwing in the mid 90's without living in the weight room and bands didn't exist. The speed and agility came from playing other sports.
If you take the training they get now away and let them train like we did, they would not be where they are now. Just like if you take away electronic devices. Would not know what to do with themselves.
There use to be a problem with composite bats back in 2009/2010. The NCAA found that after a break in period the bats no longer met the BESR standard and banned everything composite TEMPORARILY. Then BBCOR came out and now composites are back and better than ever.
This is a list of "NCAA and NFHS BBCOR Approved Baseball Bats" and it lists the Mako Beast so I'm assuming this is pretty darn current. And it contains MANY composite bats.
http://www.mme.wsu-ssl.org/certifiedbaseballbats.aspx
What makes you say composite aren't being used in MOST high schools and colleges? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:42:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zigzag3141
I've got twins playing 10U. One has the standard CF Zen -10 ($375 w/tax) and the other has a 'custom graphic' -10 Zen he got for Christmas ($515). Yes, the prices are absurd, but baseball is what we do. And it was the only thing they wanted for the holidays.
This ruling really stinks and something doesn't seem right...
If this was truly a 'safety' issue why would it only be the Zen which is sanctioned as others have pointed out? More likely, I think this is forced attrition of a defective product by Wilson.
Our standard Zen we've already had to return twice due to breakage. At some point the warranty claims ruin product profitability and it becomes more cost effective to kill the product. Citing a rules violation is one way to do this.
My guess is that the ban is only temporary. Wilson/Demarini will scare people into returning their bats for different models and take as many Zen's out of circulation as possible while also eating thru the warranty period.
We do this all the time in the oil industry both with products and people. A few years back Shell Oil literally fired everyone! No one had jobs and the entire company was forced to 'repost' for their positions. A lot of the older guys got fed up and took early retirement packages (which is exactly what the company wanted because it helped to manage the variables of unknown staff turnover and pension costs).
Product-wise, we once had VPower diesel fuel, but killed the product because we claimed 'fuel efficiency' benefits. As soon FedEx and other major commercial fuel accounts didnt see a benefit we ended up getting sued; so we killed the product and claimed this was due to noncompliance with the ASTM D975 standard (i.e., we couldnt admit the fuel just didnt give better fuel economy as originally claimed).
Guys, this is nothing but marketing and I hope we can stick together on a resolution with Demarini. I do believe in their products and their customer service truly is best in class. I'm confident they'll do the right thing here.
However, they're gonna have to do better than a $350 credit in my opinion. Those of us who have these bats have much more invested than that.
Question to the group: what response from Demarini would make you happy?
Here's what I propose:
1) Demarini petition USSSA for a tempory waiver thru the 2017 season for the -10 Zen
2) -10 Zen is immediately discontinued a not offered for sale
3) End all warranty claims on the -10 Zen.
4) At the end of 2017 season, any original owner of the -10 Zen (with proof of purchase) can turn his bat in for new USABat compliant model, with a free upgrade to custom graphics.
Anything less than above and I'm thinking Class Action is ahead for them.
At the end of the day, bottom line, they sold us a non-compliant BPF certified product which has put our kids at risk.
Demarini is playing it off that they accidentally sent the wrong bat in for testing...what they sent in wasn't what they produced. Might be a paperwork glitch...might not be. |
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5 necklaces 4 armbands
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:52:37
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| If it's really a safety issue, and I do believe it is, I'd just prefer they pull it before another kid gets his eye socket crushed on the mound. I'm with Punisher on this, although not to the extreme of all wooden bats, especially in young age groups but there's got to be a happy medium. There's such a broad spectrum in kids' size and strength and pitchers are so close at these young age groups I'd prefer they not allow these crazy hot composite bats in baseball, period. I'm for aluminum or BBCOR, or wood if you'd like, across the board. Learn to square it up if you want a base hit. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zigzag3141
Question to the group: what response from Demarini would make you happy?
Here's what I propose:
1) Demarini petition USSSA for a tempory waiver thru the 2017 season for the -10 Zen
2) -10 Zen is immediately discontinued a not offered for sale
3) End all warranty claims on the -10 Zen.
4) At the end of 2017 season, any original owner of the -10 Zen (with proof of purchase) can turn his bat in for new USABat compliant model, with a free upgrade to custom graphics.
Anything less than above and I'm thinking Class Action is ahead for them.
While, emotionally, I'd have a tendency to agree with you, in terms of 'class action' or doing more, Demarini has gone above/beyond in indemnifying consumers. $350 credit/voucher, period. No questions. Original owner or not. Bought retail or not. Warranty replacement or not. BUSTED/CRACKED or not. $350 is what you get, if you return one. That's called "indemnifying" you. You've been reimbursed. NOW, my one issue is, you must replace with a Wilson/DeMarini product (inc. Louisville Slugger). Maybe I ONLY wanted the Zen, due to performance, and would have otherwise sought a different manufacturer. That stinks, but again, you've gotten your money back (only to spend at THEIR place).
Class action? Nah, doubt it. That's an emotional response. |
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Demarini CF Zen banned by USSSA
