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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 03/02/2016 : 11:24:13
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Here is a story:
A young boy LOVED baseball! In 9u he dominated the mound! It carried on into 10u, 11u...he was on fire! The coach was thrilled and used him in every clutch situation, the parents were elated that their boy was doing so well and was so talented, and the boy was beyond happy that he could strike out so many players. By 14u his shoulder started hurting, but 15u his elbow didn't work like it was suppose to and with every pitch there was a sharp pain. By 16u the doctor told him to stop playing. He is now an adult,on his third shoulder surgery, and can't throw the ball more than 20 feet.
Youth Coaches, I would encourage you to have a conversation with every parent EVERY year about the importance of moderation of pitching on their son's arms. At 9u it seems so exciting when your boy gets to pitch, it's such a main role...but used too often and by coaches who have no problem using the same boy multiple days in a row it has the potential to cause your child a long lasting problem.
Your teams change every year. While YOU may be mindful of your pitchers arms their next coach may not be. TC, USSSA, PG...they all have guidelines to help protect a kids arm, but there are still ways to abuse a kids arm and there are coaches that just want to win NOW and don't care about the lasting ramifications for the player, they just don't think like that.
Please educate the parents, educate the players, it has to start somewhere. |
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Cajunjeep
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2016 : 16:11:21
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Good post. This past weekend we saw so many 11 and 12's throwing curve balls. We saw a pitcher throw 91 pitches in a game (our count could have been more). Crazy. It's not just the parents, its the coaches too. Parents, dont be afraid to discuss your child's pitching with a coach and let them know what you will allow and not allow.
I am sure this weekend we will see tons of benders from the 12U mounds. Coaches and parent will make excuses about why its ok and how it is just a few times etc etc etc. There will be kids throwing 80+ pitches and no one will say anything.
I will say this, just a few more kids that my kid will not have to compete against in high school. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2016 : 16:39:19
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| Parents should know this already. Coaches should do a better job managing, but the parents must intervene if/when needed. |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2016 : 18:09:50
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| There were 10u kids at the TC tournament this past weekend throwing curveballs. Just because they can, doesn't mean they should. |
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catmando
107 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2016 : 19:08:24
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| i would be interested to know who this person is that is no longer able to throw a baseball 20 feet. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2016 : 22:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by catmando
i would be interested to know who this person is that is no longer able to throw a baseball 20 feet.
Sidd Finch. He was amazing in his prime. |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 07:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by catmando
i would be interested to know who this person is that is no longer able to throw a baseball 20 feet.
Sidd Finch. He was amazing in his prime.
LOL! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 07:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by catmando
i would be interested to know who this person is that is no longer able to throw a baseball 20 feet.
A poster on another baseball site posted a similar story as personal experience. I did hodgepodge together multiple stories to get my point across, but here is a direct quote from the most recent post:
"My coach threw me anywhere from 21-58 innings a week. (I coach now but can not throw a ball more than 20 feet without extreme pain)"
He also made reference to more than one shoulder surgery.
I won't debate if the curve is okay or not for young kids, I've heard compelling debates on both sides of that discussion. I will say that unless you have, or are around, older baseball players the parent may not understand the damage being done to their kids arm. Parents look to the coaches to know how best to use their kids, sometimes the coaches are uneducated, sometimes they just don't think long term.
I would really like to encourage every youth coach to educate the parents so they DO understand the likely risk to their son. Just because YOU have morals and education, and won't abuse their child's arm, doesn't mean the next coach will. The parents need to be educated so they can be an advocate for their son.
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 07:59:26
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Good post...too many parents and coaches are caught up in winning games and being a stud at these young ages when it should be mainly about developing skills the right way..
ALCS MVP Lorenzo Cain did not start playing baseball until 16, being a stud at 9 or 10 does not matter in the big picture. |
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Cajunjeep
31 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 10:54:59
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at the 10, 11,12 and possibly 13 ages, the "Studs" many times are kids that are "big" kids that are sometimes as big around as they are tall. They hit it a mile right now, but unfortunately are just not that athletic and may not ever get there.
For those asking about kids being over used. I am 40 years old. I have a buddy that played college ball with me that has the scars to prove what it will do. He ended up with his 2nd surgery before transferring our university to play first base because he could not throw any longer. fortunately for him, he could hit the ball well and was able to move from PO to a field position but many cant. He used to say when he was in little league he was the only kid that the coach pitched. There are a few guys in ATL that know him and can attest that he was a super star pitcher all the way from little league through highschool. Once he got to college, his arm was toast.
