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sebaseball
101 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2016 : 16:29:13
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You're misinterpreting. It's a DAILY in game max, so if he pitches 30 in game 1, as soon as he throws a single pitch in game 2, he's at 31 pitches for the day and requires 1 day rest, so he could not toe the rubber again that day, or even the following day to pitch again, so a 3rd game on that day is out of the question.
He could pitch 10 pitches in three games on the same day and not require a day's rest.
In your scenario, he could pitch 30 pitches in game 1, then 65 pitches in game 2, but then he's hit his max for the day.
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The pitch threshold to be able to pitch the following day is 20 pitches for 14 yo & younger. It's 30 for 15 yo & older.
I had your same thought process until I asked PG for clarification prior to the tournament and used the exact scenerio that I laid out previously. Since we're 13U & the limit is 20 pitches, I purposely used 30 pitches in my hypothetical scenerio because that requires a day's rest. The response I got was that a player could throw 30 pitches in three seperate games on the same day since that would not exceed the daily maximum of 95. They also said that it was not advisable to pitch someone 3 times in a day. So, according to PG, you get 95 pitches in a day whether it's in one game or split up across multiple games on the same day.
I'm not saying PG is right or wrong or advocating for anyone to use a pitcher three times in a day, just putting the info out there so others will know how the pitch count rules are being applied so they'll know how to manage their staff. |
Edited by - sebaseball on 04/20/2016 17:47:18 |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 16:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Hmmmmm? I see free playing time in the future for top pitchers willing to play for multiple teams. Nah coach, I'm not interested in actually paying to be on your 25 man roster. But I'll be glad to drop in and pitch (on your teams dime) so your 12 player roster can actually function at PG tournaments.
Huh? If a team has 25 why would they need a guest pitcher.
If a team has 12 they are likely sub 14u, so again, why would they need a guest pitcher?
I'm guess "25 man roster" is the 'max size'-- so "guest pitcher" doesn't want to permanently take up space on the teams roster (nor pay money)-- he'll just come in and do merc work as needed.
And, in my opinion, sub-14U is where guest pitchers may be needed more than 14U+.... What's a GREAT strike to ball ratio, for say, 10U? 1:2 maybe? One would assume that it would (or SHOULD) get better as pitchers get older/better, no? So, by 14U, what's a great strike to ball ratio? Same? 1:2? 1:1? 2:1? 3:1?
Or a better way to ask, how many "pitches per inning" is considered "great" at 10U? Less than 15? Less than 12? Regardless, that's 1 inning max, if you want to pitch the next day. How many "pitches per inning" is considered "great" for 14U? Less than 12? Less than 10?
Point is, TONS of sub-14U teams have non-pitchers on their teams. Whether that's just "1 or 2" or maybe more "3 or 4", when you're on a pitch (vs. inning) count, you MAY need more arms. Unless, you're just going to burn pitchers in a 1 game and done situation-- which could actually lead to more overuse, than inning count. I've seen 10U players pitch 6-innings over the course of a 3-day TC tourney, and only throw 82 pitches. BUT, if same said pitcher threw 36 on Friday night, he couldn't have pitched the 2 innings on Saturday (where he was even more proficient), nor the 2 innings on Sunday, because of the 2 days rest. So maybe coach should just go ahead and throw him a complete game (or up to 85 pitches....)??? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 10:20:12
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Turntwo, to answer your questions/statements:
1. In my opinion (IMO) sub 13/14u should have just about everyone pitching. Even if they are slow pitchers surely they can throw the ball 50 feet to the catcher, if they can't they shouldn't be there.
