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peashooter
297 Posts |
 Posted - 01/25/2012 : 10:43:57
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Guys, the organization doesn't matter. You all play in the same tournaments with the same scouts. It is 100% the coach that you get. Both organizations have very good coaches and some not so good coaches. YOU have to do the research. As being one of the first drafted players out of East Cobb, and coaching at 643 I can speak to both.
One suggestion is that if you have private coaches, and then go play at one of these organizations and like the coach, then listen to the coach. Just because you pay a private instructor doesn't mean they know how to teach. Just because a guy played college or pro ball doesn't mean they know the game or fundamentals. Don't forget the draft in pro ball is based 100% on POTENTIAL and not fundamentals. Scouts care zero about fundamentals.
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 13:51:12
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| My goodness, great post. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 14:17:39
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quote:
Originally posted by peashooter
One suggestion is that if you have private coaches, and then go play at one of these organizations and like the coach, then listen to the coach. Just because you pay a private instructor doesn't mean they know how to teach. Just because a guy played college or pro ball doesn't mean they know the game or fundamentals. Don't forget the draft in pro ball is based 100% on POTENTIAL and not fundamentals. Scouts care zero about fundamentals.
? Just because you pay a private instructor doesn't mean they know how to teach? Just because someone coaches doesn't mean they know how to teach or coach too. I don't get your point. Scouts may not care about fundamentals but High School and College coaches do, they don't want to waster their time teaching you fundamentals, 99% of the people who read this board wont have what you have, they will not even get an offer to play minor league baseball. |
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funnyhop
74 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 22:09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by peashooter
Guys, the organization doesn't matter. You all play in the same tournaments with the same scouts. It is 100% the coach that you get. Both organizations have very good coaches and some not so good coaches. YOU have to do the research. As being one of the first drafted players out of East Cobb, and coaching at 643 I can speak to both.
One suggestion is that if you have private coaches, and then go play at one of these organizations and like the coach, then listen to the coach. Just because you pay a private instructor doesn't mean they know how to teach. Just because a guy played college or pro ball doesn't mean they know the game or fundamentals. Don't forget the draft in pro ball is based 100% on POTENTIAL and not fundamentals. Scouts care zero about fundamentals.
I agree with everything you had to say up until the last sentence. Of course major league baseball organizations care about fundamentals. Hitting the cut off man, taking 3rd base from 1st, sacrificing to get a man in scoring position, and learning the signs and executing them are all fundamentals of the game. All were lost arts when the guys were juiced. Now the game is coming back to where it is supposed to be.............fundamentally sound teams will win more consistently.
So, regardless if you play at ECB, 643, or anywhere else, just make sure you learn the fundamentals from coaches who know what they are talking about...........and watch out for the posers and wannabees.
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2012 : 11:37:13
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Yeah the last sentence throws me off as well. "Just because a guy played college or pro ball doesn't mean they know the game or fundamentals. Don't forget the draft in pro ball is based 100% on POTENTIAL and not fundamentals. Scouts care zero about fundamentals."
You sort of contradict yourself, why worry if a coach knows fundamentals "If scouts don't care about fundamentals?" |
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itsgone
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2012 : 09:43:21
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Don't forget the draft in pro ball is based 100% on POTENTIAL and not fundamentals. Scouts care zero about fundamentals.
Hey Pea, if this were true, how come the scouts don't attend other sporting drafts and look for "potential" there ? Football combine would be a great place, NCAA Wrestling tournaments, college track meets another etc. Seems to me they could find plenty of potential with zero fundamentals at those events.