He has a hard time throwing with his own kids now due to the pain. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 15:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Here is a story:
A young boy LOVED baseball! In 9u he dominated the mound! It carried on into 10u, 11u...he was on fire! The coach was thrilled and used him in every clutch situation, the parents were elated that their boy was doing so well and was so talented, and the boy was beyond happy that he could strike out so many players. By 14u his shoulder started hurting, but 15u his elbow didn't work like it was suppose to and with every pitch there was a sharp pain. By 16u the doctor told him to stop playing. He is now an adult,on his third shoulder surgery, and can't throw the ball more than 20 feet.
Youth Coaches, I would encourage you to have a conversation with every parent EVERY year about the importance of moderation of pitching on their son's arms. At 9u it seems so exciting when your boy gets to pitch, it's such a main role...but used too often and by coaches who have no problem using the same boy multiple days in a row it has the potential to cause your child a long lasting problem.
Your teams change every year. While YOU may be mindful of your pitchers arms their next coach may not be. TC, USSSA, PG...they all have guidelines to help protect a kids arm, but there are still ways to abuse a kids arm and there are coaches that just want to win NOW and don't care about the lasting ramifications for the player, they just don't think like that.
Please educate the parents, educate the players, it has to start somewhere.
You know B, I get your point and it is something I am going to take into high consideration........especially since my kid pitches and catches.
However, unless you have coaches that even care about the down the road effects, it wont matter and they certainly wont tell the parents hes not pitching because blah blah....
I think that perhaps title of your thread maybe should have been something more like, Hey Folks, educate Yourselves about pitch counts and its long term effects!
I have heard you bang this out on multiple occasions.......but to be honest, I dont know that I have EVER heard a coach talk about limiting throws, other than "tourney rules". Perhaps it is the parents that should pay attention and Teach the Coaches that need to be taught.........besides, its best if everyone is on the same page about everything anywho right!?! |
Edited by - bfriendly on 03/03/2016 17:05:15 |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 16:18:38
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| If you have to intervene...it's already too late, you picked the wrong team (coach in particular). |
Edited by - tbaillie2 on 03/03/2016 17:05:20 |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 17:40:23
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I know of at least one team that used buckets in practice when taking fly and ground balls. This was done to limit throws.
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brball
615 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2016 : 22:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
I know of at least one team that used buckets in practice when taking fly and ground balls. This was done to limit throws.
Some Combat team? |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 04:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
I know of at least one team that used buckets in practice when taking fly and ground balls. This was done to limit throws.
I have never seen this, but I sure do like the idea............it makes me cringe if I see a kid throwing the ball as far as he can with no real purpose other than getting it back to where it came from.
Even when I am playing catch with my kid. If a ball gets passed him, I will start walking towards him and will have him walk it in to me before he just reaches back and throws it as hard as he can.............I dont think its ever too late to learn new things. I have learned a lot from this place and the great folks sitting around this campfire. Again I thank you all who participate |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 08:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Here is a story:
A young boy LOVED baseball! In 9u he dominated the mound! It carried on into 10u, 11u...he was on fire! The coach was thrilled and used him in every clutch situation, the parents were elated that their boy was doing so well and was so talented, and the boy was beyond happy that he could strike out so many players. By 14u his shoulder started hurting, but 15u his elbow didn't work like it was suppose to and with every pitch there was a sharp pain. By 16u the doctor told him to stop playing. He is now an adult,on his third shoulder surgery, and can't throw the ball more than 20 feet.
Youth Coaches, I would encourage you to have a conversation with every parent EVERY year about the importance of moderation of pitching on their son's arms. At 9u it seems so exciting when your boy gets to pitch, it's such a main role...but used too often and by coaches who have no problem using the same boy multiple days in a row it has the potential to cause your child a long lasting problem.
Your teams change every year. While YOU may be mindful of your pitchers arms their next coach may not be. TC, USSSA, PG...they all have guidelines to help protect a kids arm, but there are still ways to abuse a kids arm and there are coaches that just want to win NOW and don't care about the lasting ramifications for the player, they just don't think like that.
Please educate the parents, educate the players, it has to start somewhere.
You know B, I get your point and it is something I am going to take into high consideration........especially since my kid pitches and catches.
However, unless you have coaches that even care about the down the road effects, it wont matter and they certainly wont tell the parents hes not pitching because blah blah....
I think that perhaps title of your thread maybe should have been something more like, Hey Folks, educate Yourselves about pitch counts and its long term effects!