2. A great strike ratio for sub 14u, IMO, is around 50%.
3. A great strike ratio for 14u, IMO, is around 70%.
3. How many pitches per inning is considered great for sub 14u, IMO, 12 and under.
Also, if a kid is looking good on the mound I am of the opinion you should let him pitch. That may be 4-6 innings. If he isn't looking good you are going to know that by pitch 20. This thinking does mean that your pitching plan MUST BE fluid but it's manageable if the coaches have taken the time to train everyone to pitch and knows when each of their pitchers are on/off their game. |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 11:22:03
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| I have to disagree. I don't think everyone should be pitching at sub 13/14u. When my son was playing 10-12u we had 4-5 pitchers who pitched the majority of innings. We had another 4-5 that could come in for spot duty. After that we had 3-4 who never pitched. This may have been choice or by there inability to throw strikes. Now, before you say they weren't developed as pitchers properly, I will say not everyone is meant to pitch. Some kids hate it and are terrified of it, for one reason or another. I think most teams sub 14u have 2-3 "starters" and the rest fill in as needed. I think you usually see these "starters" pitch 2-3 innings in pool play and then are meant to pitch 4-6 innings in bracket play. As or as strike percentage, I think 70% is a little high. In utilizing GameChanger, including the top tier Major teams, I think the 60-65% range is a little more accurate. And, keep in mind, not all pitches should be or are meant to be strikes. |
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bama 21
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 13:44:14
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I believe EVERYONE should be given the opportunity to pitch sub 13u, sure some can't pitch, but to not pitch just because you don't want to or your scared, is not a reason. Why should just a few kids take the brunt of all that wear and tear. I'll use the used car analogy, the more miles you have on you, the less you are worth.
Once you get to the age when you start seeing PO's, then it becomes less of an issue. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 13:45:50
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| That's why the PG format, aside from pitch smart, is really set up for older teams, to showcase only the best for the scouts. And all those teams have PO's. It might make sense to change the format for the younger kids to get more playing time and more of a chance to make it through, because obviously no one is scouting a 12 year old. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 14:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by lowandoutside
I have to disagree. I don't think everyone should be pitching at sub 13/14u. When my son was playing 10-12u we had 4-5 pitchers who pitched the majority of innings. We had another 4-5 that could come in for spot duty. After that we had 3-4 who never pitched. This may have been choice or by there inability to throw strikes. Now, before you say they weren't developed as pitchers properly, I will say not everyone is meant to pitch. Some kids hate it and are terrified of it, for one reason or another. I think most teams sub 14u have 2-3 "starters" and the rest fill in as needed. I think you usually see these "starters" pitch 2-3 innings in pool play and then are meant to pitch 4-6 innings in bracket play. As or as strike percentage, I think 70% is a little high. In utilizing GameChanger, including the top tier Major teams, I think the 60-65% range is a little more accurate. And, keep in mind, not all pitches should be or are meant to be strikes.
If you have 14 kids you can have 3 or 4 who never pitch. If you have 10 or 11 kids you can not.
Having 2 or 3 kids share the load of 2-3 innings in pool play and then 4-6 innings in bracket play is EXACTLY what these rules are trying to keep from happening!!! Let's say 2 innings in pool play and 4 innings in bracket, that's 6 innings a weekend. How many tourneys are you playing 15, 20? That is 90-120 innings IN THE SPRING, how many did that starter kid have to throw in the fall? How many pitching lessons did he take so he could stay on top? How many bullpens did he throw in a week where he was used for possibly 8 innings....if you don't get why PG is doing this please run the math yourself. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 15:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you have 14 kids you can have 3 or 4 who never pitch. If you have 10 or 11 kids you can not.
You make my point. Most 10-12U teams carry 10-12 kids... So as not to have disgruntled parents/kids, and too much pine time. So, smaller roster, easier to manage and keep everyone not only happy, but growing/developing... YET, and you do make a good point that PG's format for sub-14U isn't great, you think every one of the 10-12 players should pitch-- effectively (it's one thing to THROW off the mound, it's another to PITCH to at least get contact). What about your 3 or 4 catchers sharing duty behind the plate for the tourney? They are "not available" to pitch on days they catch (or dang sure shouldn't be)... So, that limits your "available pitchers" even more.
While I agree with pitch counts, vs. innings pitched, it just isn't practical for sub-14U teams with smaller rosters (less than 13 or so). There's a 10U PG going on this weekend. I'm curious, out of the 22 teams, how man will have to forfeit due to either out of pitching and/or violates pitching rules, and/or how much shorter the games are (innings) due to frequent pitching changes. |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 16:32:37
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Aside from the innings or pitches thrown in tourney play, a good point is brought up about how many tournaments are being played in the spring. That is a major factor and is just as important when discussing the issue of wear and tear on pitchers.
