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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2017 : 07:41:21
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So, I am not calling out specific teams or specific organizations but I heard this from a pretty reliable source yesterday and I have to ask, are you parents allowing your children to play in 2 tourneys per weekend? I heard two scenarios:
Example 1:
Academy Team A and Academy Team B are scheduled to be in the same tourney.
Team A gets knocked out in the first round of bracket play...so the top 3 players head over to play on Team B, who ultimatum wins the tourney thanks to having an influx of fresh pitching and Team A's number 4 hitter.
Is that really how some places do things?
Example 2:
Player John Smith is an excellent pitcher for 14u. He peaked early and can REALLY throw it. In order to capitalize on John's great arm his academy has instructed him to throw Saturday in the TC tourney and Sunday in the PG tourney. Since it's two separate organizations pitch count won't come into play and he is technically on both rosters, so it's not against the rules.
Parents.....please tell me no one is jeopardizing their children's arms like this! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me that these two scenarios are totally fictitious and no one has ever heard of either of these happening in real life. |
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 09:33:04
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| I saw it at age 12. Coach came driving in with kids all dirty clothing. They were in a usssa with one team and TC with another. You can even skirt pitching rules if you want as it's only documented in one. also I see pitching in some events like last week only list shirt number not Player name. Why they allow that is bad but I blame site director for only using number |
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Cajunjeep
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 10:24:17
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You can be on multiple rosters but not play in the same tournament on the same weekend.
But, I find it hard to believe that anyone is playing in the same tournament on two teams, but that doesn't mean it is not happening. Most of the tournaments have rules against that.
I do see kids that play for one team on Friday in Tournament A and then another on Saturday and Sunday in tournament B.
Happened last weekend on a few rosters with the Triple Crown tourney Saturday and then PG 1 day tournament on Sunday. |
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beckjeff04
33 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 10:28:31
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| Just saw this at 10u last week. Two kids on "A" team played Friday then went over and played another tournament(different organization) on Saturday for the "B" team. |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 11:57:24
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There are plenty of really bad, just-plain-wrong scenarios that could play out, for sure. Especially when it comes to doubling-up on pitching and exceeding what a single tourney would normally allow for a kid; if that's happening, they SHOULD be called out by name in this forum!
But, there are also some perfectly harmless scenarios that I could see happening. Not every team has a roster deep enough to handle some of the surprises that might come up and cause a player or two to miss a tourney. If a few top players from a B team play up with their A team to make sure they have enough kids and/or get some valuable experience, I don't see any problem with that. Obviously, if a few top players from an A team play down with their B team just so they can steal tourney win -- while a few lowly B-teamers ride the bench -- that is wrong!
I would like to think that the teams/organizations that do garbage stuff like that eventually get what they deserve, but I have a pretty good feeling that's unfortunately not always the case.
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 12:02:52
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| Playing, and different tourneys are one thing... PITCHING for multiple teams over a weekend, is ridiculous, and hap-hazard of the parents. Boarder line abuse in my opinion. Sure, if you kid is a position player, or didn't pitch Friday, but can contribute Sunday (different team/different tourney) that's reasonable. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 13:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Playing, and different tourneys are one thing... PITCHING for multiple teams over a weekend, is ridiculous, and hap-hazard of the parents. Boarder line abuse in my opinion. Sure, if you kid is a position player, or didn't pitch Friday, but can contribute Sunday (different team/different tourney) that's reasonable.
Why is that reasonable? How about the concept that kids make ONE team, they play for THAT team, and win or loose that is THEIR team?
Kind of defeats the whole concept of children bonding with their team, getting a team chemistry, giving blood sweat and tears for YOUR team. If you keep swapping teams your kid is a glorified pick up player and it really defeats many of the great things that travel ball can give to a kid. |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 14:16:08
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Don't all the major tournament groups specifically say you can only be on one roster for that weekend?
I guess the way around is play in different tournaments (USSSA/Trip crown/PG/etc.)...
