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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2015 : 16:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
The moment you have a kid, or kids, on a team who think they do no wrong, because mom and dad tell him he "did great and it was the rest of the teams fault", is a moment that team is heading downhill towards demise. Just my opinion.
I can agree with this...I would NEVER let my kid blame the last kid at bat who struck out, or the one bad throw from short stop, or the one REALLY bad call from the umpire for the teams loss...at least he knows better than to say any of that in front of me.
But I do think when one kid puts forth extraordinary effort, not perfect but a really great effort, they should be complimented. Maybe the SS didn't get the ball over to first in time for the out...but it was an amazing stop and he should be told so...just my opinion. |
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abtigers
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2015 : 09:33:03
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| It does seem like the younger age groups are more focused on "my kid" and the parents' ability to brag about him. It is natural since a good number of people start this journey after they get bit by the All-Star bug and conclude that their kid is good enough to need better competition. Once these guys start school ball in 7th or 8th grade, they learn pretty quickly that a "me" mentality from the player or the parents does not work so well. And among the older guys I think there is peer pressure even in the dugout to get out of a "me" mentality and into a team mentality. None of this is universally true on every team of course. |
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scurray
11 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2015 : 22:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
The moment you have a kid, or kids, on a team who think they do no wrong, because mom and dad tell him he "did great and it was the rest of the teams fault", is a moment that team is heading downhill towards demise. Just my opinion.
I can agree with this...I would NEVER let my kid blame the last kid at bat who struck out, or the one bad throw from short stop, or the one REALLY bad call from the umpire for the teams loss...at least he knows better than to say any of that in front of me.
But I do think when one kid puts forth extraordinary effort, not perfect but a really great effort, they should be complimented. Maybe the SS didn't get the ball over to first in time for the out...but it was an amazing stop and he should be told so...just my opinion.
What do you do with kids, (at 11u) that do this, as an assistant I've grown weary of a couple that whine and blame, usually the umpire for the strike out. Or the ones that drop their shoulders and affect their focus for the next play? Sit them for inning or two to send a message? |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2015 : 15:03:02
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| I would sit a kid for an inning or two at the very least if he showed a bad attitude. " Attitude reflects leadership". It is not your job to parent this kid but it is your job to teach him that his whiny attitude does him and his team no good. You may catch grief from his parents but that is what leadership is all about. You are doing a young kid a disservice by allowing a whiny/blaming attitude. I would distinguish between genuine disappointment for a loss and an overall whiny attitude.We have all seen the difference. |
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tuffmavrick
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2015 : 15:35:18
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| How do you help a kid that plays hard and gives it he best most all the time but is super hard on his self when he make an error, hits line drive but gets out, or allows runs when pitching(earned or unearned). Some my see it as a bad attitude when it is disappointment because he feels he's done back. Does anyone have a way to help him or will he outgrow it. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2015 : 18:09:31
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They don't just outgrow it. Bad body language exists at all levels. Losing playing time is usually the remedy but not always the case.
I am not saying that I am the best parent in the world but I have never tolerated negative emotion (especially crying) from my son so we've rarely had issues. Attitude adjustments are occasionally necessary. I swear that my ten year-old team needed a full time child psychologist on staff...it was bad brother...lol! I still remember a parent telling me "my kid just cries..."
All of these kids are hard on themselves but some just handle failure better than others. |
Edited by - hshuler on 06/16/2015 18:50:29 |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2015 : 12:21:21
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I remember an incident a long time ago when I was young and I was playing ALTA tennis. One of the guys on my team made the commment " show me a good loser and I will show you a loser". I have to say now that I really disagree with this attitude. No one likes to lose or strike out when the bases are loaded to end the game but it is a fact of life. We need to teach our kids how to both lose and win with grace. I also think that it is a matter of perspective and situation. If a kid is constantly hard on himself no matter the situation then I think it is a teaching moment. Getting to the finals of a Tournament and making a critical error that costs the game etc.. calls for more emotion than making the same mistake in a meaningless game. It is not an easy task because we want our sons and daughters to care about their performance and effort but we also want them to keep things in perspective.
