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teddy41
421 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2016 : 09:37:58
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Often teams/programs may have more than one team per age group but if one team is off I.E. Top team they drop kids to play with lower team to do better in events? We all know most directors other than usssa do not really classify teams and rosters are like pulling teeth to find as well as most events are semi open to coach decision what level to play at, I think it sends a bad message to kids on lower team as well as showing coaches true colors. CLaim to be developing players but really padding wins. I would suggest if your Team B and you enter a event with A players then enter as team A not team B.
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Edited by - teddy41 on 03/27/2016 12:32:17 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 07:47:55
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Some organizations do this. I remember it being very popular with Team Elite and Giants baseball at the younger age groups and ECB is notorious for calling in out of staters at older age groups. I can tell you are upset but baseball does this across the board when the kids get older. Coaches act like they have a 35 man roster rather than a 15.
I believe TC events make you submit a finalized roster having no more than 20 kids...TWENTY kids for a youth tourney would indicate that they also are aware that this is happening and they are fine with it. Yes, USSSA does keep track of sandbagging and if a team steam rolled a D2 tourney because they grabbed the A team kids then perhaps you should submit a complaint to them.
If this is the type of thing that bothers you greatly be sure to add it to your list of things to ask a coach in July/August at tryouts. |
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SamQuick
75 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 08:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
Often teams/programs may have more than one team per age group but if one team is off I.E. Top team they drop kids to play with lower team to do better in events? We all know most directors other than usssa do not really classify teams and rosters are like pulling teeth to find as well as most events are semi open to coach decision what level to play at, I think it sends a bad message to kids on lower team as well as showing coaches true colors. CLaim to be developing players but really padding wins. I would suggest if your Team B and you enter a event with A players then enter as team A not team B.
Fair, depends on your definition. It is within the rules. There are other words that could apply: lame, disingenuous, conniving, etc. The teams/organizations who do this become known, though, and their efforts to make themselves seem something that they are not may result in them appearing to be what they truly are .... one or more of the attached list of adjectives. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 10:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
Often teams/programs may have more than one team per age group but if one team is off I.E. Top team they drop kids to play with lower team to do better in events? We all know most directors other than usssa do not really classify teams and rosters are like pulling teeth to find as well as most events are semi open to coach decision what level to play at, I think it sends a bad message to kids on lower team as well as showing coaches true colors. CLaim to be developing players but really padding wins. I would suggest if your Team B and you enter a event with A players then enter as team A not team B.
I guess it's according to what side of the argument you're looking at.... IF my son was on Team B, but had limited playing time in certain tourneys due to adding players from Team A-- not fair? Maybe. Pi$$ed? You bet-- and I'd have words for the coach. It's not right, just for 'wins' to sacrifice development and in-game reps.
IF my son was on a team that had registered for an Open tourney, and one of our opponents was a merging of Team A and Team B-- AND it was within the rules because rosters were NOT frozen, I wouldn't care. I'm not about the wins. A stout opponent just tests my son more. I get to see how he measures up.
I just don't think in one sentiment you can insinuate a team is trophy hunting (re: "Padding wins"), yet come across as saying it's not fair because the team (with IN the rules) took wins away from your team.
Are you saying that you're mad you didn't get to 'pad' your win total, because you had to play a combined team? Or are you mad because your son is on Team B, and lost game reps to Team A players that were called in? |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 10:51:40
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| Part of the problem is only USSSA really has classifications that stick. IN most tournaments they say AA or D3 or AAA or D2 but that is all based soley on honor. So a team in a so called AA can bring in AAA players because there is no real class system. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 11:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
Often teams/programs may have more than one team per age group but if one team is off I.E. Top team they drop kids to play with lower team to do better in events? We all know most directors other than usssa do not really classify teams and rosters are like pulling teeth to find as well as most events are semi open to coach decision what level to play at, I think it sends a bad message to kids on lower team as well as showing coaches true colors. CLaim to be developing players but really padding wins. I would suggest if your Team B and you enter a event with A players then enter as team A not team B.