As for how parents feel, as long as the coach is doing what he said he was going to do - and you signed up...is what it is. |
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catmando
107 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 14:34:16
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It is absurd to quote rules..we all know teams get around them and yes i have seen kids play for team blue on saturday and team green on Sunday in the SAME event..UNLESS they have pitched no one really is looking back at scribble on score books or how would you even find one?
Like said before you can be on more than one roster but by rules once you play you are with that team BUT who really knows? I play at Coal Mountain Saturday and get eliminated and show up at Chattahoochee the next do you really know? parents love to see their kids play ball and a lot of coaches will do what it takes for the win. When places have 2-4 teams per age group its easy to mix and match |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 15:57:42
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| I know kids do this...I think it's ok but NOT if you are a pitcher....not necessarily even the same academy. But some kids do play for more than one team, even in the same weekend. |
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hangwiffem
69 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2017 : 17:08:07
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| This is usually a product of coaches/"leaders" of organizations focused on $$$ and then realize they don't have enough players to field the number of teams that were promised to families. So then rules get skirted.... |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2017 : 08:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
So, I am not calling out specific teams or specific organizations but I heard this from a pretty reliable source yesterday and I have to ask, are you parents allowing your children to play in 2 tourneys per weekend? I heard two scenarios:
Example 1:
Academy Team A and Academy Team B are scheduled to be in the same tourney.
Team A gets knocked out in the first round of bracket play...so the top 3 players head over to play on Team B, who ultimatum wins the tourney thanks to having an influx of fresh pitching and Team A's number 4 hitter.
Is that really how some places do things?
Example 2:
Player John Smith is an excellent pitcher for 14u. He peaked early and can REALLY throw it. In order to capitalize on John's great arm his academy has instructed him to throw Saturday in the TC tourney and Sunday in the PG tourney. Since it's two separate organizations pitch count won't come into play and he is technically on both rosters, so it's not against the rules.
Parents.....please tell me no one is jeopardizing their children's arms like this! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE tell me that these two scenarios are totally fictitious and no one has ever heard of either of these happening in real life.
B you've been around long enough I am surprised you have not seen this before.................or maybe you just didnt realize it
I saw it at 11u, but if the score keeper from the Eventual champions team didnt say anything to us, we'd never have known. She simple said, "thats not the same team we played in pool play." I went and got our line up, and we compared-complete different team!...............it got really ugly, but they got busted and ejected. |
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Bombernation
51 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2017 : 08:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by hangwiffem
This is usually a product of coaches/"leaders" of organizations focused on $$$ and then realize they don't have enough players to field the number of teams that were promised to families. So then rules get skirted....
Our organization strictly forbids our players for playing for another team. This may change as you get into 16-18's but you will get approval to play a showcase in Nebraska, etc. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2017 : 19:49:51
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| I talked to a dad today who said it was not unusual for kids to swap teams in middle of a tourney if they are all under the same umbrella IE academy team. If one team is in gold they may move a few kids around to add depth or if a team gets eliminated they may expand their other roster. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2017 : 07:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
I talked to a dad today who said it was not unusual for kids to swap teams in middle of a tourney if they are all under the same umbrella IE academy team. If one team is in gold they may move a few kids around to add depth or if a team gets eliminated they may expand their other roster.
Wow....just wow. So when a kid gets asked "Who do you play for" I guess they have to answer Academy X...not TEAM X...nope, Academy X. |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2017 : 11:59:27
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I don't think it's absurd to quote rules...agree it would be absurd to think they are followed. I think most have on line rosters now, so if a kid's team loses on Field 1, then walks over to Field 2 and plays (particularly same age group/level) most Tournament Directors would enforce this if (big if, obviously someone has to notice and then feel the need to bring it up) someone challenged it. A kid on one team in one tournament playing 2 games then 2 others later at a different tournament.. happens all the time and don't see an issue with it.
To the original poster - If by "fair" you are talking about kids losing playing time due to kids being picked up, that's where it comes down to did the coach/academy tell you this would/could happen?
quote:
Originally posted by catmando
It is absurd to quote rules..we all know teams get around them and yes i have seen kids play for team blue on saturday and team green on Sunday in the SAME event..UNLESS they have pitched no one really is looking back at scribble on score books or how would you even find one?