I think it would be more accurate to say they look at fundamentals and they also look for potential upside and areas for growth in a prospect. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 17:15:25
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| Funnyhop... Pro scouts don't care about fundamentals. Don't kid yourself. I played with players up until AA that could not catch a fly ball, could not throw accurately from the outfield, could not catch a ground ball at 3rb. Why were they in pro ball? They had bat speed, and could run fast. Sorry, Them's the apples. It is as simple as that. You can't coach speed, batspeed, and arm strength. Everything else is coachable. I don't agree with this, it is just reality. I honestly would have taken my HS infield over guys I had with the Expos up until AA. Heck my infield broke records for errors in a single season in Burlington Iowa. Our SS and 3B both had an insanely high amount of errors. |
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baseball1
56 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 09:43:34
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| My son played at EC for 4 years I coached 2 of those years so have been to their meetings re organization ,$$ , etc... they are a business and make no excuses about it ,they run a good business IMO and I have not ever known of them misleading anyone about any $$ involved to be a part of their program. I don't know of any major programs that do not operate for profits , that would include the recreational parks as well who are under city and county programs . ECB clearly puts $$ back into the facility for improvements and upkeep ... Coaching at 643 is more an on the same page development program rather than the independent operating teams at EC . With exception of the Astros the average talent level per team is higher at 643 as EC has so many teams at each age group and the level of teams spans wide . |
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Outtahere
43 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 11:44:55
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Pea,
As a parent paying for lessons and fundamental training I want my son fielding the ball the right way. I don't care if he plays college ball or high school for that matter. Just like with the other life lessons I teach him he needs to do it right or not at all. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 08:06:07
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| Actually, East Cobb is registered as a non-profit, 643, unless they have changed within the last year, is a for profit enterprise. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 09:20:13
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quote:
Originally posted by bballguy
How involved are Danny, Ryan and the other paid staff members with younger teams at 643?
Very. |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 09:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
I don't know of any major programs that do not operate for profits , that would include the recreational parks as well who are under city and county programs .
Perhaps these programs don't qualify as major, but both rec ball programs in my area (Eastside Basball Association and Sandy Plains Baseball Association) are 501(c)(3) non-profits that are run by volunteers. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 10:36:47
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Being a non-profit does not mean you are not paid. And one of the advantages to the general public regarding non-profits is that their IRS tax filings, Form 990, are open and available to anyone who wants to see them.
Spend some time on Google and you will find the tax filing for ECB Inc. Interesting to see where ECB gets their money and how much of it is "invested back in the facilities" (actually more than I thought so thats good), how much goes to the umpires, how much to the owners, total payroll, etc. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 13:07:26
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Absolutely correct. ECB is a non-profit. The following is directly copied from their home page:
The East Cobb Baseball Complex is owned and operated by ECB, Inc., a non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Being a non-profit does not mean you are not paid. And one of the advantages to the general public regarding non-profits is that their IRS tax filings, Form 990, are open and available to anyone who wants to see them.
Spend some time on Google and you will find the tax filing for ECB Inc. Interesting to see where ECB gets their money and how much of it is "invested back in the facilities" (actually more than I thought so thats good), how much goes to the umpires, how much to the owners, total payroll, etc.
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 14:00:43
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Both organizations are out to make money don't kid yourselves. With the amount of time the coaches spend with the kids, I don't blame them. You just have to be comfortable with that. I usually end up negative out of pocket each year for my team. It isn't about the money. For me the real joy is being able to try and help the kids deal with adversity. Losing, not everyone deserves a trophy, bad umpires, mean opposing parents, bad luck, nerves on the mound, nerves hitting etc. If you can get the kids to overcome their fears, then it will help them so much more in life.
Sure you want a coach that will help Johnny catch a ground ball with proper mechanics, but how many coaches are going to know when Johnny is nervous, and teaching him life lessons on a daily basis. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 14:13:02
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| Interesting that 643 is for profit. Also as a nonprofit, there is only a certain percentage that can be taken as salaries, I think their is a distinct difference between the programs If this is true, number one their is an openess at ECB and number 2 obviously ECB is not profit driven. 643 people can say what they want to but that program is a business. I find it very interesting that the county let a for profit business have access to government land over a nonprofit like the YMCA. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:38:09
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| What is wrong with making a profit ?? The 643 facility is a huge improvement over the property in it's previous condition isn't it? The city of Marietta now has an operation on that property which it can be proud of in my opinion. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandit_Hawk
What is wrong with making a profit ?? The 643 facility is a huge improvement over the property in it's previous condition isn't it? The city of Marietta now has an operation on that property which it can be proud of in my opinion.