When you are talking about 10 & 11 year olds then they do not have the emotionally maturity to deal with disappointment. Most of them will outgrow it. |
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Kory
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2015 : 13:02:08
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| There is also a fine line between competitive and head case. I've seen some of the best athletes on the planet cry, act dissapointed, etc... all because they are competitive and the game MEANS something to them. I also think that for dual sport athletes (football for example), it is hard for a kid to be told that for half of the year he has to be a wild animal and the rest a stoic butterfly. I would rather see a kid care and get angry vs a kid who shrugs everything off like it doesn't matter. |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2015 : 15:13:46
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| Kory, I agree with you. At least when you have some kind of visible emotion you know the kid cares. The nonchalant attitude drives me nuts. And I think that there is a difference between being competitive and being a head case. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2015 : 17:57:22
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Bballman - I would like to get your opinion because I believe you have a son playing college ball. How important is body language and the perception of how you deal with failure?
For me, it's easy to see how much a kid cares by how he plays the game not by his tantrums. In my opinion, crying because you struck out in the bottom of the 7th with a chance to win the game is acceptable. Crying when you struck out and your team is winning by 20 runs is not. Some kids get one bad strike call and fall apart...and have no chance for success the rest of the at bat. Then they take their pouting to the field and commit a couple of errors.
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Edited by - hshuler on 06/17/2015 18:56:11 |
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abtigers
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2015 : 07:41:06
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quote:
Originally posted by tuffmavrick
How do you help a kid that plays hard and gives it he best most all the time but is super hard on his self when he make an error, hits line drive but gets out, or allows runs when pitching(earned or unearned). Some my see it as a bad attitude when it is disappointment because he feels he's done back. Does anyone have a way to help him or will he outgrow it.
It may be hard with younger kids but coaches need to reinforce with players that they are playing a game that is rife with failure and it's o.k. Failure has to be treated not as a problem but a learning opportunity to get better. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2015 : 10:12:09
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| There is emotion and then there is just being a brat. If my kid throws a helmet or a bat, from age 6 and on, he was told he would be pulled from the game by ME, the parent. It's just not acceptable. If the umps strike zone is insane and the kid strikes out and is huffing and puffing I would sit him and ask him to remember WHY he likes this game. It isn't always fair, but no one at bat decides the game. If a kid is truly upset and hard on himself to the point it affects who he is off the ball field I would ask parents to really consider if this GAME is right for their child. I have had to make it clear to my son that bad calls happen and if you can't move on from it then you won't be playing. More than once I have told a coach that "if you can I'd like you to sit him"...but that's where the parents have to be adult enough to recognize its more important for Johnny to learn the behavior is inappropriate than be out on the field. Some parents don't get that distinction because they want the win more than they want their kid to develope. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2015 : 10:30:45
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hshuler, since you asked me specifically, I guess I'll give a response. I'll tell a couple of stories, then give you my impressions at the college level and in general.
My son specifically has never been one to show emotions. He's always been the kind of kid that looks the same whether he's doing good or bad. Never got outwardly over excited when things went well and never got outwardly over excited when things went bad. Inside was another story though. I would ask him after games how he felt about a particular situation and he would often say he was super pissed. Never could have told from his reaction though. He was a very streaky hitter. In one particular stretch when he was 13, he had not gotten a hit in something like 20 or 25 at bats. He came back to the dugout after making an out and I could tell it was hard on him. Not by anything he did outwardly, I could just tell. I went up and put my arm around him and told him it would be OK, things would come around for him. I saw the tears well up in his eyes. He was HUGELY upset about it, he just didn't show it. Next time he came up in that game, bases were loaded with no outs I believe. Head coach came up to me and told me he was thinking about pinch hitting for him. I asked him to give him one more shot and if he didn't come through, pinch hit him next time. He reluctantly agreed. My son hit a grand slam. Next at bat, home run, next at bat double. We went on to win that tournament. That was my son and how he dealt with failure. He didn't show emotion.