Like said before you can be on more than one roster but by rules once you play you are with that team BUT who really knows? I play at Coal Mountain Saturday and get eliminated and show up at Chattahoochee the next do you really know? parents love to see their kids play ball and a lot of coaches will do what it takes for the win. When places have 2-4 teams per age group its easy to mix and match
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 07:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by tbaillie2
I don't think it's absurd to quote rules...agree it would be absurd to think they are followed. I think most have on line rosters now, so if a kid's team loses on Field 1, then walks over to Field 2 and plays (particularly same age group/level) most Tournament Directors would enforce this if (big if, obviously someone has to notice and then feel the need to bring it up) someone challenged it. A kid on one team in one tournament playing 2 games then 2 others later at a different tournament.. happens all the time and don't see an issue with it.
To the original poster - If by "fair" you are talking about kids losing playing time due to kids being picked up, that's where it comes down to did the coach/academy tell you this would/could happen?
quote:
Originally posted by catmando
It is absurd to quote rules..we all know teams get around them and yes i have seen kids play for team blue on saturday and team green on Sunday in the SAME event..UNLESS they have pitched no one really is looking back at scribble on score books or how would you even find one?
Like said before you can be on more than one roster but by rules once you play you are with that team BUT who really knows? I play at Coal Mountain Saturday and get eliminated and show up at Chattahoochee the next do you really know? parents love to see their kids play ball and a lot of coaches will do what it takes for the win. When places have 2-4 teams per age group its easy to mix and match
My issue with it is that it affects the integrity of the game. One player has ONE team. If your team is off one weekend and another team needs players due to vacation/injury then playing a pick up game is fine, but this idea that one kid can float around just sits badly with me.
How is a kid suppose to get better with multiple coaching philosophies? How is a team suppose to gel and get to really know each others abilities if there could be 10 different kids playing Center Field? How is a kid suppose to care if his "team" wins or looses if he doesn't really have a team?
These parents are allowing their children to be mercenaries...they have no team, and if they have no team they are missing what it means to be on a team and the life lessons that come with that. |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2017 : 21:13:15
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I do not disagree at all with what you are saying....
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by tbaillie2
I don't think it's absurd to quote rules...agree it would be absurd to think they are followed. I think most have on line rosters now, so if a kid's team loses on Field 1, then walks over to Field 2 and plays (particularly same age group/level) most Tournament Directors would enforce this if (big if, obviously someone has to notice and then feel the need to bring it up) someone challenged it. A kid on one team in one tournament playing 2 games then 2 others later at a different tournament.. happens all the time and don't see an issue with it.
To the original poster - If by "fair" you are talking about kids losing playing time due to kids being picked up, that's where it comes down to did the coach/academy tell you this would/could happen?
quote:
Originally posted by catmando
It is absurd to quote rules..we all know teams get around them and yes i have seen kids play for team blue on saturday and team green on Sunday in the SAME event..UNLESS they have pitched no one really is looking back at scribble on score books or how would you even find one?
Like said before you can be on more than one roster but by rules once you play you are with that team BUT who really knows? I play at Coal Mountain Saturday and get eliminated and show up at Chattahoochee the next do you really know? parents love to see their kids play ball and a lot of coaches will do what it takes for the win. When places have 2-4 teams per age group its easy to mix and match
My issue with it is that it affects the integrity of the game. One player has ONE team. If your team is off one weekend and another team needs players due to vacation/injury then playing a pick up game is fine, but this idea that one kid can float around just sits badly with me.
How is a kid suppose to get better with multiple coaching philosophies? How is a team suppose to gel and get to really know each others abilities if there could be 10 different kids playing Center Field? How is a kid suppose to care if his "team" wins or looses if he doesn't really have a team?
These parents are allowing their children to be mercenaries...they have no team, and if they have no team they are missing what it means to be on a team and the life lessons that come with that.
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2017 : 01:08:31
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Ive seen big programs including the one my son played for borrow players based on who was still alive in the tourney and who wasnt. Especially with PG, if a player hasn't played in a game yet he can go play wherever he wants. A lot of times you will see kids listed on multiple rosters, especially jupiter or 17u wwba championship.