I have heard you bang this out on multiple occasions.......but to be honest, I dont know that I have EVER heard a coach talk about limiting throws, other than "tourney rules". Perhaps it is the parents that should pay attention and Teach the Coaches that need to be taught.........besides, its best if everyone is on the same page about everything anywho right!?!
The problem B is that not all parents are on here. They haven't googled this site, and they haven't started looking into the future because well, their kid is 7,8,9, 10 and just enjoying baseball.
I would guesstimate that of the major teams maybe 50% of the parents are on here, but Major teams tend to know about arm care. It's the little parks with the AA or AAA Dad coached teams I worry about. Probably less than 10% of AA players parents have looked up this site, but MANY AA coaches are on here so I put it on the coaches to educate the parents.
Bfriendly, your kid is 12u...here are the phrases you SHOULD have already heard:
1. I don't want Tommy pitching in practice today, I want to use him on Saturday.
2. Don't warm up with the other players, you are pitching today, save your arm.
3. SHUT DOWN PERIOD (This is HUGE, if you didn't hear this you need to have a talk with your coach.
Some coaches have a plan, other coaches are winging it and just keep throwing their really good pitchers because it works...THAT is where the problem happens. The worst case scenario I can think of is that a youth pitcher practices pitching once or twice twice a week at practice, maybe 30-50 pitches per day, maybe they take a private lesson where they throw another 30-50 pitches, then gets put in on Saturday for 2-3 innings, then gets put in on Sunday until they are maxed out according to the tourney rules, and maybe in that scenario they get pulled off their other position and go onto the mound without really warming up. This has disaster written ALL over it, and it happens every year!
I am ALL for not questioning the coaches. If they want to bat Timmy 4th and bobby 1st I have no complaints. If they think John should play first instead of Sam, go for it, it's their team. But if they want to max out my kid on the mound in freaking February or do what I described above I'm going to let the momma bear come out to play, and I don't care what they think about me or the parents around me that want to win that game. It's not worth my kids arm. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 09:02:31
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| Caco3^^^^^ this yes. Everyone forgets all the throwing and pitching that goes on besides the tourneys. The practices, the weekly lesson (or 2!). If you are clueless as a parent you darn well better find a team with coaches that aren't and that have some real personal experience on the mound to back up their approach. But I have seen some scary stuff on the mound from majors and AA both. No doubt more in the AA world, majors more mechanical errors than too much time on the mound since they can go deep in the line up rather than depending on 2 or 3 kids to win it for the team every time. And teach your boys to speak up if their arm is bothering them. The mound is not the place to tough it out. |
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IBABASEBALL
45 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 10:11:57
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| Your son play fall baseball? |
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Cherokeeplayer
53 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 11:40:10
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| The example above is of course extreme, but isn't every kid different? Do parents track practice pitches or lesson pitches? How much do you let the coach go over before you say something? And how do you even start without being labeled as a trouble maker? |
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wasup
3 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 12:52:20
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| Something to think about if you're kid is a starting pitcher for his high school team - make sure he paces himself during the high school season in order to stay healthy during summer travel ball. Some high school coaches are selfish and do not look past high school baseball season, so he will try to get the most out of your kid during the season. We saw a lot of this the past couple of years and the result is the high school aces had to get Tommy John immediately after high school season - missing travel ball. This happened 2 years in a row. The hard part is parents having the courage to tell the high school coach to watch pitch counts. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 13:06:12
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| I wouldn't think twice about sacrificing high school for travel if my kid was being over used. If you have a boy with true talent travel is where 100% of his future will happen. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 13:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I wouldn't think twice about sacrificing high school for travel if my kid was being over used. If you have a boy with true talent travel is where 100% of his future will happen.
The older my son gets the more I realize how political this baseball world is. Yes crazyforbball, I am with you, and I do become momma bear about my kids arm. That is why before I allow my son to commit to a travel team I have a talk with the coach about MY expectations of pitch counts and ask him his philosophy. If he doesn't come out with hard facts and limits on when he pulls a kid I put a HUGE X on that team option.
Now High School...well crud, I don't know what I can do other than make my expectations clear to my son so he can follow through with his coach. You can't be seen as the crazy micromanaging parent in high school. Yes, Travel is likely the players future but who do you think the next coach will call? Yup, "Hey Mr. High School Coach I hear you have a boy named XXXXX on your team, what can you tell me about him?" The last thing I want the answer to be is "Oh the kid is great, but he has a psycho parent who pops up when he/she doesn't like something happening on the field and the kid seems to listen to the parent, so I'm not sure you want to go there Mr. College Baseball guy." |
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OPHornets
135 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2016 : 15:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I would guesstimate that of the major teams maybe 50% of the parents are on here, but Major teams tend to know about arm care. It's the little parks with the AA or AAA Dad coached teams I worry about. Probably less than 10% of AA players parents have looked up this site, but MANY AA coaches are on here so I put it on the coaches to educate the parents.
