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aj94
182 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2016 : 07:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
One red flag that a parent told me about was a Park associated team charging 2k. Sounds like they are having other parents foot the bill for the coaches kids.
2K doesn't seem out of the norm to me.
Assuming 12 kids per team, charges are:
-Uniforms Fall = $100
-Tourney fees for Fall (2-4 tourneys) = $200
-Practice place for Fall = $200
-Winter Fees for batting practice = $100
-Spring Fees for park practice place = $200
-Spring Uniforms/bag/helmet = $200
-Spring tourneys = 15 at $500 a pop so each kid pays $625 (add more if you want PG
-Destination tourney = $200 per kid (at least)
-New Ball budget = $50
You haven't paid a coach or rainout practice facility and we are looking at $1875...why would 2K be unreasonable? Unless you plan on only playing in local 5 team tourneys.
USSSA tourneys. So it is a local 5 team tourney.
I just looked up 10u, because I know that is your age group punishers, here is what I found:
1. The NIT's averaged around 20 teams, although a few only had 4, the cost was $395-$473.
2. The average teams in a USSSA 10u tourney is about 7...some only had 3. Cost was $395
3. The state level two tourneys averaged 5 teams and South state championship had 9, cost was $450
So, okay, for 10u, if you plan on playing mostly USSSA the cost of the tourneys is $400 instead of $500 which if you play 15 of them like my previous budget gets you to $500 per kid instead of $625.
AJ94, 18u typically play what 8 weeks, maybe? 10u typically play tourneys from end of February until July 4th. 12-15 tourneys is typical. Still not seeing how 2K is all that unreasonable. The tourney fees are set, the practice field prices are set, the cost of baseballs is set....where can you cut costs? There are cheaper AA level tourneys or fundraiser tourneys but if you plan on playing TC, PG, USSSA, Grand Slam...yup, 2K sounds about right.
Cocoa there is not justification for $2,000 plus (Had a guy tell me one time on the first discussion we had that his 9u was $2,800 looked them up that season and they were getting blown out in every AA tournament) for any age of baseball under MAYBE HS age.
Latin Americans are sending the most players to the Major Leagues and they are not paying any large sum of money to play travel ball or even play it all period. There are teams out there that just charge an actual reasonable cost instead of treating it like a for profit business.
Paying an outrageous amount of money for your son to play travel ball won't make him a better player. The same way these daddy ball and friend ball coaches son's seem to generally not be above average players either. |
Edited by - aj94 on 07/28/2016 09:05:34 |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2016 : 12:34:52
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Just for the sake of argument, here's my 13U team budget based on the quotes and prices I have received:
Park fees $250.00 3 field slots/week
Uniform $260.00 2 hats, jerseys, belts, pants, socks/stirrups
Helmet $ 35.00
Bat bag $ 55.00
Catcher's gear $ 27.27
Practice gear $ 50.00 1 hat, 2 uniforms
Tournaments $613.64 15 @ $450
Indoor facility $116.36 16 uses
Total per player (11): $1,407.27
Now, granted this is less than the $2000/player total that has been thrown around but I have not included training ($125/hour for team instruction), a destination tournament (Ripken is $700/player), or the paid coach ($1000/kid on the team). Depending on what the team is offering, as CaCo said, $2000 is not a real stretch. On the other hand, my totals don't include any sponsorships or fundraising and there's always ways to cut costs if you look hard enough and there are plenty of destination tournaments not named Ripken.
Rather than painting with that super broad brush, I will say this. These boards are here to educate folks and the best advice is to ask where the money is going. Then, follow the old adage, "Trust. But verify." Last year in our Cooperstown year, my parents paid a little less than $250 out of pocket for our yearly team fees. I know some who paid $3600. Obviously I could have spent more and the other team might could have spent less. Regardless though, if you stroke a $500 or $3000 check to the West Elite Foosball Academy without asking questions, that's on you - not the coach, park, academy or organization.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2016 : 12:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
One red flag that a parent told me about was a Park associated team charging 2k. Sounds like they are having other parents foot the bill for the coaches kids.