I guess it's according to what side of the argument you're looking at.... IF my son was on Team B, but had limited playing time in certain tourneys due to adding players from Team A-- not fair? Maybe. Pi$$ed? You bet-- and I'd have words for the coach. It's not right, just for 'wins' to sacrifice development and in-game reps.
IF my son was on a team that had registered for an Open tourney, and one of our opponents was a merging of Team A and Team B-- AND it was within the rules because rosters were NOT frozen, I wouldn't care. I'm not about the wins. A stout opponent just tests my son more. I get to see how he measures up.
I just don't think in one sentiment you can insinuate a team is trophy hunting (re: "Padding wins"), yet come across as saying it's not fair because the team (with IN the rules) took wins away from your team.
Are you saying that you're mad you didn't get to 'pad' your win total, because you had to play a combined team? Or are you mad because your son is on Team B, and lost game reps to Team A players that were called in?
^^^this x2.........
We played and lost a semi final game to a team that had a completely different squad than they did in pool play(All I could think of was how PO'd I'd have been if my kid was on that team). Apparently, it was NOT in the rules at this tourney and we got to play in the championship game anyway as they had to forfeit..........after the UGLINESS was over. And it was Ugly!! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 13:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
Often teams/programs may have more than one team per age group but if one team is off I.E. Top team they drop kids to play with lower team to do better in events? We all know most directors other than usssa do not really classify teams and rosters are like pulling teeth to find as well as most events are semi open to coach decision what level to play at, I think it sends a bad message to kids on lower team as well as showing coaches true colors. CLaim to be developing players but really padding wins. I would suggest if your Team B and you enter a event with A players then enter as team A not team B.
I guess it's according to what side of the argument you're looking at.... IF my son was on Team B, but had limited playing time in certain tourneys due to adding players from Team A-- not fair? Maybe. Pi$$ed? You bet-- and I'd have words for the coach. It's not right, just for 'wins' to sacrifice development and in-game reps.
IF my son was on a team that had registered for an Open tourney, and one of our opponents was a merging of Team A and Team B-- AND it was within the rules because rosters were NOT frozen, I wouldn't care. I'm not about the wins. A stout opponent just tests my son more. I get to see how he measures up.
I just don't think in one sentiment you can insinuate a team is trophy hunting (re: "Padding wins"), yet come across as saying it's not fair because the team (with IN the rules) took wins away from your team.
Are you saying that you're mad you didn't get to 'pad' your win total, because you had to play a combined team? Or are you mad because your son is on Team B, and lost game reps to Team A players that were called in?
^^^this x2.........
We played and lost a semi final game to a team that had a completely different squad than they did in pool play(All I could think of was how PO'd I'd have been if my kid was on that team). Apparently, it was NOT in the rules at this tourney and we got to play in the championship game anyway as they had to forfeit..........after the UGLINESS was over. And it was Ugly!!
So, the other team subbed in new players for the semi-final game and your team called them on it and the tourney made the other team forfeit? Is that how that happened? What organization made them forfeit? |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2016 : 16:54:47
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| We played a team recently that had a pitcher in a totally different uniform HMMM |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 00:05:08
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| Yes B. But the funny thing was we(our team) did not know it. The team getting ready to play in the championship against them noticed it. The scorekeeper said "thats not the same team we played in pool play" We happened to have the lineup with us and compared them........I dont remember any kids with the same name....maybe there was a couple but I am thinking None of them........Totally different team and they do this regularly in that org. It got ugly before we played, but yes....it was down at Legion field |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 06:46:19
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| The ONLY part of this discussion that carries ANY merit, would be the parent of a kid that loses out on playing time because of "pickup players". Regardless of what uniform a kid is wearing or IF a kid only played on Sunday, my opinion as a parent is solely on my kids playing time and performance. What is the argument going to be next year, if your son is playing school ball and the same thing happens....i.e. a ninth grader is on the JV squad and is brought down to play a 9th grade game? It's not fair? or you playing a doubleheader and they pitch strong pitcher in game two that wasn't present for game one? Call the school administrator on Monday morning and complain? |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 08:54:50
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I think most require a roster to be 'registered' (on line or otherwise) and kids can only be on one roster for a given tournament. It's up to the director to enforce or not. We have kids playing middle school ball, who miss Saturday and back Sunday.