IMO, 10-12 tournaments is plenty in the spring which will get you 35-45 games. For 12U & below, that's two tourneys a month from Feb - June. 13U & above, you start in April to give the school ball kids time to finish, so the schedule is a bit more compact. Give them July & August off and you're back at it in the fall for 5-6 tournaments from Sept - early Nov. This schedule gives players right around the 4 months off that are recommended and around 60 games/year while not burning them out on the sport. Less really is more in this instance. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2016 : 16:57:47
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Here's the thing I see. For many years now, the rates of TJ surgery has been going up. Some may argue that's because it is more readily available, but I believe arm injuries have been going up in general. Many on this board have agreed that regulating overuse is much more effective by pitches than by innings. So, in general, these rules are a good thing and I think PG is to be commended to implement pitch count rules. Does it need to be tweaked? Maybe, but it is definitely a good start.
I would say that judging by many of the responses here, pitchers have been overused... Or at least coaches are VERY tempted to overuse them. You might not think so, but it has become obvious to me that many people are reluctant to use pitchers other than their studs in the big game. And in today's formats (PG-only pool winners advancing. TC-Gold, Silver, Bronze brackets) big games include pool games. These formats could lead to the better pitchers pitching even more often. So, strategizing your pitching rotation has become a big part of coaching, as it should be.
As others have mentioned, there are basically two ways to make sure you have enough pitching to make it through a tournament. Either more kids on the team pitch, or you add more kids to your roster. There's really no other way to do it. Coaches are going to have to make some tough choices. But, again, I think that is a good thing - and a big part of baseball.
If I were a coach now, I would try to get as many kids competent to pitch as possible. I would try to make them as efficient as possible. And that means work with them on being able to throw strikes. From my experience, if a pitcher throws 2 strikes for every ball, they are doing very well. And that is for any level and should be striven for. Not many teams will have a team full of exceptional pitchers. So, most pitchers will need to be taught to put the ball over the plate and let the defense play behind them. Some games may be high scoring affairs, but so be it. If you want to get through a tournament within the pitch guidelines, I think you are better off with pitchers that throw strikes than guys that get to the limits quickly.
I like the idea of using your better pitchers in pool play, especially in the PG events. As someone else mentioned, saving them for bracket play won't do any good if you don't make it to bracket play. For a long time when my son was 12-14, we would try to save him for the championship game. We soon learned that strategy wasn't very good because we got knocked out before the championship game. Depending on our opponent, we would use him to advance past the 1st round or use him for the semi-final game to get to the ship and take our chances. One summer, we advanced to the final or semi-finals 7 tournaments in a row.
I wish everyone the best of luck. With change comes a feeling of being uncomfortable. But, before you know it, it will be normal. I think the pitch count limits are a good thing. Not only will it help kids with really good arms from being overused and never meeting their potential, but it may help develop kids who may never have pitched. You never know, that kid who no one thought would ever be a pitcher may grow up to be the next Greg Maddux... |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 08:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you have 14 kids you can have 3 or 4 who never pitch. If you have 10 or 11 kids you can not.
You make my point. Most 10-12U teams carry 10-12 kids... So as not to have disgruntled parents/kids, and too much pine time. So, smaller roster, easier to manage and keep everyone not only happy, but growing/developing... YET, and you do make a good point that PG's format for sub-14U isn't great, you think every one of the 10-12 players should pitch-- effectively (it's one thing to THROW off the mound, it's another to PITCH to at least get contact). What about your 3 or 4 catchers sharing duty behind the plate for the tourney? They are "not available" to pitch on days they catch (or dang sure shouldn't be)... So, that limits your "available pitchers" even more.
While I agree with pitch counts, vs. innings pitched, it just isn't practical for sub-14U teams with smaller rosters (less than 13 or so). There's a 10U PG going on this weekend. I'm curious, out of the 22 teams, how man will have to forfeit due to either out of pitching and/or violates pitching rules, and/or how much shorter the games are (innings) due to frequent pitching changes.
Good point turntwo - we actually discussed this as coaches last night.