2K doesn't seem out of the norm to me.
Assuming 12 kids per team, charges are:
-Uniforms Fall = $100
-Tourney fees for Fall (2-4 tourneys) = $200
-Practice place for Fall = $200
-Winter Fees for batting practice = $100
-Spring Fees for park practice place = $200
-Spring Uniforms/bag/helmet = $200
-Spring tourneys = 15 at $500 a pop so each kid pays $625 (add more if you want PG
-Destination tourney = $200 per kid (at least)
-New Ball budget = $50
You haven't paid a coach or rainout practice facility and we are looking at $1875...why would 2K be unreasonable? Unless you plan on only playing in local 5 team tourneys.
USSSA tourneys. So it is a local 5 team tourney.
I just looked up 10u, because I know that is your age group punishers, here is what I found:
1. The NIT's averaged around 20 teams, although a few only had 4, the cost was $395-$473.
2. The average teams in a USSSA 10u tourney is about 7...some only had 3. Cost was $395
3. The state level two tourneys averaged 5 teams and South state championship had 9, cost was $450
So, okay, for 10u, if you plan on playing mostly USSSA the cost of the tourneys is $400 instead of $500 which if you play 15 of them like my previous budget gets you to $500 per kid instead of $625.
AJ94, 18u typically play what 8 weeks, maybe? 10u typically play tourneys from end of February until July 4th. 12-15 tourneys is typical. Still not seeing how 2K is all that unreasonable. The tourney fees are set, the practice field prices are set, the cost of baseballs is set....where can you cut costs? There are cheaper AA level tourneys or fundraiser tourneys but if you plan on playing TC, PG, USSSA, Grand Slam...yup, 2K sounds about right.
Cocoa there is not justification for $2,000 plus (Had a guy tell me one time on the first discussion we had that his 9u was $2,800 looked them up that season and they were getting blown out in every AA tournament) for any age of baseball under MAYBE HS age.
Latin Americans are sending the most players to the Major Leagues and they are not paying any large sum of money to play travel ball or even play it all period. There are teams out there that just charge an actual reasonable cost instead of treating it like a for profit business.
Paying an outrageous amount of money for your son to play travel ball won't make him a better player. The same way these daddy ball and friend ball coaches son's seem to generally not be above average players either.
AJ94, the budgets I have listed didn't include any paid coaching fees....the only way I see to cut the budget is to play less tourneys. TC, USSSA, PG all list their tourney fees on their websites, it isn't like the coaches are charging an additional 20% or anything. What would an ideal budget look like to you? |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2016 : 14:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
Just for the sake of argument, here's my 13U team budget based on the quotes and prices I have received:
Park fees $250.00 3 field slots/week
Uniform $260.00 2 hats, jerseys, belts, pants, socks/stirrups
Helmet $ 35.00
Bat bag $ 55.00
Catcher's gear $ 27.27
Practice gear $ 50.00 1 hat, 2 uniforms
Tournaments $613.64 15 @ $450
Indoor facility $116.36 16 uses
Total per player (11): $1,407.27
Now, granted this is less than the $2000/player total that has been thrown around but I have not included training ($125/hour for team instruction), a destination tournament (Ripken is $700/player), or the paid coach ($1000/kid on the team). Depending on what the team is offering, as CaCo said, $2000 is not a real stretch. On the other hand, my totals don't include any sponsorships or fundraising and there's always ways to cut costs if you look hard enough and there are plenty of destination tournaments not named Ripken.
Rather than painting with that super broad brush, I will say this. These boards are here to educate folks and the best advice is to ask where the money is going. Then, follow the old adage, "Trust. But verify." Last year in our Cooperstown year, my parents paid a little less than $250 out of pocket for our yearly team fees. I know some who paid $3600. Obviously I could have spent more and the other team might could have spent less. Regardless though, if you stroke a $500 or $3000 check to the West Elite Foosball Academy without asking questions, that's on you - not the coach, park, academy or organization.
I agree with your last sentence.
But for me drop the equipment package and if you are a "major level" team and such find a sponsor or two to help defer some costs. I personally am not paying any where near $2000 for travel baseball for a non HS aged boy.
