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sebaseball
101 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2016 : 23:16:56
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My apologies in advance as I asked this on the 13U board, but since I didn't get a definitive answer, thought I try my hand here.
On PG's tournament page, they say that they are following the Pitch Smart guidelines in regards to Pitching Limitations. Now, the Pitch Smart guidelines are just that, voluntary guidelines. But since PG is deferring to them, does that mean that they are enforcing them as written? If so, how are they policing this and how are they letting each of the teams know how many pitches have been thrown so that they will know who on their staff is available to pitch and/or who may be pitching illegally against them? I'm taking a team up there in a couple of weeks and would like to know what I'm dealing with before I get there. I support the Pitch Smart guidelines by the way, so it's not that I'm opposed to them. I just want to be prepared and manage my team effectively.
Anybody played with PG this spring and have first hand insight into this? |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2016 : 10:10:14
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| I have no idea but would contact the tournament director for clarity. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2016 : 15:23:28
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Since PG utilizes GameChanger and has an official PG scorer for all games, my guess would be that it is up to each coach to monitor their own roster and adhere to the pitch limits, mandatory rest, etc. Ditto, as an opposing coach, review what your opponent has used pitching and who is eligible/ineligible and protest accordingly.
I doubt that PG is going to be a "police" to do that. Same way that Triple Crown and USSSA post innings pitched online and it was up to the coaches to use that info as described above. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2016 : 15:50:23
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| We have played there twice this spring and they did adhere to the 85 daily pitch limitation rules. We never used a pitcher in multiple games so the rest after 20 pitches never became an issue. However, you must have a deep pitching staff to be successful in making a deep run in a tourney with these rules. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2016 : 09:07:24
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Played this weekend in our first PG tournament that implemented the pitch limits. I have to say that it changed quite a bit about the tournament. Teams were switching pitchers very frequently, to keep them from going over the 20-pitch limit on the pool days (Fri/Sat) to keep them available for bracket on Sunday -- at the younger ages, teams with a smaller roster HAVE to do this to hope to have enough arms for bracket. I really felt like it greatly disturbed the flow of the game and hardly allows a pitcher to get into a groove......
It also makes no sense to me that a player could pitch 20 on Friday night, 20 on Saturday and then a full 85 on Sunday. That's 125 pitches in 48 hours. How is that healthy for an 11 year old arm? Yet, it's allowed.
We also saw the consequences when there's a violation - one team won a game 5-0, but their pitcher threw 86 pitches, so the team was disqualified from the game and the losing team was given the 5-0 win. An incredibly out of proportion consequence, I think.
I think they need to make some tweaks to the system. It's a great idea in theory, but it's not good in practice as currently implemented. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2016 : 13:37:13
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| In theory its good and it really levels the playing field where teams that overused their top 2-3 pitchers every tourney to secure wins are limited in their ability to do that. However I see the 85 one day limit as problematic because I think we all agree 85 pitches are WAY too many for an 11 year old on a day and this opens the door for the same coaches to use those same kids for that maximum. Except for daily maximum of 85 for 11-12 vs 95 for 13-14 the rules are the same for 11-14. Where over 35 requires 2 days of rest for an 11 yr old I'm not so sure a 14 year old needs 2 days of rest for 35 throws. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 04/17/2016 16:35:06 |
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brdymakr
53 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2016 : 20:00:30
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Agree 100% with two most recent posts (TaxiMom & Crazy). We also played this weekend in the PG event. Great tournament with quality Major level teams from GA and surrounding states.
But, with scheduled games on Friday/Sat/Sun for all teams, this applies the double edge sword test of a 3 game pool play format. On one side, it's great that everybody plays everybody in meaningful pool play situations and only the pool winners make bracket play. I think there is almost universal support for that format vs meaningless pool play games where most teams protect bracket pitchers and allowed "innings" vs # of allowed throws. On the other side in many formats, one pitch equals one inning and no one cares for that rule. Unless we want to see rosters on 11U and 12U teams swell to 15-17 so that teams have enough PO's to make a deep run on Sunday realistic in Majors bracket play. You'd likely see 17-20+ on the older teams based on the maximum daily limits (liberal) vs the maximum daily limits to throw the next day (a bit conservative) side of these rules.
