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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 08/02/2016 : 00:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
I think all this paid coach vs non paid coach stuff is funny. Along with the guy here who post about training 24/7. The bottom line is baseball is not like the other 2 major sports. A guy with some height and athleticism can learn to shoot a basketball. A guy with some size and athleticism can learn to be a good football player. Baseball doesn't work that way. God gives a person only so much talent that can be maximized in baseball. Very few are born with the ceiling limits to even sniff a shot at becoming a professional player. By professional I mean any form of getting paid to play it. It don't matter how good of a coach you have if you are physically limited. Being from the Caribbean, America, Japan or Timbuktu doesn't mean much. Genetically, there may be advantages from being from one place or the other, but outside of that, not much. Certain people are born with a strong arm. Certain people are born with the ability to have good bat speed. Obviously training can MAXIMIZE whatever amount they have. Everyone has a ceiling regardless of what guru coaches them. I'm not saying you shouldn't seek out the best coaching you can find. Baseball, especially at the higher levels, is far more mental than it is physical. I don't care how good of a swing you have, if you're mentally weak, then you're screwed anyway. You get to a point where everyone around you can play, eventually it's going to come down to how you can handle it. A lot of the issue I see with "paid professional coaches" is they are scared to COACH the kids. I don't mean teach them how to swing and throw. I mean put them in pressure situations, put pressure on them in practice. Work on the mental side of it. It's a pressure game and the mentally weak need to go play soccer or some other sport because they will never make it in baseball. So regardless if you spend 3k or $500 the kids should be challenged and taught the game of baseball starting from the neck up. There is time for rest later as they get older. Talent will always show up eventually.
TRB, I totally agree with you. I have played with many guys who I thought were better than me skill wise, but I feed off pressure and kept playing my game while they got soggy like boiled peanuts. The skills will level off and it will all become mental. It's like showing fear in the box after a pitcher throws a 90mph heater at your head. It will rattle 95% of most players and they would not even want to swing. |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/02/2016 09:15:11 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 00:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
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Originally posted by aj94
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Apples to Oranges. Any kid from DR who is a top prospect is shipped to a baseball academy in lieu of middle/high school. They play baseball all day, every day. They live in poverty, so really, nothing to lose. The motivators for a kid in the DR to work hard to develop their skills, and the means and approach to do so are nothing like anything here in the USA. If you haven't been fortunate enough to have seen the documentary Ballplayer: Pelotero, I highly recommend you watch it. Gives true insight to to DR baseball.
http://www.ballplayerpelotero.com/
Is that right? I know people personally from the Caribbean that got drafted into the majors and they didn't pay a single dime to play on a team with a "paid coach", play with an "Academy", or in some cases played travel ball period.
There is no apple to no orange, both are kids that can put in the work to get good whether they pay $2,000 or do it with someone who is willing to do it for free. Nothing wrong with trying to make a profit but just say that don't make it seem like you have to pay thousands of dollars to get good at baseball because you don't.
The only players from the Caribbean that get drafted are from PR (US Territory). Anywhere else they are all free agents since they are considered international players and most likely playing professional in their own country. No draft for international players.
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/49189442/major-league-baseball-decides-against-holding-international-draft/ |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/02/2016 09:15:31 |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 07:48:02
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| Paid coaching really is an individual choice, and definitely not necessary, esp. at younger ages. However there are definitely some advantages. Keeping pushy parents off the field and out of the lineup is a huge advantage. It gives the boys an opportunity to compete with eachother without second guessing the coach's motives. Also proper mechanics. Bad habits are hard to break. Yes, there are plenty of parent coaches with vast knowledge, however there are equal numbers, or more, of well meaning dads teaching the mechanics all wrong. It's your job to figure out who knows what, and who's blowing hot air. But it's also your job to figure out the same about paid coaches. Not all of them are able to effectively transfer that knowledge to the players. It's important to know who works well with the age group to which they are assigned. How to find out? Ask the parents. And just because they aren't screaming and yelling from the sidelines at the poor kid shaking on the mound or at the plate or at practice doesn't mean they aren't putting pressure on them. Unless you know the dynamics of the team it's impossible to know the situation going on between the coach and player. But yes, ultimately natural talent is what it is and no amount of money will create that on a player who doesn't have it. We've been lucky enough to have only "good" dads coaching, but even then the total absence of politics with pros makes for a whole new dynamic and a great experience for the boys. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 08/02/2016 09:15:55 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 09:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
Check out RIPOFF REPORT prior to committing with a team. I wish I had done that last year, would have saved myself a lot of money and my son a lot of frustration and he would have had his summer of baseball he was looking forward to.
