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kbuck
33 Posts |
 Posted - 11/04/2009 : 14:54:35
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I would like your opinion on something. I am a tournament director with a new organization and I have noticed and heard of a few things that has me concerned about tournament baseball.
First off, let me say that I got into this "business" to help promote youth sports and to provide a great experience to youth baseball teams in the state of Georgia. I have two kids that play travel baseball and I enjoy being around the park and watching kids play ball. Don't get me wrong, I do this to make money as well but it is not the driving factor for why I do it. I do it because I enjoy it!
My question to you is when do you know this has gotten out of hand? Certain people with USSSA have been getting ugly with, fussing at, some teams that play in other organization's events. This is childish in my opinion. All organizations are going to have to compete with each other no matter what. That is fine and that is a part of running a business. That is actually good for the teams. But bad mouthing other organizations because they pose a "threat" is unacceptable. You as coaches and parents should not condone this behavior. We should all get along the best we can and be respectable and do our best to provide the better product and teams will want to play in our events instead of taking the threatening route.
I am sorry I had to bring this up but I just had to get it off my chest and wanted to see if anyone else has been esposed to the bad mouthing. I will continue to hold tournaments and try to do the best I can for the teams. Anything outside of that is beyond my control.
Good luck to all of you next spring and hope to see you on the field. |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 07:21:25
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The State U$$$A is just protecting his pocket book. If you read enough of the vent you will see that people already belive the kind of people that run U$$$A state, but, since they still feel a need to go to the Elite 32 in Florida U$$$A will have a toe hold.
I would not run a tournament that competes with their Super NIT (and the golden ticket to Florida) or the State Tournament (must play to cash the Golden ticket), but, otherwise, ignore them. Find some quality teams to come to your tournament and the sheep, errrrr, other teams will follow.
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lottapop
257 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 08:11:52
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| IMO....I appreciate all of the organizations who provide my son and other kids like him the opportunities to play competitive baseball. That being said, this past year USSSA in GA and AL started a downward spiral with a lot of teams. Hopefully someone is listening. :) |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 09:50:01
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| USSSA has steadily gone down hill in GA. I guess based on your remarks the slip in the #'s they are starting to get in their tournaments is finally hurting a little where it counts. In the wallet! |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:34:20
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The problem with USSSA is that they feel they have a stranglehold over the teams with the Elite 32 but if you ask me even this will not keep the teams coming if they don't change their way of doing things. The Georgia Director does not think he has to return phone calls, address problems or even to be at the tournaments for that matter. As far as I can tell this guy has the sweetest job in America. He does nothing and I assume he is being paid.
As soon as someone comes up with a alternative for the Elite 32 then USSSA will be out the door and Papa will have the broom to sweep out the trash. |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 12:00:33
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I like playing in tournaments but you have to ask yourself, what's my goal for playing in tournaments? My first year managing in travel I had ideas of high state rankings and moving my team up the food chain. After my FIRST tournament I realized that tournaments are money grabs. You are forced to play at least two games in conditions that you normally would not play in (too cold, too wet, bad fields, etc.) just to avoid the refund. While the pairings are generally related to affiliation rankings, game times are sometimes subject to “home cooking”. To get more teams registered to play the time between games get compressed and the fields aren’t lined and dragged. You pay gate fees to play at park fields with holes on the mound, gaps in the fence, non-working scoreboards and absentee Tournament Directors.
I played in one 14U USSSA tournament this past spring (Loganville, GA Legion Field – I highly recommend it for 14U and up) not because of the USSSA affiliation but because of the venue and cost. This summer/fall I selected tournaments solely based on venue and cost. Why do teams still care about points and rankings when you routinely don’t play the top teams in each classification?
IMHO: GGBL, NWBA and Lanier have the right answer; league play; if you win you can at least claim to be the top team in your league.
Play tournaments to get games. Play exotic tournaments (at the beach, Cooperstown, Disney, etc.) for the experience of being there. If you think you are better than the Northwest Cobb “Whatchamacallits” then schedule them for a DH or home and home series. If you play in and win a tournament just to claim to be the best you will be, but just against those teams that you beat; that weekend. By the way, there is nothing wrong with that.
Stop chasing points that don’t mean anything and plastic trophies that break in the car on the way home.