I seen some of these $2000 players this season many of them could not catch a fly ball or throw a strike over the plate. No thanks. |
Edited by - aj94 on 07/28/2016 15:18:01 |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 07:25:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
One red flag that a parent told me about was a Park associated team charging 2k. Sounds like they are having other parents foot the bill for the coaches kids.
2K doesn't seem out of the norm to me.
Assuming 12 kids per team, charges are:
-Uniforms Fall = $100
-Tourney fees for Fall (2-4 tourneys) = $200
-Practice place for Fall = $200
-Winter Fees for batting practice = $100
-Spring Fees for park practice place = $200
-Spring Uniforms/bag/helmet = $200
-Spring tourneys = 15 at $500 a pop so each kid pays $625 (add more if you want PG
-Destination tourney = $200 per kid (at least)
-New Ball budget = $50
You haven't paid a coach or rainout practice facility and we are looking at $1875...why would 2K be unreasonable? Unless you plan on only playing in local 5 team tourneys.
USSSA tourneys. So it is a local 5 team tourney.
I just looked up 10u, because I know that is your age group punishers, here is what I found:
1. The NIT's averaged around 20 teams, although a few only had 4, the cost was $395-$473.
2. The average teams in a USSSA 10u tourney is about 7...some only had 3. Cost was $395
3. The state level two tourneys averaged 5 teams and South state championship had 9, cost was $450
So, okay, for 10u, if you plan on playing mostly USSSA the cost of the tourneys is $400 instead of $500 which if you play 15 of them like my previous budget gets you to $500 per kid instead of $625.
AJ94, 18u typically play what 8 weeks, maybe? 10u typically play tourneys from end of February until July 4th. 12-15 tourneys is typical. Still not seeing how 2K is all that unreasonable. The tourney fees are set, the practice field prices are set, the cost of baseballs is set....where can you cut costs? There are cheaper AA level tourneys or fundraiser tourneys but if you plan on playing TC, PG, USSSA, Grand Slam...yup, 2K sounds about right.
Cocoa there is not justification for $2,000 plus (Had a guy tell me one time on the first discussion we had that his 9u was $2,800 looked them up that season and they were getting blown out in every AA tournament) for any age of baseball under MAYBE HS age.
Latin Americans are sending the most players to the Major Leagues and they are not paying any large sum of money to play travel ball or even play it all period. There are teams out there that just charge an actual reasonable cost instead of treating it like a for profit business.
Paying an outrageous amount of money for your son to play travel ball won't make him a better player. The same way these daddy ball and friend ball coaches son's seem to generally not be above average players either.
AJ94, the budgets I have listed didn't include any paid coaching fees....the only way I see to cut the budget is to play less tourneys. TC, USSSA, PG all list their tourney fees on their websites, it isn't like the coaches are charging an additional 20% or anything. What would an ideal budget look like to you?
No "paid coach" needed at any age group below 14u for one, I seen many of these "paid coach" teams getting beat by 10 plus runs every tournament. But to answer your question I have been with teams that charged $400 or less throughout the years because the team management wasn't trying to make a profit off some kids back. At 12u and lower a team fee of $850 or so max is what I expect.
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 09:05:44
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| Not everyone in younger age groups goes to paid coaching to win games. Sometimes it is just to be free of daddy ball. Sometimes development.. and to gain included in practice what others pay alot of $$ for outside of their lower cost team fees in private lessons. No doubt all the paid coaching in the world won't turn a kid into an MLB player if he doesn't have the "it" factor, so that really is just an individual choice, and by no means necessary. However, the single biggest cost is tournament fees. Period. No changing that if you want to play a good schedule against competitve teams. Not alot of wiggle room in field or facility fees either. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 07/29/2016 11:57:59 |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 09:51:33
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Apples to Oranges. Any kid from DR who is a top prospect is shipped to a baseball academy in lieu of middle/high school. They play baseball all day, every day. They live in poverty, so really, nothing to lose. The motivators for a kid in the DR to work hard to develop their skills, and the means and approach to do so are nothing like anything here in the USA. If you haven't been fortunate enough to have seen the documentary Ballplayer: Pelotero, I highly recommend you watch it. Gives true insight to to DR baseball.
http://www.ballplayerpelotero.com/ |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 10:00:58
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AJ94, in your scenario do you have free practice facilities (indoor and out), volunteer coaches, zero private instructor consultants for hitting or pitching, and parents only purchasing a hat and shirt from the club? That's the only way I can see that budget working.