We carry 11 and pitch 7 - 8 regularly. In fact, a coach on an opposing team this weekend told one of his parents that we were morons because we didn't "put our stud on the mound" to face them in the first pool game and because we try to pitch all our guys at least an inning but no more than two on Saturdays.
I would love to say we have a stable of studs but what we have developed is a group of 2 - 3 who might carry us on a day, 3 - 4 who are going to come in and pound the strike zone and another 2 - 3 who might be able to get us through an inning or two in a pinch.
For this weekend at PG, I just feel blessed that we have games on Friday and Saturday, not both tomorrow. Makes managing to late Saturday and Sunday much easier. But, because of the small roster, we are going to have to swap pitchers at 20 just to make sure we have people left for our next game. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 12:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
If you have 14 kids you can have 3 or 4 who never pitch. If you have 10 or 11 kids you can not.
You make my point. Most 10-12U teams carry 10-12 kids... So as not to have disgruntled parents/kids, and too much pine time. So, smaller roster, easier to manage and keep everyone not only happy, but growing/developing... YET, and you do make a good point that PG's format for sub-14U isn't great, you think every one of the 10-12 players should pitch-- effectively (it's one thing to THROW off the mound, it's another to PITCH to at least get contact). What about your 3 or 4 catchers sharing duty behind the plate for the tourney? They are "not available" to pitch on days they catch (or dang sure shouldn't be)... So, that limits your "available pitchers" even more.
While I agree with pitch counts, vs. innings pitched, it just isn't practical for sub-14U teams with smaller rosters (less than 13 or so). There's a 10U PG going on this weekend. I'm curious, out of the 22 teams, how man will have to forfeit due to either out of pitching and/or violates pitching rules, and/or how much shorter the games are (innings) due to frequent pitching changes.
I still don't see the problem. It's about planning and pretty much everyone has to pitch. If you don't have most of your kids able to pitch do not enter into a PG event. Or you can go in with the mindset that "Our team is here to experience playing in these great facilities but we have no shot of making it to the championship so let's just have fun"
There are 103 teams per week at Cooperstown, I bet you well over half don't think they will make it to the 'ship! You go to Cooperstown for the experience, not to win it all, perhaps sub 14u teams should be looking at it like that? |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 14:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
There are 103 teams per week at Cooperstown, I bet you well over half don't think they will make it to the 'ship! You go to Cooperstown for the experience, not to win it all, perhaps sub 14u teams should be looking at it like that?
Since PG is local, it's not really "the experience" after the first or second time playing at LP, certainly not like Cooperstown. It's really just another tournament(albeit at a very nice facility -- if your games are at LP - 2/3 of ours were not last weekend) but it draws some really good teams, a few from neighboring states, so your higher level teams aren't going to want to miss it. In which case, you'd really like to be competitive. But with the pitching rules as they are, and teams (mine included) only carrying 11 players, that makes it very difficult.
There's got to be some happy medium to be found..... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 17:37:07
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Kind of to summarize my earlier post, I know it got a little rambling. If you don't have enough arms to follow the Pitchsmart guidelines and participate in a PG tournament, you are probably overusing your pitchers. Teach everyone to pitch and/or increase your roster size.
Coaches will have to do some strategic planning and every player may not play every inning, but those are things that have to be done to protect our young pitchers so they can continue to play - injury free - as long as their talent lets them. |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 22:50:51
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So, after our first experience, I can say we played longer than we typically do as the umps let us go 1:40 from our scheduled even though we started 10 minutes early. Free 10 minutes for us!
Last weekend we played 5 games and played 6 innings in every game all with a 1:30 time limit. Tonight, we would have hit it in the top of the third. We still only used four pitchers for four innings but I had to make pitching changes where I normally wouldn't just in case we played tomorrow night. (Count was 1-2 and the batter fouled off three pitches - had to remove my pitcher just to be safe.)
I dont know if it was the beautiful field, beautiful setting, or just the smell in the air but I couldn't ask for a better night of baseball. That place is freakin awesome. |
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brball
615 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2016 : 23:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
So, after our first experience, I can say we played longer than we typically do as the umps let us go 1:40 from our scheduled even though we started 10 minutes early. Free 10 minutes for us!