Signed
Bill Clark
(Jaded Travel Manager)
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silvercityjon
56 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 12:39:08
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| Great post billbclk!!!!! |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 13:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by billbclk
I like playing in tournaments but you have to ask yourself, what's my goal for playing in tournaments? My first year managing in travel I had ideas of high state rankings and moving my team up the food chain. After my FIRST tournament I realized that tournaments are money grabs. You are forced to play at least two games in conditions that you normally would not play in (too cold, too wet, bad fields, etc.) just to avoid the refund. While the pairings are generally related to affiliation rankings, game times are sometimes subject to “home cooking”. To get more teams registered to play the time between games get compressed and the fields aren’t lined and dragged. You pay gate fees to play at park fields with holes on the mound, gaps in the fence, non-working scoreboards and absentee Tournament Directors.
I played in one 14U USSSA tournament this past spring (Loganville, GA Legion Field – I highly recommend it for 14U and up) not because of the USSSA affiliation but because of the venue and cost. This summer/fall I selected tournaments solely based on venue and cost. Why do teams still care about points and rankings when you routinely don’t play the top teams in each classification?
IMHO: GGBL, NWBA and Lanier have the right answer; league play; if you win you can at least claim to be the top team in your league.
Play tournaments to get games. Play exotic tournaments (at the beach, Cooperstown, Disney, etc.) for the experience of being there. If you think you are better than the Northwest Cobb “Whatchamacallits” then schedule them for a DH or home and home series. If you play in and win a tournament just to claim to be the best you will be, but just against those teams that you beat; that weekend. By the way, there is nothing wrong with that.
Stop chasing points that don’t mean anything and plastic trophies that break in the car on the way home.
Signed
Bill Clark
(Jaded Travel Manager)
*golf clap* |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 13:04:05
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In a perfet world every baseball experience would be great. I can't speak for the state of Georgia but I know in Florida USSSA is the top tournament organization going. I don't think USSSA is getting a fair shake in your state. Are they allowed to host tournaments at ATPP. I think USSSA has the best ranking system, the best classification system and the best World Series event going. I think the great people of the state of Georgia should try getting the USSSA director for the State removed and a new director put in place. I would love for all of you to experience what the Bombers did in 2009. It was the chase for those points the chase for what someone else said that " golden ticket ", the setting of a goal and the since of accomplishment when we achieved it. I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way but you can pay to play in any tournament, not the case at Disney. Sure if all the spots are not filled some of the better teams that didn't qualify (and if they have competed in enough USSSA NIT's) may pay to play but overall it is a true earn to play WS.
I would be the first to vote Dennis Lemming USSSA Director for the State of Georgia and Bill Moser Assistante Director |
Edited by - 10 BB on 11/06/2009 14:01:26 |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 14:36:37
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I agree a lot with what has been stated about money grab's. I have taken 2 teams in the past 15yrs starting at a young age and tried to see how far up the ladder we could go I am glad i did that at that time. I also enjoy haveing an average team and seeking out nice venues with quality directors.
I have had one real good usssa tourney director and one good top gun director. All the others would do whatever it takes to get that one extra team entered to put money in pocket. Change the schedule every hour and leave it up to you to find out. Play in rain long enough to insure no refunds etc etc.
It is very seldom in GA that i have seen any director check birth certificates or insurance. You couldnt even enter a gate in most states i have played in without them doing that.
I also had good directors who did all they could to offer 4 games..if they say they cant it is because they dont want to lose any of that profit. I also have directors tell me they have teams pay a set gate fee not to be nice but that way they dont have to cut the local town or rec dept in on anything collected at the gate.
I also like round robin formats so you can win a game and if you have a nice lead use your bottom pitchers for an inning or two. I hate the idea of having to try to squash an oppenent just to keep the runs allowed down. The object should not always be to run rule your oppenent but to groom pitchers at the youth level.
The bottom line for me is cost of tourneys has gone up and time limits down, quality of fields down. I go more for the venue and the atmosphere now than i do the climb to the top. Anyone figure what the cost is per inning on an average weekend? Anyone ever get in all their innings without time running out? |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 15:40:47
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10 BB
Don’t get me wrong; there is nothing wrong with feeling the pride of winning national or even local tournaments or having that as one of your goals. Being crowned a winner is a most uplifting event. I am truly happy when we win and disappointed when we lose. But I am happier when I see my guys execute, communicate and show that they “get it”; whatever “it” may be at any particular time. I get excited watching my right fielder backing up potential throws to second base from left field, batters trying to hit behind base runners, etc.