Plus 643 pays rent on the property. The county now has an income on a property that was previously run down, unkempt and a home for the homeless. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 15:56:52
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Here we go with the "why was 643 allowed to take that land" argument. It was beat to death on here a while back.
Jalex, "an openess at ECB", "ECB is not profit driven"! WOW!!
They are a non-profit but they are extremely driven by their revenues. I guarantee you, I see it daily working with non-profits, that if they project a greater than zero bottom line then the owners find a way to siphon off more money. Look at "other expenses", "misc", etc. Sometimes it takes a forensic accountant to figure it all out. Also, the Depreciation line can be adjusted to reflect whatever number a company wants it to to zero out the bottom line.
Profit, non-profit, it doesn't factor in. Both do their best to provide a product you want and fight for market share. Luckily they are in a market where they both can survive offering slightly different pros and cons. We all should hope they both do well. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 16:25:41
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Nothing wrong with making a profit. I do have to correct you on one point though. The city of Marietta does not have an operation on that property, 643 Baseball inc. has an operation on that property that is being leased from the city for less than the average person's house payment.quote:
Originally posted by Bandit_Hawk
What is wrong with making a profit ?? The 643 facility is a huge improvement over the property in it's previous condition isn't it? The city of Marietta now has an operation on that property which it can be proud of in my opinion.
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 18:37:38
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| excoach12, your argument is some what flawed, first no one can own a non profit, you can sell the assets but the proceeds of the sell must benefit the organization or a similar non profit. Mr. Baldwin can not up and sell east cobb, he would have to leave it to someone else to run. Federal law requires you to post 3 years of 990 returns. You can go and look and clearly see that east coob 990s are pretty clean. Bottomline there is nothing wrong with being a profit organization, you have two guys that started organizations with different philosophies. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 22:05:31
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Jalex, please use quotation marks and quote my post where I even mentioned selling anything. Did you even read the post? I never said he sold anything.
And I certainly never said there was anything wrong with being a for profit organization.
Your response makes no sense whatsoever. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 00:01:13
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| No smart guy, u r the one talking about ur work with non profits and that owners steal money, just educating u that profits and nonprofits are 2 totally different beast. My point about assets, was to try to explain to you difference b/t the two. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 09:22:39
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| Actually I believe EC was formerly a "for-profit" organization. I'm almost positive the switch to non profit came in the last 5-7 years?? Could be wrong about that just something I have been told. I see big differences between the programs but both programs are there to get kids better at baseball and ready for the next level whatever that may be. Both programs have great people, Greg Brown, Danny Pralgo and Ryan Sterling from 643 are some of the nicest and most knowledgeable people in our area, but you can get the same quality coaching at ECB where we are currently at or multiple other programs in Atlanta(Team Elite/Homeplate, etc.)....Not all of these programs are for profit but they all generate revenue to stay running and pay the staff. If Danny(who still works his day job) happens to get rich(doubt it) from founding and running 643 then so be it, he is helping TONS of boys reach their potential and he fights as hard as anybody for his players to get the exposure needed to get a scholarship or seen by pro scouts. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2012 : 10:35:34
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Jalex, I also did not say anything at all about stealing money. I don't think you read the post.
No one at ECB is stealing money. My point was that profit or non-profits can make their numbers say what they want. There are alot of categories that can be manipulated up or down, it is not black and white. No where did I say ECB was doing anything dishonest, in fact, I said they were putting more money back into the organization than I thought they were. Thats a compliment to them.
Why so protective of ECB? I said we all should hope both do well. Both are good organizations. I have an issue with one person at ECB but not the whole organization. ECBs success translates into very good things for our kids so I hope they continue to do well. But I won't just drink the Kool-Aid that ECB is perfect and the worlds best and we all should bow down to ECB for being in our backyard. Won't do the same for 643 either. Try to be objective. |
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6-4-3 DP Academy vs ECB