I'm sure that the feedback provided by Coaches and Parents will continue to see our tournament systems improve. However, unless most/every kid on your 11/12U team is a Majors level arm, you're going to need to expand rosters past the standard 11-12 kids and break the #players=age of team rule that many teams seem to adhere to. Especially if you want to make sure that you have enough pitching to play Friday/Saturday 3 pool play formats under these pitch count limits and still have enough pitching to get you through 3-4 top flight Majors bracket games. IMHO of course. |
Edited by - brdymakr on 04/17/2016 20:40:29 |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 09:12:45
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| ^^^^yes. And it's a ridiculous notion to carry pitchers only in the younger age groups. It's the rare 10 year old that wants to ride the bench and only step in to pitch an inning here and there. How does this help with development in younger players? Seems counterproductive. Then there is the matter of fees. .do these kids pay the same as the rest of the team, or a reduced fee? Many potential issues and items that need to be tweaked but I think we all agree it's a step in the right direction towards protecting the health of young players who may not be able to advocate for themselves under pressure from an overzealous or uninformed parent or coach. |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 04/18/2016 09:22:01 |
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Dead Red
9 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 09:30:36
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| I'd have to agree with TaxiMom that the punishment did not fit the crime. Based on that scenario the 86th pitch would have been the 3rd out. Also heard there was some dispute about whether the number 86 was actually correct. If PG is going to hold teams to these numbers and have someone from the tournament keep the "offical pitchcount", then IMO the numbers need to be displayed publicly during the game (like in the Little League WS where you see the pitch counter on the dugout wall). That way there is no question about the number and everyone involved is on the same page. Agree as well on your Friday/Saturday/Sunday scenario as well. Based on the score it sounds like this pitcher handled his business. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 11:45:16
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| Typically, you wouldn't hard-stop at 85 pitches in the middle of an at-bat. If you start against a batter at 79 pitches and that at-bat lasted seven pitches, that should not count against him. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 11:53:59
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| Another interesting though/tidbit, with kudos to the Astros for winning at 11U......they had a pitcher who pitched 20 on Friday, 13 on Saturday, and 80 on Sunday. 113 pitches over 48 hours. Sounds crazy, right? BUT, interestingly enough, if we applied TC's rules of 6 innings per pitcher plus one additional inning for each game played over 4.....this pitcher didn't violate that (1 inning Friday, 1 inning Saturday, 5 innings Sunday - his game was the second game played on Sunday). So this scenario is equally as possible under other rules....... |
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Dead Red
9 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 13:18:45
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| Good point hshuler!! Forgot to include that! |
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cburney
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 14:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Typically, you wouldn't hard-stop at 85 pitches in the middle of an at-bat. If you start against a batter at 79 pitches and that at-bat lasted seven pitches, that should not count against him.
I wonder how this applies to the 20 & 35 pitch count rule when you are in the middle of an at-bat. Could you come back the next day if you started an AB under 20 and finished at 25? |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 15:39:00
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Typically, you wouldn't hard-stop at 85 pitches in the middle of an at-bat. If you start against a batter at 79 pitches and that at-bat lasted seven pitches, that should not count against him.
It shouldn't, but it did. My son came in and thew one pitch to a batter who was already 1-2, because our other pitcher was at 20 pitches for the day (coaches wanting to save him for the next day). That's part of what I meant by the rule interrupting the flow of the game......
quote:
Originally posted by cburney
I wonder how this applies to the 20 & 35 pitch count rule when you are in the middle of an at-bat. Could you come back the next day if you started an AB under 20 and finished at 25?
Under the current rule, no. Once you hit 21 pitches, you can't pitch the next day. |
Edited by - TaxiMom on 04/18/2016 16:00:56 |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 16:21:11
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| Why would anyone want to deal with that? Amazing what sheeple will do under the banner of "let's keep the kids safe". Next they will have to wear a helmet to ride a bicycle. |
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cburney
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 17:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Typically, you wouldn't hard-stop at 85 pitches in the middle of an at-bat. If you start against a batter at 79 pitches and that at-bat lasted seven pitches, that should not count against him.
It shouldn't, but it did. My son came in and thew one pitch to a batter who was already 1-2, because our other pitcher was at 20 pitches for the day (coaches wanting to save him for the next day). That's part of what I meant by the rule interrupting the flow of the game......
quote:
Originally posted by cburney
I wonder how this applies to the 20 & 35 pitch count rule when you are in the middle of an at-bat. Could you come back the next day if you started an AB under 20 and finished at 25?
Under the current rule, no. Once you hit 21 pitches, you can't pitch the next day.