Sometimes this will work, sometimes there are just lies posted on there to damage people/reputations. Check out this link from consumer affairs:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/ripoffreport.html
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Bflanders
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 09:59:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Paid coaching really is an individual choice, and definitely not necessary, esp. at younger ages. However there are definitely some advantages. Keeping pushy parents off the field and out of the lineup is a huge advantage. It gives the boys an opportunity to compete with eachother without second guessing the coach's motives. Also proper mechanics. Bad habits are hard to break. Yes, there are plenty of parent coaches with vast knowledge, however there are equal numbers, or more, of well meaning dads teaching the mechanics all wrong. It's your job to figure out who knows what, and who's blowing hot air. But it's also your job to figure out the same about paid coaches. Not all of them are able to effectively transfer that knowledge to the players. It's important to know who works well with the age group to which they are assigned. How to find out? Ask the parents. And just because they aren't screaming and yelling from the sidelines at the poor kid shaking on the mound or at the plate or at practice doesn't mean they aren't putting pressure on them. Unless you know the dynamics of the team it's impossible to know the situation going on between the coach and player. But yes, ultimately natural talent is what it is and no amount of money will create that on a player who doesn't have it. We've been lucky enough to have only "good" dads coaching, but even then the total absence of politics with pros makes for a whole new dynamic and a great experience for the boys.
Cannot agree with that more. We can discuss the pros and cons of Daddy Ball all day long, but overall, after having been in and around Majors level baseball since 9U, I haven't seen a Daddy coached team that didn't employ the usual Daddy Ball BS that also created the politics and drama that goes with it. Our first paid coach season at 12U was SO dramatically different on every level, that you will never convince me that Dad coaches are a positive thing for the chemistry and development of any team, be it A thru Major level.
But then there is the rub: how many teams would be out there right now without those Daddy Ballers running practices and entering tournaments? And if they weren't out there, would that mean that the current travel ball dilution would dry up? |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 10:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
Check out RIPOFF REPORT prior to committing with a team. I wish I had done that last year, would have saved myself a lot of money and my son a lot of frustration and he would have had his summer of baseball he was looking forward to.
Wow, I did not know they had a travel baseball section, I am gong to look right now.
But thanks for confirming my point, paying a lot of money does not mean it's a better situation than the team with the low cost. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 10:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Paid coaching really is an individual choice, and definitely not necessary, esp. at younger ages. However there are definitely some advantages. Keeping pushy parents off the field and out of the lineup is a huge advantage. It gives the boys an opportunity to compete with eachother without second guessing the coach's motives. Also proper mechanics. Bad habits are hard to break. Yes, there are plenty of parent coaches with vast knowledge, however there are equal numbers, or more, of well meaning dads teaching the mechanics all wrong. It's your job to figure out who knows what, and who's blowing hot air. But it's also your job to figure out the same about paid coaches. Not all of them are able to effectively transfer that knowledge to the players. It's important to know who works well with the age group to which they are assigned. How to find out? Ask the parents. And just because they aren't screaming and yelling from the sidelines at the poor kid shaking on the mound or at the plate or at practice doesn't mean they aren't putting pressure on them. Unless you know the dynamics of the team it's impossible to know the situation going on between the coach and player. But yes, ultimately natural talent is what it is and no amount of money will create that on a player who doesn't have it. We've been lucky enough to have only "good" dads coaching, but even then the total absence of politics with pros makes for a whole new dynamic and a great experience for the boys.
Good post, I agree. This is all I was saying, paying $2,000 for a team does not mean it will be the best experience. In football and basketball there is no $2,000 fee for youth players and there are plenty of coaches that just are willing to volunteer their time and not try get a payday out of it or exclude certain kids because their parents cant afford to pay the fee.
This travel baseball is now all about people trying to make a profit instead of trying to teach the game. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 10:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sebaseball
aj94 is right that it can be done, but it sounds like this is a model that is becoming more rare. We're highly competitive at the Major level and we got it done for $10K at 13U. That included a new Richardson hat, two button down (sublimated) jerseys, new helmets (bought previous ones at 11U), eight tournaments, Gatorade and bench snacks (pretzels, breakfast bars, oranges) provided in dugout, and a little bit of paid coaching as well. Myself & the Asst. coach are dads who aren't paid & we don't have to pay for a practice field. Our total team cost for the spring has run between $8-$10K since 10U. We usually run about $2K for the fall (same hat & unis from the spring) and 4-5 tourneys.
We have some academies down here, but the vast majority of teams are still independent. With as many players & academies as there are in the metro area coupled with limited field resources, I can see where having a low budget, high competitive, independent team would be very difficult to find and/or develop. I think this is an advantage to South GA; along with no bumper to bumper traffic for as far as the eye can see, four lanes wide...