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 10:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
[quote]
No "paid coach" needed at any age group below 14u for one, I seen many of these "paid coach" teams getting beat by 10 plus runs every tournament. But to answer your question I have been with teams that charged $400 or less throughout the years because the team management wasn't trying to make a profit off some kids back. At 12u and lower a team fee of $850 or so max is what I expect.
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Really? You're comparing the DR to N. GA???? Does the DR have tourneys every weekend that run between $350 and $750???
I really, REALLY want to see your breakdown of $4,800 ($400 per, at 12 kids) for a team budget. SHOW ME. In today's dollars, and costs. Not "throughout the years".... TODAY'S cost.
Let me see you uniform kids, get field space, have practice/game balls, enter tournaments... WITHOUT sponsors/fundraisers.
I'm waiting to see if this is possible. (Oh, and let's keep it reasonable... 8 tourneys max.)
Go. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 15:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
[quote]
No "paid coach" needed at any age group below 14u for one, I seen many of these "paid coach" teams getting beat by 10 plus runs every tournament. But to answer your question I have been with teams that charged $400 or less throughout the years because the team management wasn't trying to make a profit off some kids back. At 12u and lower a team fee of $850 or so max is what I expect.
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Really? You're comparing the DR to N. GA???? Does the DR have tourneys every weekend that run between $350 and $750???
I really, REALLY want to see your breakdown of $4,800 ($400 per, at 12 kids) for a team budget. SHOW ME. In today's dollars, and costs. Not "throughout the years".... TODAY'S cost.
Let me see you uniform kids, get field space, have practice/game balls, enter tournaments... WITHOUT sponsors/fundraisers.
I'm waiting to see if this is possible. (Oh, and let's keep it reasonable... 8 tourneys max.)
Go.
I would like to see it as well. I have spent a lot of time in Latin America and can say for a fact those kids play all-day, every day. Perfect weather conditions allow this. They also see baseball as a way out of their economic conditions. Here in the US our kids do not have that drive cause they get everything they want and need. Yes they pay nothing to play their tournaments and weekly games, but when you have nothing expect to pay nothing. Yes they put more players in the MLB than the U.S., but their conditions are different. If our kids took 1000's a balls and swings a day for the next 7 years, those are the results you would expect. It just doesn't happen that way in the U.S. Our kids simply to not have that type of grit cause we live in the "everybody gets a award" age. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2016 : 18:10:43
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| I haven't seen the documentary, but I have heard some things about baseball and the DR. Several things there that will never happen here. One is, MLB sponsors many of these "Baseball Academies". They are fishing for talent down there. These people are not eligible for the draft, so they can sign them to MiLB free agent contracts for next to nothing. They figure if they sign enough of them, they are bound to get a couple that work out in a big way. Two, these academies basically serve as agents. So, if a kid does get signed, the academies/owners get a huge percentage of their earnings. This would not be allowed and still be eligible for the draft here in the US. It is a completely different situation down there than here. Different laws, different rules, different interaction with MLB - every thing is different. What happens in the DR will NEVER wind up happening here. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2016 : 00:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I haven't seen the documentary, but I have heard some things about baseball and the DR. Several things there that will never happen here. One is, MLB sponsors many of these "Baseball Academies". They are fishing for talent down there. These people are not eligible for the draft, so they can sign them to MiLB free agent contracts for next to nothing. They figure if they sign enough of them, they are bound to get a couple that work out in a big way. Two, these academies basically serve as agents. So, if a kid does get signed, the academies/owners get a huge percentage of their earnings. This would not be allowed and still be eligible for the draft here in the US. It is a completely different situation down there than here. Different laws, different rules, different interaction with MLB - every thing is different. What happens in the DR will NEVER wind up happening here.