Another kid on an earlier team was a crier. Every time he struck out, every time he had a bad outing on the mound. Wasn't too bad at coming back from it, but it was an issue. We only played travel with him for one year and I'm not sure how his coach dealt with it, but he eventually grew out of it. Went on to be a very good HS varsity player. I think he could have played college somewhere, but really didn't take the recruiting process seriously enough and didn't wind up with a place to play. He was good enough on the field and good enough in the class and was a good kid, but he and his family didn't really do enough to promote him and find a place to play and he wound up just going to school.
Last one. We had one kid that would cry, throw stuff, talk to himself, and generally be a huge baby. He was a very good ball player, but when things didn't go his way, he would lose it. I think he had been doing this since he was a little kid. He played for us at 13 & 14 and we wound up kicking him off the team during the 14 season. Like I said, he was a good ball player and cared immensely about winning and doing well, but his emotions severely impacted his performance as well as the mood of the team. Once he didn't do well, he was pretty much useless. I tried to follow him into HS and I think he played for a year or two and then I couldn't find anything on him anymore. His was a case that the emotional thing should have been nipped in the bud long before he came onto our team at 13. We tried sitting him, we talked to him, we moved him around on the field and in the order, but nothing really worked. It just got to the point that we had to ask him to leave. His dad actually thanked us afterwards. No one had been that firm with him before.
Bottom line is, if a player's reactions to failure lead to poor performance on the field, it is detrimental. I think generally, a player needs to keep his emotions under control. At the college level, I will see a few guys that will come into the dugout and slam their helmet after a making a big out, but then they are over it. Coaches usually ignore it, but that's because they are able to quickly get over it and do their job. If they can't get over it, they won't be playing long. I wouldn't encourage that kind of behavior on the recruiting trail though. I have seen and heard many stories of a recruiter watching a game, seeing a kid throw his helmet after an out and saying - that kid will not play on my team. It just is not something that is looked upon as a good thing.
I know this as well. If I see a pitcher start to give up some hits or even one particular big hit, and get visibly upset on the mound, I know it's over for him. Things usually go downhill from there. It is best to do your best to keep things under control.
Now, we are talking about kids on this board. I think there are times they are going to cry. There are times they are going to be upset. The question is, can they overcome that and get back on the field and continue to perform. That is what we need to coach them to do. Give them support, let them know it is ok to not come through every time. But let them know we still need them and they need to move on from this and do their job. The more times this is encouraged, the better they will get at overcoming it. If they start to throw things, sit them. If they go out on the field and are not in the game, sit them. Let them know that they need to get their head back in the game. But if they can get emotional and overcome it and stay focused on what they need to do, I think its ok.
One more story I just thought of. At Cooperstown, we had a particularly long day. We were playing a game at around 11 at night. Close game, my son came up to bat in a critical situation and struck out. The tears were flowing. It was literally the ONLY time I have ever seen him outwardly cry or show emotion like that on the field. He didn't throw things or yell or anything, he just had tears flowing. I didn't think he'd be able to see when he got on the field. I think we were up by one run and it was the last inning and he had to close the game out on the mound. Struck the side out!! I was shocked. But there is an example of being able to get the focus back and not let something that upsets you effect your play on the field. If you want to continue to play, you need to be able to re-focus after the failures. No one likes to fail. No one feels good about it. The key is quickly getting over it and re-focusing - very quickly. I think helping kids do this is a HUGE part of being a good coach.
Hope that wasn't too long and that it was helpful. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2015 : 12:50:11
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I knew you could explain it better than I could...lol!
I talk with my college coach (who is currently a scout) pretty often and bad body language is not a label you want on your kid. He recently talked about a kid who had first round talent but was a "fairweather player" in his words. Kid was okay until he faced some adversity. His exact words were 'we're not paying for that!' Translation - we would only draft him if we could get him several rounds later at major discount.