I dont see much wrong with it, in that I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because his team got put out early and he was slated for 2nd bracket game.
Sad part is, you have to realize this is a business and its about your kids exposure and progress. I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place. Colleges and pros dont care about your team, they arent trying to draft or scholarship your team, they are trying to acquire you.
Do I think a kid should pitch for two different teams in the same weekend? No. Do I think it matters what uniform you have on when you pitch that weekend? Not at all...
As far as position players going to help out another team in another tournament, I don't think its a big deal if the kids want to play. If the parent would have no problem with their kid playing 5 games with their own team, I don't think they should have a problem with them playing 3 with their own team and 2 more with another team.
Baseball is the only sport where you can start for the Mets on Tuesday and the Angels on Wednesday and be expected to perform. Get used to playing baseball whenever, wherever with whoever as long as its done safely I don't see a problem. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2017 : 08:43:18
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
Ive seen big programs including the one my son played for borrow players based on who was still alive in the tourney and who wasnt. Especially with PG, if a player hasn't played in a game yet he can go play wherever he wants. A lot of times you will see kids listed on multiple rosters, especially jupiter or 17u wwba championship.
I dont see much wrong with it, in that I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because his team got put out early and he was slated for 2nd bracket game.
Sad part is, you have to realize this is a business and its about your kids exposure and progress. I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place. Colleges and pros dont care about your team, they arent trying to draft or scholarship your team, they are trying to acquire you.
Do I think a kid should pitch for two different teams in the same weekend? No. Do I think it matters what uniform you have on when you pitch that weekend? Not at all...
As far as position players going to help out another team in another tournament, I don't think its a big deal if the kids want to play. If the parent would have no problem with their kid playing 5 games with their own team, I don't think they should have a problem with them playing 3 with their own team and 2 more with another team.
Baseball is the only sport where you can start for the Mets on Tuesday and the Angels on Wednesday and be expected to perform. Get used to playing baseball whenever, wherever with whoever as long as its done safely I don't see a problem.
Nastycurve, you make a good point about OLDER kids on the path to recruitment. Be a hired gun, go for it. But when places are doing this at 10u and 14u what's the point? If I have a 12u kid on the B team and my kid looses his starting spot because the A team SS is now available...ugh...that's tough. Or my B team pitcher is excited to pitch in PG but the A team ace is now available and my kid is out...that's just wrong.
If it's about recruitment I think Nastycurve makes a good point, it's about earning a job and earning a place. However, when it's about youth baseball (14u and under) I think it's poor sportsmanship that your team is not your team and you are replaceable. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2017 : 10:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
Ive seen big programs including the one my son played for borrow players based on who was still alive in the tourney and who wasnt. Especially with PG, if a player hasn't played in a game yet he can go play wherever he wants. A lot of times you will see kids listed on multiple rosters, especially jupiter or 17u wwba championship.
I dont see much wrong with it, in that I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because his team got put out early and he was slated for 2nd bracket game.
Sad part is, you have to realize this is a business and its about your kids exposure and progress. I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place. Colleges and pros dont care about your team, they arent trying to draft or scholarship your team, they are trying to acquire you.
Do I think a kid should pitch for two different teams in the same weekend? No. Do I think it matters what uniform you have on when you pitch that weekend? Not at all...
As far as position players going to help out another team in another tournament, I don't think its a big deal if the kids want to play. If the parent would have no problem with their kid playing 5 games with their own team, I don't think they should have a problem with them playing 3 with their own team and 2 more with another team.
Baseball is the only sport where you can start for the Mets on Tuesday and the Angels on Wednesday and be expected to perform. Get used to playing baseball whenever, wherever with whoever as long as its done safely I don't see a problem.
So much bothers me with the above post, not sure where to begin. First off no shocker at all that Perfect Game is where this kind of thing happens.