Your 10% figure is WAY low - anyone with a 4U All-Star player is already making their Dizzy Dean/U$$$A/Northside vs. Southside top 10 list!
re: Arm Care. We use buckets for infield/outfield drills in practice once our kids have thrown for a little bit. We reduce their throws between games on the weekends (how many times have you seen kids throw for 20 minutes "warming up" prior to their third game of the day?). We cut down on their infield/outfield, between inning throws during games (catcher's included) as the day(s)wear on. We communicate with their middle school coaches and parents to monitor how much they have thrown - if they pitched for the middle school on Thursday, there is a good chance they will be unavailable to us on the weekend even if they are our best chance to win. We do our very best to have them sit the bench prior to taking the mound so they can warm up properly. We don't allow breaking pitches and rely on location. We pitch everyone so no one gets overused and typically restrict our guys to about 60 - 75 pitches ... maybe more if they aren't laboring and obviously less if they are struggling.
We are four Dads who coach at a AA level.
There are idiots at all levels and it's not restricted to just Dads. We've seen a 10U kid throw 142 pitches over three innings and an 11U player throw 96 over four with 68 being curveballs. One was a AA Dad and another was a high AAA/Major team from an academy. Maybe our parents are just more in tune than most but they were just as appalled and vocal as we, the coaches, were in both/other situations.
I'm sure some will disagree with how we handle our guys but its our way of protecting these boys through the rigors of what amounts to a college baseball season while giving them enough reps to make them better.
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2016 : 22:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by OPHornets
We communicate with their middle school coaches and parents to monitor how much they have thrown - if they pitched for the middle school on Thursday, there is a good chance they will be unavailable to us on the weekend even if they are our best chance to win.
When we got to 12U, I made the decison with our team to not play travel baseball until after the middle school season is completely over. My reasoning is:
1) it puts the pitcher's health at risk. Even if they pitch during the week and not on the weekend, it's still another 1-2 full days of baseball on top of their 5 days a week of middle school baseball. These are kids, not professional athletes. These kid's bodies and minds need off time; weekly. Too much of a good thing continues to be not a good thing.
2) if a kid gets hurt and has to tell his middle school coach that he can't play due to an injury that occured at a travel tournament, that is not going to help him going forward with his middle/high school coaches.
3) the purpose of travel baseball, imo, is to prepare kids to compete for a job and play at a high level for their school's team. The vast majority of kids will see their "career" end with high school. To me, the idea of skipping high school to play travel ball is so wrong on a myriad of levels. I'm sure there may be some extreme outliers that this may make sense, but for 99% of kids, travel should be about preparing them for high school. So playing travel at the same time as their middle school season sets up a dynamic that one is more important than another.
We're still gonna have April, May & June to play 8-10 tournaments which has us finished before July 4th, giving families time to be a family and giving the football guys some time off before full practices crank up. We take July & August completely off with no baseball activities and then have a light practice/tourney schedule in Sept & Oct before throttling back to one hitting practice every other week and one throwing practice the other weeks in Nov & Dec. We have yet to have the 1st arm issue. |
Edited by - sebaseball on 03/06/2016 08:21:02 |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2016 : 23:00:06
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This is a 100% true story that I have 1st hand knowledge of:
12U player injures elbow pitching during spring. MD diagnoses him with a growth plate fracture and puts him in a cast for 6 weeks & then has him go through 8 weeks of physical therapy including a return to play throwing program. MD releases the player to play fall baseball, but tells the parents that he is NOT cleared to pitch.
Dad tells fall team coach that MD says no pitching, but then tell's coach that he's fine for his boy to pitch because he's already started his pitching lessons back and he wants to see how his son looks on the mound. Coach doesn't pitch him in tournament, so dad switches teams and several weeks later, after player has multiple pitching appearances, is back in the MD's office with a reinjury of the growth plate.
Should this rise to a level of child endangerment that warrants a call to DFACS? If yes, whose responsibility should it be to make that call? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2016 : 09:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sebaseball
Should this rise to a level of child endangerment that warrants a call to DFACS? If yes, whose responsibility should it be to make that call?
IMHO, yes as this borders on a form of child abuse. The responsibility should be the MD's, just as it would be if he observed any other evidence of abusive behavior. |
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Youth Coaches, educate the parents!