Again, I used examples of what's not acceptable (in my opinion) and am specifically talking kids that let one bad thing ruin their night.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2015 : 15:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
I knew you could explain it better than I could...lol!
I talk with my college coach (who is currently a scout) pretty often and bad body language is not a label you want on your kid. He recently talked about a kid who had first round talent but was a "fairweather player" in his words. Kid was okay until he faced some adversity. His exact words were 'we're not paying for that!' Translation - we would only draft him if we could get him several rounds later at major discount.
Again, I used examples of what's not acceptable (in my opinion) and am specifically talking kids that let one bad thing ruin their night.
Here's a quote from a poster on another message board that I go to. The topic was whether or not it was a good thing if a head coach wanted to see a prospect that the recruiting coordinator had identified. It pretty much sums up the question about body language and not letting a failure affect you:
"I would say it's a good thing....but it can also work both ways. Last summer, my son had an RC that really liked him....even though he was really struggling at the plate. The HC came to a game near the end of a 4-week rut that my son was in. Son struck out twice....then went out to third the next inning...proceeded to mope around like a 12 year old....and the HC told the RC...."No way...don't even both bringing him for a visit"." |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2015 : 23:23:16
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This thread just took off and became an AWESOME read! Our team last year had too many kids that would let emotions effect their performance and subsequently, the entire team.....
I watched a Pitcher throw an AWESOME Change up for a strike and was so pumped up he even did a little fist pump......I knew at that point, he was Doomed. As soon as the next pitch went into the dirt, the head went Down, shoulders down to the elbows. It was pretty sad to watch.
When I practice pitching with my kid I always pay attention to his emotions....When he Smiles after a nasty cutter or slider that starts at the batter but bends in and catches the corner(LIKE ITS SUPPOSED TO), I ask him "what are you smiling about?" Isn't that what your supposed to do?
I remember hearing Chipper talk about(on Driven?) how his dad Always asked him what More he could do, even after he had a Great Game.....I try to take that approach and it seems to work.
I dont want anyone to think I bully my own kid, but I am very tough on him and expect A lot out of him....... he led his team in just about every stat possible this past season and he kept his emotions in check as well as or better than anyone else on the team. More than likely its because we worked on it at home........I dont think it comes natural for everyone. Some yes, most no.
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 09:26:40
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So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!! |
Edited by - turntwo on 08/24/2015 10:19:27 |
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Kory
50 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 11:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!!
Yes, this was really good. I completely agree. Football has always been this way in our area. You have to make the 'ship to get hardware.
Another thing about knowing your role as a parent: Don't come on a message board and hype your kid as if he is the next Trout, only to have him show at tryouts acting like an entitled baby and talking smack to all that would listen. Including to kids who have been on the team for several years. It doesn't really look good. Especially when he is talking about how short the field is, only to foul off nearly every bp ball thrown his way. As parents we have to keep the kids grounded and be realistic about their skillset and ability so they can focus on areas to improve. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 13:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!!
Did you know his kids are 8 and 6? I think it's kind of sad to take away a 6 year old's trophy...my daughter got one for being on the tumble bus in her pre-K and she gave it a place of honor in her room and shows it to everyone. Personally I think it gives her some motivation to EARN more.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2015/08/20/participation-trophies-kids-children-james-harrison/32013681/
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Edited by - CaCO3Girl on 08/24/2015 14:07:50 |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 15:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!!
Did you know his kids are 8 and 6? I think it's kind of sad to take away a 6 year old's trophy...my daughter got one for being on the tumble bus in her pre-K and she gave it a place of honor in her room and shows it to everyone. Personally I think it gives her some motivation to EARN more.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2015/08/20/participation-trophies-kids-children-james-harrison/32013681/
I did/do know their ages. It's a moot point. Again, Harrison doesn't want to raise "entitled" kids. I completely agree. EARN it. And even when you do your best-- it may STILL not be good enough. Oh well. It's called: Life. |
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 16:30:20
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Harrison would rather generate a ton of media attention for himself over letting his six year old have a meaningless award. Someone give him a non-participation award trophy.