Correct!!! No draft for them. Free agents. International players have an advantage. They play professional level baseball in their country at age 15. Like my nephews who play professional basketball in Spain at age 16 cause there is no high school or college basketball. That would never happen in the US. The academies here try to do the same thing as they try to become agents for players getting drafted to get a cut of the signing bonus. I remember when the Dodgers setup a feeder academy in the DR, then other MLB teams started to follow suit. If relations were better with Cuba we would see a mass influx of cuban players in the MLB. We are not too far away from that either. I know a few players who skipped playing on showcase teams to move to the DR to play one season to be declared an international player. They got more money and spent less time in the minors before being called up to MLB.
Hard to convince a 18 yr old to go to college and be in $80k debt when they can play one season as an international player in a different country, come back get signed to a $20 million dollar MLB contract before they can legally buy alcohol. Baseball is a high risk, low reward sport for most people in the US. It's not like football or basketball: anyone, not matter how short or tall, fast or slow, athletic or not, can play.
For those parents who think they have the next Bryce Harper: Unless you are ready for your kid to drop out of high school at 15, get a GED and focus on baseball only. You are living a pipe dream. |
Edited by - Punishers on 07/30/2016 09:08:53 |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2016 : 15:11:16
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quote:
Correct!!! No draft for them. Free agents. International players have an advantage. They play professional level baseball in their country at age 15. Like my nephews who play professional basketball in Spain at age 16 cause there is no high school or college basketball. That would never happen in the US. The academies here try to do the same thing as they try to become agents for players getting drafted to get a cut of the signing bonus. I remember when the Dodgers setup a feeder academy in the DR, then other MLB teams started to follow suit. If relations were better with Cuba we would see a mass influx of cuban players in the MLB. We are not too far away from that either. I know a few players who skipped playing on showcase teams to move to the DR to play one season to be declared an international player. They got more money and spent less time in the minors before being called up to MLB.
Hard to convince a 18 yr old to go to college and be in $80k debt when they can play one season as an international player in a different country, come back get signed to a $20 million dollar MLB contract before they can legally buy alcohol. Baseball is a high risk, low reward sport for most people in the US. It's not like football or basketball: anyone, not matter how short or tall, fast or slow, athletic or not, can play.
For those parents who think they have the next Bryce Harper: Unless you are ready for your kid to drop out of high school at 15, get a GED and focus on baseball only. You are living a pipe dream.
Couple of things come to my mind. One, those international kids who are in pro acadamies are getting a little ahead of the curve as far as baseball is concerned. However, that is all they are getting. When they don't make it (and the vast majority don't), what do they have to fall back on to earn a living and become a productive part of society? Their baseball-only education? So, yea, I'll take having my son in America where he is becoming a more rounded person with a wider skill set than just playing baseball. If he becomes the next stud, I'll evaluate moving to the DR for year to work the system. Which if it were so easy, advantageous and lucrative, I wonder why we have yet to see a mass exodus of 1st rounders leave the States to go do it?
Two, it's not hard to believe that the Cuban government has figured out that their best and most lucrative export is baseball players. They allow these guys to leave, sign megamillion dollar contracts and guess where money can flow back into? Yep, Cuba. Who doesn't want to help their family and make a difference in poverty stricken areas? I don't know that is what is happening, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were. I'd actually be shocked if it's not.
Three, there are plenty of big leaguers who were born and raised in America who didn't drop out of HS at 15 to get a GED so they could concentrate soley on baseball. To suggest that doing anything less than that constitutes "a pipe dream" is beyond absurd. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2016 : 21:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sebaseball
quote:
Correct!!! No draft for them. Free agents. International players have an advantage. They play professional level baseball in their country at age 15. Like my nephews who play professional basketball in Spain at age 16 cause there is no high school or college basketball. That would never happen in the US. The academies here try to do the same thing as they try to become agents for players getting drafted to get a cut of the signing bonus. I remember when the Dodgers setup a feeder academy in the DR, then other MLB teams started to follow suit. If relations were better with Cuba we would see a mass influx of cuban players in the MLB. We are not too far away from that either. I know a few players who skipped playing on showcase teams to move to the DR to play one season to be declared an international player. They got more money and spent less time in the minors before being called up to MLB.