Last weekend we played 5 games and played 6 innings in every game all with a 1:30 time limit. Tonight, we would have hit it in the top of the third. We still only used four pitchers for four innings but I had to make pitching changes where I normally wouldn't just in case we played tomorrow night. (Count was 1-2 and the batter fouled off three pitches - had to remove my pitcher just to be safe.)
I dont know if it was the beautiful field, beautiful setting, or just the smell in the air but I couldn't ask for a better night of baseball. That place is freakin awesome.
Awesome = Lakepointe!!!
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2016 : 11:09:43
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| It can also work by just burning your pitchers one at a time by leaving them out there as long as possible, and as long as their pitch counts don't get ridiculous. So at the end of two pool games you can have 9 kids left who could still pitch. BUT everyone has to be "on" and at least 10 have to be able to pitch. He who has the best pitching and hitting combined will win. Great defense or great hitting alone won't get you through. If you have a shallow pitching lineup you are out. Conversely if you have great pitching and defense, but no hitting ..same outcome. But...isn't that what PG is all about?? I agree with taxi mom after you've "been there done that" for the cost TC or similar is a better value. When they are older it is the place to be for the serious competitors. For the younger groups you will see the same small number of teams make it to the end every time at PG with pitch smart in place. PG was recently largely blamed in a new book for being the primary cause of the increase in pitching related injuries to younger players. Strict adherence to pitch smart is most likely their answer to this. And it was developed by the MLB I believe, not PG or others, so it's probably a good idea in the long run. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2016 : 08:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
It can also work by just burning your pitchers one at a time by leaving them out there as long as possible, and as long as their pitch counts don't get ridiculous. So at the end of two pool games you can have 9 kids left who could still pitch. BUT everyone has to be "on" and at least 10 have to be able to pitch. He who has the best pitching and hitting combined will win. Great defense or great hitting alone won't get you through. If you have a shallow pitching lineup you are out. Conversely if you have great pitching and defense, but no hitting ..same outcome. But...isn't that what PG is all about?? I agree with taxi mom after you've "been there done that" for the cost TC or similar is a better value. When they are older it is the place to be for the serious competitors. For the younger groups you will see the same small number of teams make it to the end every time at PG with pitch smart in place. PG was recently largely blamed in a new book for being the primary cause of the increase in pitching related injuries to younger players. Strict adherence to pitch smart is most likely their answer to this. And it was developed by the MLB I believe, not PG or others, so it's probably a good idea in the long run.
The book came out last month and PG has been doing the pitch-smart guidelines for more than a year. It wasn't an answer to the book, protecting youth arms is something that they want to do. Here is PG's response to what the book said http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=12373
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 09:32:52
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| Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 04/26/2016 09:43:29 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 11:26:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory.
Honestly, blaming PG in any way for the rise in TJ surgeries is like blaming Kleenex for my cold! |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 14:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory.
Honestly, blaming PG in any way for the rise in TJ surgeries is like blaming Kleenex for my cold!
I don't agree. It's much more complicated than that. All the organizations operating in the baseball industrial complex have some soul-searching to do. They all need to examine what they are doing (unthinkingly and unintentionally) to encourage the abuse of young players' arms and see if they can make changes that will help shift the current culture. There is plenty of blame to go around -- coaches, parents, academies, tournament runners, youth baseball organizations, etc., but PG needs to accept its share, too. Enforcing the Pitch Smart guidelines is a way to do that and help change the thinking on this subject. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 15:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory.
Honestly, blaming PG in any way for the rise in TJ surgeries is like blaming Kleenex for my cold!
I don't agree. It's much more complicated than that. All the organizations operating in the baseball industrial complex have some soul-searching to do. They all need to examine what they are doing (unthinkingly and unintentionally) to encourage the abuse of young players' arms and see if they can make changes that will help shift the current culture. There is plenty of blame to go around -- coaches, parents, academies, tournament runners, youth baseball organizations, etc., but PG needs to accept its share, too. Enforcing the Pitch Smart guidelines is a way to do that and help change the thinking on this subject.
By your logic should Triple Crown and USSSA also take part of the blame? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 19:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory.