Now they have parents willing to change teams in the middle of the tournament " I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place", where do we draw the line? Deep down if your every thought does not start with "I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because" you know sometimes, kids get unlucky. Your little hero will have other opportunities to be seen. I know the days of one maybe two jobs, one wife, and one team are on the way out the door, it is what it is. There is something wrong with it, baseball is an old fashion, traditionalist's game. Changing the structure of what is right and wrong because it may suite your kids needs, that is generation Facebook in a nutshell. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2017 : 11:47:42
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepayne
quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
Ive seen big programs including the one my son played for borrow players based on who was still alive in the tourney and who wasnt. Especially with PG, if a player hasn't played in a game yet he can go play wherever he wants. A lot of times you will see kids listed on multiple rosters, especially jupiter or 17u wwba championship.
I dont see much wrong with it, in that I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because his team got put out early and he was slated for 2nd bracket game.
Sad part is, you have to realize this is a business and its about your kids exposure and progress. I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place. Colleges and pros dont care about your team, they arent trying to draft or scholarship your team, they are trying to acquire you.
Do I think a kid should pitch for two different teams in the same weekend? No. Do I think it matters what uniform you have on when you pitch that weekend? Not at all...
As far as position players going to help out another team in another tournament, I don't think its a big deal if the kids want to play. If the parent would have no problem with their kid playing 5 games with their own team, I don't think they should have a problem with them playing 3 with their own team and 2 more with another team.
Baseball is the only sport where you can start for the Mets on Tuesday and the Angels on Wednesday and be expected to perform. Get used to playing baseball whenever, wherever with whoever as long as its done safely I don't see a problem.
So much bothers me with the above post, not sure where to begin. First off no shocker at all that Perfect Game is where this kind of thing happens.
Now they have parents willing to change teams in the middle of the tournament " I've seen kids signed off of one or two games seen by a RC, so a lot of it is by being in the right time and right place", where do we draw the line? Deep down if your every thought does not start with "I wouldn't want my kid to not throw because" you know sometimes, kids get unlucky. Your little hero will have other opportunities to be seen. I know the days of one maybe two jobs, one wife, and one team are on the way out the door, it is what it is. There is something wrong with it, baseball is an old fashion, traditionalist's game. Changing the structure of what is right and wrong because it may suite your kids needs, that is generation Facebook in a nutshell.
Mike I think the point of the post was that for the older kids they are interviewing for jobs, a.k.a. trying to get recruited, or even drafted. That's a different game than youth baseball. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2017 : 16:01:48
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I think its bad baseball at any age. Go ahead and do whatever feels best for your kid, that is always a remedy for healthy well rounded young adults.
Say it out loud "kids changing teams in the middle of the tournament because that may get them noticed", it turns my stomach. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2017 : 12:44:50
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I really think this is a situational scenario. For younger kids, I disagree with a kid ditching his team mid tourney, or even for a whole tourney, to play up. I also detest the idea that any kid on a team would lose position time to a ringer. However, I see nothing wrong with a kid filling in for a missing kid, for example, IF his own team is not playing or if they are out, as long as no throwing rules are being violated.
As far as older kids are concerned, like it or not, if your son can have one more chance to get a look-see that he might not get otherwise, I think it's tough to turn that chance away if a junior or senior and a real contender. Again, situational. What if a talented player who is say, a junior, gets sandbagged by the coach at an important game (which we have all seen happen)? Then gets a key chance to do his thing with another team at an equally important game? Should he "take one for the team" and learn the lesson that life isn't fair, or go for it in this dog eat dog world and act in his own best interest to get recruited? Not saying either is right or wrong, just asking a question. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2017 : 10:31:11
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Picking up a player for a tournament ahead of time is fine and with week long tournaments it is almost a must. Joining a second team in a tournament you have been eliminated from does not seem like good baseball. Every weekend is like a new season, if you feel like the coach is not for you because your kid did not get the chance to pitch a certain game then move on. Make sure to tell your kid "do not get to close to any of these kids, if you are not starting the semis we are bouncing, again".
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2017 : 20:37:45
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| my question is how do tournaments who are so concerned with arms let teams play in two events the same weekend. This is quite common and will happen this weekend i guarantee |
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Are parents REALLY allowing this?