Thank you sir, that's all I said, that it CAN be done because I have personally seen it done. And the teams I saw do it beat the "Academy" teams regularly with just us "dad" coaches being involved volunteering our time for FREE and not daddy balling either.
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 12:47:20
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| I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 13:47:28
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| Just one more point in my lengthy pro vs. non pro narrative...for you dad coaches above who have the low budgets, no field fees and no pros BUT are way out of the metro area...yes you guys DO play great ball, coach well and field teams that regularly crush our metro area teams. No doubt you guys attract the best players with perhaps fewer options and kids. Supply and demand. But for those of us stuck in the metro area where daddy ball is rampant, dilution is a real problem for good players and there is a huge supply of kids who can pay to play, the totally pro teams do often attract the best players for those exact reasons. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 14:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
This is about tryouts for younger kids, 12u and under. My point was about 9u and 10u teams charging $2,000 and up for 9 and 10 year old baseball, there is no justification for it and the high cost is not adding up to wins in 90% of the cases. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 14:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
This is about tryouts for younger kids, 12u and under. My point was about 9u and 10u teams charging $2,000 and up for 9 and 10 year old baseball, there is no justification for it and the high cost is not adding up to wins in 90% of the cases.
Maybe we can all agree on saying that a 2K budget is not necessarily a red flag (because oh yeah THAT was the topic), depending on what your kid is getting, where he will be playing, how often he will be playing, and where you live. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 15:01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
It's hard for dads to coach high school age travel teams because of the weeklong summer tournaments. I know that my employer wasn't going to let me miss most of June and July.
If I could have swung it, probably would have coached my son's team through high school because I loved working with the group of boys that we had not because I wanted to create an advantage for my son. In fact, the group of dads that I coached with routinely beat the large academies and their paid coaches. Oh and last year at 13U with a couple of sponsorships, each players cost was around $600. So, it can be done by dads who have morals and are interested in doing what's right versus just trying to promote their kid.
Lastly, there are dads out there who played college and pro ball who don't coach at academies. Just saying... |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 15:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Just one more point in my lengthy pro vs. non pro narrative...for you dad coaches above who have the low budgets, no field fees and no pros BUT are way out of the metro area...yes you guys DO play great ball, coach well and field teams that regularly crush our metro area teams. No doubt you guys attract the best players with perhaps fewer options and kids. Supply and demand. But for those of us stuck in the metro area where daddy ball is rampant, dilution is a real problem for good players and there is a huge supply of kids who can pay to play, the totally pro teams do often attract the best players for those exact reasons.
++
Rampant? More like a plague in the metro area. Just have to feel bad for the kids who can really play and working hard getting caught up in it. |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/02/2016 16:46:40 |
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Bflanders
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 15:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
This is about tryouts for younger kids, 12u and under. My point was about 9u and 10u teams charging $2,000 and up for 9 and 10 year old baseball, there is no justification for it and the high cost is not adding up to wins in 90% of the cases.
The kids that are on those 16 / 17 / 18 year old teams are the same kids who worked their tails off to stay in the top organizations that are NOT coached by Dad's since they were 12U. I knowthis as fact because I have witnessed it here. Another interesting thing, concerning wins, the majority those 12U to 14U top teams that have paid coaches aren't interested in wins, they are interested in putting kids under pressure to perform in clutch situations, even when it is apparent that it is going to cost you a win. I have also witnessed this. That is true development, and it is worth every penny, IMHO. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 20:58:43
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Yes check multiple sources, but had I seen what was there about the program we went with, I would have asked a whole lot more questions and done a lot more research prior to giving our hard earned money to a fraudulent program.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
Check out RIPOFF REPORT prior to committing with a team. I wish I had done that last year, would have saved myself a lot of money and my son a lot of frustration and he would have had his summer of baseball he was looking forward to.
Sometimes this will work, sometimes there are just lies posted on there to damage people/reputations. Check out this link from consumer affairs:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/ripoffreport.html
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 23:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
It's hard for dads to coach high school age travel teams because of the weeklong summer tournaments. I know that my employer wasn't going to let me miss most of June and July.
If I could have swung it, probably would have coached my son's team through high school because I loved working with the group of boys that we had not because I wanted to create an advantage for my son. In fact, the group of dads that I coached with routinely beat the large academies and their paid coaches. Oh and last year at 13U with a couple of sponsorships, each players cost was around $600. So, it can be done by dads who have morals and are interested in doing what's right versus just trying to promote their kid.