Hey, if the parents 'sign up' for a team/org that will bring in the best players for Sunday-chances are they A) didn't believe the coach would actually do this or B) think their kid is better and should start anyway...that's on the parents. If the coach didn't make this philosophy clear, then have a chat w/ the coach running it. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 14:40:16
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| so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok? |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 15:53:09
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Define 'fair'.
If it's in the rules, then sure..it's 'fair'. If you want absolute defined rules on who is on team and plays and playing time, then play rec. I'm not just saying that to be flip, but unless they make you register a roster and the sanctioning party verifies kids are the 'right level'..it is what it is. If a tournament isn't doing what they say, by all means call them on it.
Now, as a parent of a player...would I want my kid on a team where a 'major' player takes his time taking my 'AA' player had been playing? Nope....would I want my major player spending time playing in a 'AA' tournament? Nope.
If it's my team being beat by he better player "showing up on Sunday" - hey, use it as a chance for your kid to play that level and either dominate or learn to compete against that level player. I'd then let director know we won't always want that for our weekend choice of tournament.
If it is your kid playing down or up, getting beat, or left out...you're the one that signed up for it. |
Edited by - tbaillie2 on 03/29/2016 16:28:14 |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2016 : 16:47:06
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok?
Sure. IF the tourney organization allows for 'open rosters' (something like, 'don't be on two teams in the same tourney', or 'have your rosters set by first pitch of first game').
No kids getting 'bumped', other (2? hard to think they would make such a big impact) kids getting some extra work. And, if the 2 kids that 'played down' to pitch, that only made the team that got to face them BETTER by seeing better pitching. No? |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2016 : 05:19:44
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok?
The ONLY association that utilizes a rule to prevent this is USSSA, I see where the hurt feelings are coming from now. |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2016 : 07:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
Yes B. But the funny thing was we(our team) did not know it. The team getting ready to play in the championship against them noticed it. The scorekeeper said "thats not the same team we played in pool play" We happened to have the lineup with us and compared them........I dont remember any kids with the same name....maybe there was a couple but I am thinking None of them........Totally different team and they do this regularly in that org. It got ugly before we played, but yes....it was down at Legion field
Jeepers, creepers... Was that in the tournament where we met? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2016 : 09:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok?
The ONLY association that utilizes a rule to prevent this is USSSA, I see where the hurt feelings are coming from now.
USSSA is not the only one.
Southern Sports/Exposure Events: "TEAM ROSTERS - MANDATORY OF ALL TEAMS BY THE THURSDAY PRIOR TO THE EVENT
ALL TEAMS MUST REGISTER WITH EXPOSURE BASEBALL EVENTS, AND SUBMIT A ROSTER FOR THEIR TEAM. TEAMS THAT DO NOT SUBMIT A ROSTER ONLINE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE EVENT."
Triple Crown: "ROSTER LIMITATIONS
May never exceed 20 players during the tournament series and in Triple Crown Championship Events. If you have players quit or transfer to a different team, they remain frozen spots on your roster. Example: If your roster has 13 players at your first tournament, you then have 7 spots left to fill throughout the remainder of the qualifying season and before the Triple Crown World Series or Summer Nationals. At any given time, a player may only appear on two Triple Crown rosters. However, a player may not appear on two separate teams in the same tournament."
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Edited by - CaCO3Girl on 03/30/2016 10:48:47 |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2016 : 05:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok?
The ONLY association that utilizes a rule to prevent this is USSSA, I see where the hurt feelings are coming from now.
USSSA is not the only one.