As far as reaction to the poor play of teammates, I always tell my kid to he should be picking his teammate up if they make a mistake. Do your job even harder for them just as they're gonna do when you make a mistake. That reminds them that they sink or swim together and should be fighting for each other. Obviously, it's harder to do when you got a primadonna on the team.
"It's a team sport, so I gotta put this loss squarely on the shoulder's of my supporting cast. I've been carrying these guys all year.... Leon can't do everything!!"
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Edited by - dad4kids on 08/24/2015 17:53:37 |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2015 : 16:49:22
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I agree as well.
Back in prehistoric times when I played, you got a certificate of participation (which no one framed and probably didn't take out of the car) but they gave out highly-coveted superlative trophies. I had a pretty large collection of trophies from grade school, high school and college but my 13 year-old probably has more. And because a large number of his are participation, he was over trophies by 10 years - old. He would much rather have a t-shirt. Chick's dig t-shirts...lol!
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Edited by - hshuler on 08/24/2015 17:52:25 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2015 : 08:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!!
Did you know his kids are 8 and 6? I think it's kind of sad to take away a 6 year old's trophy...my daughter got one for being on the tumble bus in her pre-K and she gave it a place of honor in her room and shows it to everyone. Personally I think it gives her some motivation to EARN more.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2015/08/20/participation-trophies-kids-children-james-harrison/32013681/
I did/do know their ages. It's a moot point. Again, Harrison doesn't want to raise "entitled" kids. I completely agree. EARN it. And even when you do your best-- it may STILL not be good enough. Oh well. It's called: Life.
Should a 13u kid get a participation trophy, no. Do I think a Kindergartner should be told they didn't EARN that trophy they are so proud of so it's being taking away until they earn one, no, I just think that's mean. I see no value in explaining to a 6 year old why he/she isn't good enough because they haven't accomplished a great thing yet, they can't even read how great of a thing can you accomplish at 6? I'd rather explain that if she wants s BIG trophy like Bubba's she has to earn it, but I'm fine letting her have her little plastic trophy.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one, that's what makes parenting so much fun! No instruction manual, let's all just wing it and hope for the best! |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2015 : 10:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
So... I think James Harrison may have said it best:
"I came home to find out that my boys received two trophies for nothing, participation trophies! While I am very proud of my boys for everything they do and will encourage them till the day I die, these trophies will be given back until they EARN a real trophy. I'm sorry I'm not sorry for believing that everything in life should be earned and I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best...cause sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better...not cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut u up and keep you happy. #harrisonfamilyvalues"
The highlighted part is my NEW favorite all-time quote!!!
Did they cry and whine until they got a trophy? I never read that anywhere. It's not their fault that participation trophies are handed out at end of season parties. Maybe they shouldn't participate in the post-game juice box/snacks because, you know, the boss doesn't give you a Rice Krispie treat just for showing up and doing your job. smh
Maybe he can take the video of all his cheap shots and explain to them why they are OK.
Typical Steeler bs. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2015 : 11:08:39
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I remember "back in the day" too. Teams had MVPs and nobody quit or cried if they didn't get it.You dreamed about it, worked your butt off to try and win it the next year, and the entire team was the beneficiary of that hard work.
At some point, schools started putting pressure on head coaches to reward little Johnny if daddy was a big booster. Those daddies must not have ever won anything legitimately, so they decided to control the future and and their kid and start buying success for lil Johnny. So the infamous "coaches award" was born and daddy ball began. Ultimately, the other stuff got phased out and then all little kids everywhere started getting a trophy just to show up.
A giant shelf with all my kid's stuff fell off the wall several years ago and smashed most of it to pieces. Some was fixable - but nobody fixed any of it. Didn't mean anything to him.
Now there are several items that do mean something to him and those have been put in a special place forever - but those are few and far between. He worked hard for those, his team worked hard for those, which is why they stand out.
Give credit where credit is due, not demanded. |
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Knowing your role-- when?