Lastly, there are dads out there who played college and pro ball who don't coach at academies. Just saying...
Well said!! I wish there were more Dad's out there like yourself. Who have fun with it, want the boys to grow, and don't do it to create an advantage for their son. Seriously, you should travel to local parks and share your wealth of knowledge!!! And, congratulations on Josh's PG selection. Well deserved!!! We don't know you outside this board, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching your son and his team play. They do it the right way. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 08:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Bflanders
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
This is about tryouts for younger kids, 12u and under. My point was about 9u and 10u teams charging $2,000 and up for 9 and 10 year old baseball, there is no justification for it and the high cost is not adding up to wins in 90% of the cases.
The kids that are on those 16 / 17 / 18 year old teams are the same kids who worked their tails off to stay in the top organizations that are NOT coached by Dad's since they were 12U. I knowthis as fact because I have witnessed it here. Another interesting thing, concerning wins, the majority those 12U to 14U top teams that have paid coaches aren't interested in wins, they are interested in putting kids under pressure to perform in clutch situations, even when it is apparent that it is going to cost you a win. I have also witnessed this. That is true development, and it is worth every penny, IMHO.
My older son was on a low cost "dad coached" team at 18u and they used to beat those $3,000 plus "academy" teams on the regular. And one of the players from the team was a top 10 range MLB draft pick.
No need to make false general statements to justify the money grab by making false statements.
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 10:43:23
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| Back to the original point, it's an individual choice based on what's available in your area, what works best for your child and up to you as a parent to figure out who's who and where your child will have the most success. Clearly there are good and bad out there in both dads and pros alike. But it is NOT a "red flag" if a team is charging 2K plus in older age groups with a proven track record of success. For 8-11 maybe but 12 and up, back to individual choice. There are definitely teams that justify the fee but alternative excellent choices for those who aren't interested in the academy or pro route. Does that sum it up? |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 10:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by lowandoutside
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
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Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I agree there are some situations being run for profit, and you are not necessarily getting what you pay for just by having a pro. That's where doing your homework comes into play. However, just for us, can't speak for others, the move to paid was a huge breath of fresh air. From practices to games, it was a whole new world. The boys all LOVE it. And at least for our coaches, they are young guys and the money they make is just enough to give them some money to offset their college expenses (as others have pointed out those D1 scholarships still leave alot of debt on the plate, and playing for the minors is anything but a financial windfall), while still getting to be involved in the sport they love. So profit doesn't really come into play. Again, it has to be the right fit, and I agree it stinks that some great players might be left out of baseball by pure virtue of not being able to pay. This is not the case with basketball or football. No doubt baseball has become a big money machine and parents need to be realistic about feeding the money machine after it becomes clear that their child's skill level is just never going to be there. But if it's within the budget and the right coach is out there it can be a great experience. Just curious, as we are not quite there yet, how many of the top 16/17/18 year old majors teams in the metro area are still coached by dads? Everyone I know in this age group that have kids likely to play college are on professionally coached teams, but I am curious if my view is skewed by simply not knowing?
It's hard for dads to coach high school age travel teams because of the weeklong summer tournaments. I know that my employer wasn't going to let me miss most of June and July.
If I could have swung it, probably would have coached my son's team through high school because I loved working with the group of boys that we had not because I wanted to create an advantage for my son. In fact, the group of dads that I coached with routinely beat the large academies and their paid coaches. Oh and last year at 13U with a couple of sponsorships, each players cost was around $600. So, it can be done by dads who have morals and are interested in doing what's right versus just trying to promote their kid.
Lastly, there are dads out there who played college and pro ball who don't coach at academies. Just saying...
Well said!! I wish there were more Dad's out there like yourself. Who have fun with it, want the boys to grow, and don't do it to create an advantage for their son. Seriously, you should travel to local parks and share your wealth of knowledge!!! And, congratulations on Josh's PG selection. Well deserved!!! We don't know you outside this board, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching your son and his team play. They do it the right way.
Thanks for the kind words! He and our entire family are extremely appreciative and honored for the invitation. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 11:01:40
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<<<The kids that are on those 16 / 17 / 18 year old teams are the same kids who worked their tails off to stay in the top organizations that are NOT coached by Dad's since they were 12U. I knowthis as fact because I have witnessed it here. Another interesting thing, concerning wins, the majority those 12U to 14U top teams that have paid coaches aren't interested in wins, they are interested in putting kids under pressure to perform in clutch situations, even when it is apparent that it is going to cost you a win. I have also witnessed this. That is true development, and it is worth every penny, IMHO.>
Lets go deeper into this statement:
The kids that are on the academy topA 16 / 17 / 18 year old teams are a very few select kids who worked their tails off to stay in the top organizations since 12U, otherwise they have been shuffled to the B,C,D,E, or F academy team. Those few select kids who worked their tails off are now on what is best described as a super regional academy team joined by the best athletes and arms the academy can find or personally recruit. The money/time/effort you paid as a hard working 12 to 14u player has zero bearing at 16/17/18 top A team selection time.