Thanks, TaxiMom. This weekend will be interesting in 14U. |
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Bravemom
204 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2016 : 17:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Another interesting though/tidbit, with kudos to the Astros for winning at 11U......they had a pitcher who pitched 20 on Friday, 13 on Saturday, and 80 on Sunday. 113 pitches over 48 hours. Sounds crazy, right? BUT, interestingly enough, if we applied TC's rules of 6 innings per pitcher plus one additional inning for each game played over 4.....this pitcher didn't violate that (1 inning Friday, 1 inning Saturday, 5 innings Sunday - his game was the second game played on Sunday). So this scenario is equally as possible under other rules.......
 that sounds like a lot!!! Where is that pitch smart reference sheet,.. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2016 : 15:28:44
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| I actually didn't mind the pitching rules. The early 20 count limit does allow for multiple player to pitch. At a young age group like 11u, I think this type of rule gives more kids a chance to pitch. Unfortunately for us we just missed bracket play and my kid didn't get a chance to pitch. If your kid is like mine where they don't have an overly strong arm or hasn't become a reliable pitcher yet, it's really hard to get time on the mound. I think there should be a secondary limit so you don't have someone throw as many as they want on Saturday or Sunday. |
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LAA9ubaseball2013
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2016 : 19:21:40
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| What constitutes "1 day of rest" for Perfect Game. If a kid pitched 25 pitches at 9 AM on Saturday and finished at say 11:00 AM. Could he pitch at noon on Sunday--that would be 24 hours of rest?? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2016 : 21:36:19
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| If he pitches on Friday and hits the "one day rest" threshold, he can pitch again on Sunday. They don't use the clock. |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 10:43:33
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You can also still pitch in multiple games on the same day as long as you don't exceed the daily maximum. For 13U, the daily max is 95. So, say you have 3 pool games on Saturday. A player could throw 30 pitches in all three games (or any other combination you want to use) and still be within the rules. However, he'd be burned as a pitcher for the rest of the tourney.
In our tourney, we used 8 pitchers in 5 games, but 3 of those games were run rule games where we only played 4-5 innings. We had another 3 pitchers who would have seen the mound had those other games gone longer. Only 2 of our 8 saw action in multiple games. We took a 13 man roster for 13U with 11 of them who could pitch.
I support these rules, but they are going to require bigger rosters and/or a roster where every kid is capable of pitching at least somewhat effectively. The trickle down effect of larger rosters is that fringe position players will be on teams where they don't play as much as they do on teams with smaller rosters. This is going to lead to more pine time, less skill development, less enjoyment by players, more parent frustration/complaints, and more headaches for coaches. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 12:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sebaseball
You can also still pitch in multiple games on the same day as long as you don't exceed the daily maximum. For 13U, the daily max is 95. So, say you have 3 pool games on Saturday. A player could throw 30 pitches in all three games (or any other combination you want to use) and still be within the rules. However, he'd be burned as a pitcher for the rest of the tourney.
In our tourney, we used 8 pitchers in 5 games, but 3 of those games were run rule games where we only played 4-5 innings. We had another 3 pitchers who would have seen the mound had those other games gone longer. Only 2 of our 8 saw action in multiple games. We took a 13 man roster for 13U with 11 of them who could pitch.
You're misinterpreting. It's a DAILY in game max, so if he pitches 30 in game 1, as soon as he throws a single pitch in game 2, he's at 31 pitches for the day and requires 1 day rest, so he could not toe the rubber again that day, or even the following day to pitch again, so a 3rd game on that day is out of the question.
He could pitch 10 pitches in three games on the same day and not require a day's rest.
In your scenario, he could pitch 30 pitches in game 1, then 65 pitches in game 2, but then he's hit his max for the day. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 13:04:19
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| Hmmmmm? I see free playing time in the future for top pitchers willing to play for multiple teams. Nah coach, I'm not interested in actually paying to be on your 25 man roster. But I'll be glad to drop in and pitch (on your teams dime) so your 12 player roster can actually function at PG tournaments. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 13:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Hmmmmm? I see free playing time in the future for top pitchers willing to play for multiple teams. Nah coach, I'm not interested in actually paying to be on your 25 man roster. But I'll be glad to drop in and pitch (on your teams dime) so your 12 player roster can actually function at PG tournaments.
Huh? If a team has 25 why would they need a guest pitcher.
If a team has 12 they are likely sub 14u, so again, why would they need a guest pitcher? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2016 : 14:52:20
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| Glad I'm not a coach trying to manage this! |
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PG Pitch Counts