Hard to convince a 18 yr old to go to college and be in $80k debt when they can play one season as an international player in a different country, come back get signed to a $20 million dollar MLB contract before they can legally buy alcohol. Baseball is a high risk, low reward sport for most people in the US. It's not like football or basketball: anyone, not matter how short or tall, fast or slow, athletic or not, can play.
For those parents who think they have the next Bryce Harper: Unless you are ready for your kid to drop out of high school at 15, get a GED and focus on baseball only. You are living a pipe dream.
Couple of things come to my mind. One, those international kids who are in pro acadamies are getting a little ahead of the curve as far as baseball is concerned. However, that is all they are getting. When they don't make it (and the vast majority don't), what do they have to fall back on to earn a living and become a productive part of society? Their baseball-only education? So, yea, I'll take having my son in America where he is becoming a more rounded person with a wider skill set than just playing baseball. If he becomes the next stud, I'll evaluate moving to the DR for year to work the system. Which if it were so easy, advantageous and lucrative, I wonder why we have yet to see a mass exodus of 1st rounders leave the States to go do it?
Two, it's not hard to believe that the Cuban government has figured out that their best and most lucrative export is baseball players. They allow these guys to leave, sign megamillion dollar contracts and guess where money can flow back into? Yep, Cuba. Who doesn't want to help their family and make a difference in poverty stricken areas? I don't know that is what is happening, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were. I'd actually be shocked if it's not.
Three, there are plenty of big leaguers who were born and raised in America who didn't drop out of HS at 15 to get a GED so they could concentrate soley on baseball. To suggest that doing anything less than that constitutes "a pipe dream" is beyond absurd.
No need to leave if you are a 1st or high 2nd rounder. Never said there wasn't dues to be paid. Nothing wrong with paying after you have the contract unlike here where parents can be out of 60k just for their kid to play and end up with nothing but debt. Being in the US does not make you well rounded either. I've met more well rounded people from other countries than here during my travels. As far as something to fall back on, I know many people with college degrees that are still unemployed. A degree does not equal a job nor a career. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2016 : 10:03:06
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| No, a degree doesn't guarantee employment but it significantly increases the odds that you can find a job that will enable you to support yourself and a family one day if the baseball thing doesn't work out. I would NEVER consider encouraging my child to drop out of school to focus on baseball!! Nor would 99.9% of even the most driven travel baseball parents. Even for the most talented child in America, one injury can be career ending. There are PLENTY of major leaguers out there that did it the traditional way, securing a good education while playing the sport they loved, and ultimately becoming a top prospect. I would say if there was no real likelihood of being drafted then a smarter choice is to use baseball to get the best education it can provide you with (think ECB Patriots). And there are still D1 schools that won't cost you 60K (think KSU). But quitting school at 15 to move to DR and go for it???? Never. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2016 : 16:29:01
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| Any hoo. Back to the tryout red flags. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 11:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
AJ94, in your scenario do you have free practice facilities (indoor and out), volunteer coaches, zero private instructor consultants for hitting or pitching, and parents only purchasing a hat and shirt from the club? That's the only way I can see that budget working.
Yes. And they beat most of the $2,000 teams every tournament. No "consultants" needed, and no old man style uniform needed just a dri fit and a fitted hat. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 12:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Apples to Oranges. Any kid from DR who is a top prospect is shipped to a baseball academy in lieu of middle/high school. They play baseball all day, every day. They live in poverty, so really, nothing to lose. The motivators for a kid in the DR to work hard to develop their skills, and the means and approach to do so are nothing like anything here in the USA. If you haven't been fortunate enough to have seen the documentary Ballplayer: Pelotero, I highly recommend you watch it. Gives true insight to to DR baseball.
http://www.ballplayerpelotero.com/
Is that right? I know people personally from the Caribbean that got drafted into the majors and they didn't pay a single dime to play on a team with a "paid coach", play with an "Academy", or in some cases played travel ball period.