It’s a tremendous achievement to win an NIT or be invited to play in World Series events and I don’t want to appear like I am diminishing a kids’ or teams’ accomplishment. But please guys lets also acknowledge those smaller often unseen victories when we see our boys - just getting better.
…. did you hear the trumpet playing “Glory Halleluiah” while I was on my soapbox. I started to tear up.
BTW. I would support any USSSA Director or any other affiliation director who takes into account that kids usually get excited about playing in tournaments and parents generally dread it and who takes the steps to ensure local Tournament Directors remember this and make it a special event and not just more games on the teams’ schedule.
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tfb
34 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 08:40:33
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| Why no response from USSSA? I would like to hear from both sides. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:20:18
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If you don't like tournaments, you can play in or host round robins or doubleheaders just about any weekend. You could play 50 non-tournament games easily and then go to the tournaments where the hosts aren't trying to make any money.
If you find one of those, let me know. |
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Whitlow
211 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 17:19:28
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| I think it may have to do more with the people running/working the tournaments than the affiliation with any organization. I know at one USSSA tournament my sons team played in at 9U we had to wait an hour to play because they didn't have enough umpires and when we played it at 10U I had to go looking for the tournament workers to get the next bracket game started and they ran out of hotdog and hamburger buns on the first day of play. I really don't like the dirt mounds mainly because they never maintain them between tournament games and usually have holes in them. At least that has been my experience. In all fairness I think it is probably tough running a tournament and finding enough good volunteers to help. But rather than complain about the bad ones, I'd rather commend the ones that do a good job like billbclk did for Loganville, GA Legion Field for 14U+. For 9U-11U we have always had good experiences with the tournament and tournament director at a small park called Dobbs Creek in Cumming GA. It is a small Park with only 3 fields and no lights, but they use nearby Parks fields when needed. They have done an exceptional job each tournament and I think it showed this fall because they attracted a lot of teams to their tournaments. |
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kbuck
33 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 22:00:41
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I don't mean to use this forum for advertising but I am going to. I would challenge all of you N GA teams to come out to Legion Fields in Conyers next spring and see what you think about HB Events and Nations Baseball. I hold events there and from what I am hearing from all of you that you would like to see at events, I do all of them. I take great pride in the events I hold for teams and I want coaches, parents and players to all be satisfied with the event I provide for them. Without the teams no of this is possible. A lot of the problems I hear people talk about with tournaments is exactly why I left USSSA.
Again, check out HB Events and Nations Baseball next spring. There are good people in place in Nations Baseball that put the kids first. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask Lou Presutti from Cooperstown Dreams Park. He is a huge Nations backer and is working with Nations Baseball on building a Nations only baseball park. |
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Rick Cosper
450 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 23:36:37
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This is a interesting topic and one that I would like to address as an ex-coach and now as the State Directors for Nations Baseball.
Back when my team 1st started playing tournaments we did so simply because we wanted better competition than we were getting in our park. I had already tried the weekend travel league route with my oldest son’s team. That didn’t work out because ½ the time the other team would cancel or not even show up.
We tried setting up Sunday double headers but had the same problems, plus it was a lot of work for myself and the parents on our team. I had to spend several hours trying to schedule games and our parents didn’t like dragging fields and basically putting the park back like it was before they got there. Playing tournaments was the easiest way for our team to get the competition we needed, while saving myself and parents a lot of work.
I also think tournament baseball is much more enjoyable for kids. Kids get excited when they get the chance to play somewhere different and play different teams. They also enjoy spending time with their teammates off the field. Hotels are a blast for most kids.
I don’t think travel baseball is for everyone and there is still a huge need for league play. The great thing about baseball is everyone can play this game no matter their size, age or talent level. Coaches should decide before the season, what’s in the best interest for their team and kids.
My team started hosting tournaments when they were 9u, just to raise money for our team. Tournament baseball has changed so much since then. There are so many more tournaments to choose from now and more tournament associations. Entry Fees have risen over the years, but the cost to host tournaments has risen even higher. Tournament Directors actually make less money now than they did five or six years ago. Five or six years ago you didn’t have to pay park rental, umpires were cheaper and you didn’t have to worry about things like sanctioning fees, insurance and supplying baseballs.