Southern Sports/Exposure Events: "TEAM ROSTERS - MANDATORY OF ALL TEAMS BY THE THURSDAY PRIOR TO THE EVENT
ALL TEAMS MUST REGISTER WITH EXPOSURE BASEBALL EVENTS, AND SUBMIT A ROSTER FOR THEIR TEAM. TEAMS THAT DO NOT SUBMIT A ROSTER ONLINE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE EVENT."
Triple Crown: "ROSTER LIMITATIONS
May never exceed 20 players during the tournament series and in Triple Crown Championship Events. If you have players quit or transfer to a different team, they remain frozen spots on your roster. Example: If your roster has 13 players at your first tournament, you then have 7 spots left to fill throughout the remainder of the qualifying season and before the Triple Crown World Series or Summer Nationals. At any given time, a player may only appear on two Triple Crown rosters. However, a player may not appear on two separate teams in the same tournament."
He is discussing classification of players and the loss of playing time of a AA player to a Major player, not a situation of a frozen roster or standard protocol of submitting a roster prior to a tournament!
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Edited by - Ryno23 on 03/31/2016 09:11:02 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2016 : 10:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
so if you were in a so called AA or d3 event and team has 2 kids off their major team playing but no one losing playing time that is ok?
The ONLY association that utilizes a rule to prevent this is USSSA, I see where the hurt feelings are coming from now.
USSSA is not the only one.
Southern Sports/Exposure Events: "TEAM ROSTERS - MANDATORY OF ALL TEAMS BY THE THURSDAY PRIOR TO THE EVENT
ALL TEAMS MUST REGISTER WITH EXPOSURE BASEBALL EVENTS, AND SUBMIT A ROSTER FOR THEIR TEAM. TEAMS THAT DO NOT SUBMIT A ROSTER ONLINE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE EVENT."
Triple Crown: "ROSTER LIMITATIONS
May never exceed 20 players during the tournament series and in Triple Crown Championship Events. If you have players quit or transfer to a different team, they remain frozen spots on your roster. Example: If your roster has 13 players at your first tournament, you then have 7 spots left to fill throughout the remainder of the qualifying season and before the Triple Crown World Series or Summer Nationals. At any given time, a player may only appear on two Triple Crown rosters. However, a player may not appear on two separate teams in the same tournament."
He is discussing classification of players and the loss of playing time of a AA player to a Major player, not a situation of a frozen roster or standard protocol of submitting a roster prior to a tournament!
I admit, I thought you were talking about frozen rosters...but how does USSSA prevent a major player from playing on a AA team? |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2016 : 12:11:35
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| USSSA came up with a rule regarding a single classification drop down, not that they enforce it majority of the time. Basically if a player was on a team that finished say the "10 year old season" on a major roster, then they would be classified as a "11U major player" and if they were to join an 11U AA team, the team would be reclassed to AAA just because of that one player. Since USSSA never starts the season with any single A teams, this is the only scenario in which this rule applies. I believe it was labeled the "single drop down player add" when they rolled it out at a coaches meeting. |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2016 : 15:52:43
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| Actually USSSA has a system where it is based on 3 points from a player Drop Down Rating System. Basically a AA team can bring down a Major Player (2 points) and a AAA Player (1 Point) and still enter a AA tournament. Or they could bring down three AAA Players (1 point each) and stay in a AA tournament. If any combination of the points equaled 4 or greater, then the team would be forced to play up in a AAA tournament. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2016 : 19:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
Yes B. But the funny thing was we(our team) did not know it. The team getting ready to play in the championship against them noticed it. The scorekeeper said "thats not the same team we played in pool play" We happened to have the lineup with us and compared them........I dont remember any kids with the same name....maybe there was a couple but I am thinking None of them........Totally different team and they do this regularly in that org. It got ugly before we played, but yes....it was down at Legion field
Jeepers, creepers... Was that in the tournament where we met?
No R,
Same place, but 2 years ago |
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Is this fair