There is no apple to no orange, both are kids that can put in the work to get good whether they pay $2,000 or do it with someone who is willing to do it for free. Nothing wrong with trying to make a profit but just say that don't make it seem like you have to pay thousands of dollars to get good at baseball because you don't. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 12:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
[quote]
No "paid coach" needed at any age group below 14u for one, I seen many of these "paid coach" teams getting beat by 10 plus runs every tournament. But to answer your question I have been with teams that charged $400 or less throughout the years because the team management wasn't trying to make a profit off some kids back. At 12u and lower a team fee of $850 or so max is what I expect.
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Really? You're comparing the DR to N. GA???? Does the DR have tourneys every weekend that run between $350 and $750???
I really, REALLY want to see your breakdown of $4,800 ($400 per, at 12 kids) for a team budget. SHOW ME. In today's dollars, and costs. Not "throughout the years".... TODAY'S cost.
Let me see you uniform kids, get field space, have practice/game balls, enter tournaments... WITHOUT sponsors/fundraisers.
I'm waiting to see if this is possible. (Oh, and let's keep it reasonable... 8 tourneys max.)
Go.
I would like to see it as well. I have spent a lot of time in Latin America and can say for a fact those kids play all-day, every day. Perfect weather conditions allow this. They also see baseball as a way out of their economic conditions. Here in the US our kids do not have that drive cause they get everything they want and need. Yes they pay nothing to play their tournaments and weekly games, but when you have nothing expect to pay nothing. Yes they put more players in the MLB than the U.S., but their conditions are different. If our kids took 1000's a balls and swings a day for the next 7 years, those are the results you would expect. It just doesn't happen that way in the U.S. Our kids simply to not have that type of grit cause we live in the "everybody gets a award" age.
Will your team that you are posting tryouts for cost $2,000? If so good luck on that. I will be looking out at tourney results this fall and next spring to see how they perform. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 14:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
AJ94, in your scenario do you have free practice facilities (indoor and out), volunteer coaches, zero private instructor consultants for hitting or pitching, and parents only purchasing a hat and shirt from the club? That's the only way I can see that budget working.
Yes. And they beat most of the $2,000 teams every tournament. No "consultants" needed, and no old man style uniform needed just a dri fit and a fitted hat.
Must be nice. I've heard of volunteer dad coaches, which did cut down on the costs, but paying for a practice field was always costly. Also, usually the dad coaches that volunteered their time didn't know about the finer points of baseball so they hired in consultants like a hitting instructor or pitching instructor to go over the finer points but not yield the price tag of a paid coach there every practice.
If you have volunteer knowledgeable coaches with free field time and your happy with how much your kid is learning and plays, never leave. But this is not a typical scenario in the Atlanta area. |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 15:05:29
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aj94 is right that it can be done, but it sounds like this is a model that is becoming more rare. We're highly competitive at the Major level and we got it done for $10K at 13U. That included a new Richardson hat, two button down (sublimated) jerseys, new helmets (bought previous ones at 11U), eight tournaments, Gatorade and bench snacks (pretzels, breakfast bars, oranges) provided in dugout, and a little bit of paid coaching as well. Myself & the Asst. coach are dads who aren't paid & we don't have to pay for a practice field. Our total team cost for the spring has run between $8-$10K since 10U. We usually run about $2K for the fall (same hat & unis from the spring) and 4-5 tourneys.