Georgia has some of the nicest parks in the country and I’m sure the park maintenance fees are phenomenal. Park rental fees helps pay for some of that expense. Some parks are now charging directors extra if lights are used during tournaments. This cost can ranges from $25.00 to $50.00 per hour. Most tournament director understands that if he doesn’t hire the best umpires he can, it will effect the quality of his event. So he pays top dollar for umpires. I’ve had tournaments where my umpire bill exceeded $15,000.00 and that’s a 30 or 40 team event.
I don’t think some coaches realize the time it takes and the expense to host a baseball tournament .
It takes several weeks and sometimes months to put a tournament together. Add to that the costs of park rental, umpires, trophies, baseballs, concession supplies, sanctioning fees, grounds crew workers, gate workers, etc. Why should a tournament director not expect to be paid for his hard work. Would you do your job if you didn’t get paid?
Tournament Directors worry about rain outs and or cancellations. Because so many teams are now waiting till the week of a tournament to enter, a lot of the money tournament directors spend comes out of their pocket before the tournament is even played. So I’m sure you could understand why a director would want to get his games in if at all possible. As long as the field is safe.
As far as points, world series, etc. These may or may not be the main reasons teams play in a particular tournament. World Series are not as big of a factor as you would think. I did some research before I took the State Directors job with Nations last year and found that less than 8% of the teams that played tournament baseball in Ga. actually played in a world series in 2008. This percentage is close to the same nation wide.
Someone mentioned Round Robin formats. I agree, I use to love playing Round Robin tournaments. Now most teams want to play in the BIG tournaments with the most teams. I guess if you win a tournament with 24 teams, it means more. However, if enough coaches what to play round robin tournaments, let me know and we’ll be glad to set them up. This is a great and fun format.
If your getting chewed out for playing with multiple tournament association, as mentioned in the 1st post,I would think you would need to look elsewhere. That tactic may work in Alabama and South Carolina but I doubt it will work in Georgia. There’s too many other options to play tournament baseball and with good tournament directors.
Nations Baseball and all the other tournament associations provide a service that is needed and very much wanted. It’s up to each team and coach to choose which tournament director and or association provides his team what they need, which ones he can trust and which ones does the best job.
No one is perfect but hard work, communication, honesty and respect for our teams and coaches is what will separate Nations Baseball and our tournament directors from some of the others. |
Edited by - Rick Cosper on 11/09/2009 09:09:00 |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 09:19:35
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tfb: Your simple question answers the whole problem with USSSA in the state of Georgia. This is now and has always been my problem with USSSA in the State of Georgia. If all holds true you will not hear any response from the USSSA State Director as we have not heard from him except to collect the gate fees. To be successful in anything that you undertake the first and one of the most important piece of the puzzle is communication. Trouble with Triple Crown, Get it on here and Tony will attempt to answer. It might not be what you want to here but he tries. Problem with USTBA gate fees, post it here and you will get a response. I don't even know for sure that Georgia has a USSSA Director in that I have never seen nor heard a word from him. Must be too busy counting the gate fees and entry fees to answer a few simple questions.
Please understand that this is the only problem that Papa has with USSSA. They seem to run a good tournament with decent venues except the Super NIT where the fields and traffic suck. They really need to work on communication. |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:48:57
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| I guess it also depends on whos runninh the show also..The Usssa tournamentss that are up around Dalton and Rome are run by someone differnet..I usually can conatct him by e-mail with any questions I have..We need a Baseball GUY to run USSSA in GA not some Money Man... |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 13:18:49
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| this in not a knock on nations in this area but i can say filling out their rosters on line and trying to understand them is a nightmare. keep it simple |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 13:25:23
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| Rick Cosper, Do tournaments offer a "real" discount if teams enter and pay early? That would probably help. Also how much money was made on the tournament that you had to spend $15,000.00 on umpires. Looking at the numbers seems like there isn't that much money to be made? |
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madimo11
33 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 15:14:11
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My 14 yr old East Cobb team finished in 5th place last year at the ELite 32 World Series. We chased this because the parents wanted to.