Honestly, blaming PG in any way for the rise in TJ surgeries is like blaming Kleenex for my cold!
I don't agree. It's much more complicated than that. All the organizations operating in the baseball industrial complex have some soul-searching to do. They all need to examine what they are doing (unthinkingly and unintentionally) to encourage the abuse of young players' arms and see if they can make changes that will help shift the current culture. There is plenty of blame to go around -- coaches, parents, academies, tournament runners, youth baseball organizations, etc., but PG needs to accept its share, too. Enforcing the Pitch Smart guidelines is a way to do that and help change the thinking on this subject.
By your logic should Triple Crown and USSSA also take part of the blame?
There is a difference between blame and responsibility. Frankly, you can blame PG, TC, Utrip, etc., etc. Include Twitter, facebook, youtube, every college and MLB team, ESPN, etc., etc.
That's the blame portion and they all do share some in the blame.
Responsibility.....That's on the coaches and parents. Period.
Now, did All those in the blame set out with the intent to hurt young children? No, absolutely not. But should they consider and monitor the results and take steps to do their best to mitigate the unintended consequences? I think they owe it to their customer base and I believe they agree and are trying to take steps to do so.
The bottom line is simple, High Velos gets scholarships and high draft slots. As long as that is a truth, there will be a rise in injuries of those pursuing it. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2016 : 21:30:31
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Originally posted by Baseballer13
If your tired of the nonsense check this out...... We just attended another tourney there.... You help them they work with you! Thats why I'm posting this... The best alternative to Cooperstown that we know of is the Cocoa Expo Sports Center and it is about half the price. I was in Florida last week and stopped by the place and could not believe how awesome it was. The dorms are unbelievable, crown mold, big screen TV's in rooms, porcelain and marble. Huge rec hall with a ton of games and several 32' TV's. The stadium is major league with huge megatron scoreboard. They have a 35,000 sq ft training building with 16 indoor AC cages and they have video screens. I've never seen so many at one location. I'm not sure how many fields but they have a ton of them. They told me it's for all ages not just 12U. We have played all over the U.S. and I have never seen a place that has this much stuff for baseball people. We signed up already and can't wait to go. Check it out, they'll surely sell out quickly once the word gets out.
http://www.cocoaexpo.com/baseball/baseball-national-invitational-tournament-details
You attended a tourney there? Looks like you work for them (per your name in your profile and the fact that all 4 of your posts have been promoting this facility)...... {eye roll} |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2016 : 08:08:33
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Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
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Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
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Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
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Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Gotcha. We played PG last year and though they recommended pitchsmart, they did not require compliance. There was certainly no penalty not to comply as there was a couple of weeks ago, nor did they enforce it at their early tournaments this year. Personally I think it's a good idea. I saw a Facebook post about that book and didn't think it was fair to blame PG. I have not seen penalties until recently, however, after all that negative publicity. They did the responsible thing. They are just an easy scapegoat. It's the rise in travel ball as a whole and the drive to win win win at all cost that is to blame. You can see how frustrated people get when it is actually mandatory.
Honestly, blaming PG in any way for the rise in TJ surgeries is like blaming Kleenex for my cold!
I don't agree. It's much more complicated than that. All the organizations operating in the baseball industrial complex have some soul-searching to do. They all need to examine what they are doing (unthinkingly and unintentionally) to encourage the abuse of young players' arms and see if they can make changes that will help shift the current culture. There is plenty of blame to go around -- coaches, parents, academies, tournament runners, youth baseball organizations, etc., but PG needs to accept its share, too. Enforcing the Pitch Smart guidelines is a way to do that and help change the thinking on this subject.
By your logic should Triple Crown and USSSA also take part of the blame?
Yes. I think all of these organizations need to take a good look at their current practices, policies, game rules, etc. and see if there are changes they can make to ensure young arms are protected. Pitch Smart is a good start. Sounds like it will need to be refined as it is implemented. Also, further changes may need to be made as more research comes out about what exactly causes arm injuries and what exactly protects against them (the old overuse vs. mechanics vs. genetics debate). Hopefully, the MLB has decided to lead from the front on this issue as it is in their best interest to save as many good arms as possible. |
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PG Pitch Counts