We have some academies down here, but the vast majority of teams are still independent. With as many players & academies as there are in the metro area coupled with limited field resources, I can see where having a low budget, high competitive, independent team would be very difficult to find and/or develop. I think this is an advantage to South GA; along with no bumper to bumper traffic for as far as the eye can see, four lanes wide... |
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jbarley
75 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 16:16:14
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| I figure if a pitching or hitting coach is getting $50 a week from me for lessons a travel coach spending endless hours on a bucket is worth the same if not more and we all know they do not make that much. I pay them just to keep other parents away LOL |
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 16:37:20
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| I think all this paid coach vs non paid coach stuff is funny. Along with the guy here who post about training 24/7. The bottom line is baseball is not like the other 2 major sports. A guy with some height and athleticism can learn to shoot a basketball. A guy with some size and athleticism can learn to be a good football player. Baseball doesn't work that way. God gives a person only so much talent that can be maximized in baseball. Very few are born with the ceiling limits to even sniff a shot at becoming a professional player. By professional I mean any form of getting paid to play it. It don't matter how good of a coach you have if you are physically limited. Being from the Caribbean, America, Japan or Timbuktu doesn't mean much. Genetically, there may be advantages from being from one place or the other, but outside of that, not much. Certain people are born with a strong arm. Certain people are born with the ability to have good bat speed. Obviously training can MAXIMIZE whatever amount they have. Everyone has a ceiling regardless of what guru coaches them. I'm not saying you shouldn't seek out the best coaching you can find. Baseball, especially at the higher levels, is far more mental than it is physical. I don't care how good of a swing you have, if you're mentally weak, then you're screwed anyway. You get to a point where everyone around you can play, eventually it's going to come down to how you can handle it. A lot of the issue I see with "paid professional coaches" is they are scared to COACH the kids. I don't mean teach them how to swing and throw. I mean put them in pressure situations, put pressure on them in practice. Work on the mental side of it. It's a pressure game and the mentally weak need to go play soccer or some other sport because they will never make it in baseball. So regardless if you spend 3k or $500 the kids should be challenged and taught the game of baseball starting from the neck up. There is time for rest later as they get older. Talent will always show up eventually. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2016 : 21:47:01
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| Check out RIPOFF REPORT prior to committing with a team. I wish I had done that last year, would have saved myself a lot of money and my son a lot of frustration and he would have had his summer of baseball he was looking forward to. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2016 : 00:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by aj94
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by aj94
[quote]
No "paid coach" needed at any age group below 14u for one, I seen many of these "paid coach" teams getting beat by 10 plus runs every tournament. But to answer your question I have been with teams that charged $400 or less throughout the years because the team management wasn't trying to make a profit off some kids back. At 12u and lower a team fee of $850 or so max is what I expect.
$850 x 12 is $10,200. Are you telling me $10,000 is not enough for a team of kids to play summer baseball? If not why are kids with $0 from Dominican Republic dominating the Major Leagues?
Really? You're comparing the DR to N. GA???? Does the DR have tourneys every weekend that run between $350 and $750???
I really, REALLY want to see your breakdown of $4,800 ($400 per, at 12 kids) for a team budget. SHOW ME. In today's dollars, and costs. Not "throughout the years".... TODAY'S cost.
Let me see you uniform kids, get field space, have practice/game balls, enter tournaments... WITHOUT sponsors/fundraisers.
I'm waiting to see if this is possible. (Oh, and let's keep it reasonable... 8 tourneys max.)
Go.
I would like to see it as well. I have spent a lot of time in Latin America and can say for a fact those kids play all-day, every day. Perfect weather conditions allow this. They also see baseball as a way out of their economic conditions. Here in the US our kids do not have that drive cause they get everything they want and need. Yes they pay nothing to play their tournaments and weekly games, but when you have nothing expect to pay nothing. Yes they put more players in the MLB than the U.S., but their conditions are different. If our kids took 1000's a balls and swings a day for the next 7 years, those are the results you would expect. It just doesn't happen that way in the U.S. Our kids simply to not have that type of grit cause we live in the "everybody gets a award" age.
Will your team that you are posting tryouts for cost $2,000? If so good luck on that. I will be looking out at tourney results this fall and next spring to see how they perform.
Not 2k for us. I was referring to another team asking 2k. I could see 2k if trying to play every weekend during the spring/summer (Killing my weekends). Playing select tournaments with scrimmages in between would cut this cost. let's say 60-70% of the budget is tournament costs. It's like they increase in price 15% every year. |
Edited by - Punishers on 08/02/2016 09:16:30 |
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Tryout Red Flags