The majority of those 12U to 14U top teams that have paid coaches aren't interested in wins. Exactly. Shift the focus to development. You can't win consistently when your costs LIMIT the pool of available talent. Talent wins, but costs LIMIT your roster to only those who can pay plus maybe a few select players who have such talent that their costs are reduced or otherwise offset. (Hint: go re-read the first paragraph!) You can focus on development all you want, but if your costs exceed the level the talent can or will pay, you are not going to win. To change the measurement of success, you fall back on development and dreams/promises of future wins to come after more ($$$$) development.
Meanwhile, you've been sold a dream, you quite possibly are out multiple thousands of dollars per year. Fast forward to age 16/17/18 and you are "all in" financially while playing on the C team from the academy.
Meanwhile the select few (discussed at the beginning here) and the recruited regional talent on the A team are playing at low cost (or even NO COST). All done on the profit you provided the academy all these years and continue to do so thru the B,C,D,E,F teams at these older ages.
What does the academy get out of this setup? The A team is marketing/advertising and helps pave the way to sell dreams to the lesser player or bring in new players for the lesser teams. Especially at the younger more profitable ages. |
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3sondad
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 11:56:48
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Back to Red-flags ... Here are my biggest red flags:
ONE: If a 14U, 15U ,16U and 18U team from a Big organization tells you they have the blessings from "god" to be the second team out of the facility and their team will get special treatment on field time and indoor workouts. But the talent you see at tryouts or workouts for that team does not match what you are being told. That is NOT how that "big" organization has ever ran. One year we went to three "private" tryouts and all three said the same thing about being the number 2 team (or even the "#2 organization within the organization", because they had teams at multiple age groups).
TWO: "Coaches" that say they got "johnny, mikey, pete", etc drafted or DI scholarships (Basically implying that if it were not for ME the kid would not be playing ball where he js paying). If a coach has the gall to tell you "He got the kid drafted or a scholarship" should be a warning in itself. If you are lucky like I was and happen to know the kids they are talking about, you will realize how full of B$ these guys are. I was lucky in the fact I had an older boy play ball with a lot of the kids mentioned.
Good luck to those still looking for teams. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 13:22:19
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"johnny, mikey, pete" drafted and committed to D1, etc.
I assume All of the 14 academies/coaches/teams they subbed or guest played with from 15U to 17U claim to be the reason "johnny, mikey, pete" all got that scholarship. Bonus points for listing that player as recruited/drafted on their website front page.
Its deep out there, wade thru it carefully. |
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Cajunjeep
31 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 14:49:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
Yes check multiple sources, but had I seen what was there about the program we went with, I would have asked a whole lot more questions and done a lot more research prior to giving our hard earned money to a fraudulent program.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
Check out RIPOFF REPORT prior to committing with a team. I wish I had done that last year, would have saved myself a lot of money and my son a lot of frustration and he would have had his summer of baseball he was looking forward to.
Sometimes this will work, sometimes there are just lies posted on there to damage people/reputations. Check out this link from consumer affairs:
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/ripoffreport.html
There are several that have posted on here about bad experiences. Why not name the academy/team so everyone else can be made aware?
Also, not all "dad" coached teams are created equal. There are many of them that have "dads" coaching that have more playing experience and more coaching experience than some of the coaches at the academies or "pro" coached teams.
Also playing experience does not necessarily translate into coaching ability or experience.
Some red flags for us were:
1) a large part of the team not returning,
2) parents of the current team - watch how they interact(or not) with the coach and players.
3) No real plan at the tryout. coaches just winging it.
4) Coaches that dont want to discuss costs.
5 Coaches that talk about how much they won the previous season, and not how much better the players became.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2016 : 15:16:00
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There is some data to support the idea that big academies with multiple teams might just string you along in the younger ages...I hate to pick on ECB again but it has the most available data online. The facts are ECB has:
13u: 6 teams
14u: 7 teams
15u: 8 teams
16u: 11 teams (The year of, OMG my kid hasn't gotten a full scholarship offer I MUST get him to ECB now before it's too late)
17u: 5 teams (The year of, what do you mean there isn't a place at ECB for my son he's been here since 9u!)
It looks like a clear pattern to me.
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Tryout Red Flags