I can tell you that USSSA does not care about teams, kids, schedules or points, money is the evil behind them. I was so disappointed for our boys last summer and how we were treated, cannot use this area to hit, these cages are off limits, cannot throw here, here is our sponsor fields, it was crap, we spent alot of money in these tournments for what to get the label top TEN team in the USA.
I was raised in the ECB family, my brother played there, I played at Clemson for 3 yrs and played in the Bigs for three yrs, and never have been so mad or upset about how bad all the tournaments have been run. It is a joke.
Run a tournament with an updated poll play schedule, scores and times, fields. Have a communications center at each ball park for coaches and parents, give out directions, and put teams in pools were it is fair that a AAA team does not get crushed by an elite team right out of the gate, this is not baseball.
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Rick Cosper
450 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 17:14:25
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Whits23 - I promise if you need any help adding rosters or anything else all you need to do is call me. My phone stays on and I'm more than willing to help. I had one coach call a couple of months ago and I added his entire roster in less than 10 minutes while on the phone with him. A State Director is suppose to be there to help in any way he can and this one will. My phone number is 678-725-4530
HITANDRUN - Some Directors do offer discounts to teams that register early and these should be "real" discounts if that's want they're advertising. This helps a tournament director out just as much as it helps a team. It allows him to start a list of teams playing and it gives him some up front money to help pay his expenses. Some tournament directors offer discounts if you pay upfront for several events. The big problem with this is if a tournament or two gets rained out. This happened in North Ga. last year and from what I've heard, several teams had a very hard time getting refunds. Some of the Nations Directors offer different types of incentives but do so for teams that play more than one or two of their tournaments. They may give a discount on the 3rd or 4th tournament a team plays. I know Hard Core and Triple Play has this type program in place.
I can't remember how much money was made at the tournament I spent $15,000.00 on umpires but it was 4 years ago at the Elite Travel Classic in Huntsville . That was the most I had ever paid up until then.
I also co-host the Battle In the South in TN. Two years ago we had seventy 14u teams and paid a little over $19,000.00 for umpires. Last spring Shannon Ivey and myself hosted the Elite Travel Classic in Texas, we paid something like $15,000.00 just for park rental. Needless to say after we paid the park rental, umpires, airfare to and from Texas, hotel and car rental, we didn’t make much, but we really enjoyed the trip and enjoyed seeing some great baseball.
Hopefully these post will help some coaches better understand the cost to host a tournament. Tournament directors do make some money, as they should but not as much as you would think. Most do this because they love the game of baseball, love being at the park and enjoy seeing the kids play.
Just remember Georgia has some of the nicest parks in the country and the park rental fees being charge are very much justifiable. It cost thousands of dollars each year to keep this parks in the condition they are in. Which in turn provides your teams with a some nicest places in the country to play baseball. |
Edited by - Rick Cosper on 11/09/2009 20:02:27 |
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bbfan31
14 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 18:57:40
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| problem with USSSA is they don't check rosters. Tm Ga played this weekend with a Bandits pitcher from a 11u Major team and wasn't on their roster. I thought with USSSA you had to have a current online roster, and a major player could not play on a AAA team. |
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bball2008
100 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 19:47:56
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It will be interesting to see which of these competing events that teams choose to play in:
USTBA Feb. Frost & Triple Crown Spring Frost- both the weekend of 2/26
USTBA State Champ. & Triple Crown State Champ.- both the weekend of 6/4
I'm sure there are several other instances but these were the first to jump out. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 20:37:41
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| bball2008: I bet you are right. This will be a tough choice and I am sure some of the factors on what teams choose will be cost of the tournament and the venue. If all else was equal and East Cobb fields and ATPP were available I would go for the East Cobb Venue. You can feel baseball in the air at East Cobb and if all else was equal this would be my choice. USTBA and Triple Crown both do it the right way. Both have problems but overall they both run a great tournament. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 08:23:08
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Forsyth Slugfest is March 5,6,7 so back to back weekends for most.
quote:
Originally posted by bball2008
It will be interesting to see which of these competing events that teams choose to play in:
USTBA Feb. Frost & Triple Crown Spring Frost- both the weekend of 2/26
USTBA State Champ. & Triple Crown State Champ.- both the weekend of 6/4
I'm sure there are several other instances but these were the first to jump out.
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Tournament Wars?
