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dblinkh1
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 00:40:07
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As the original poster it was not my intention to advocate cheating but it just seemed a safe topic to bring up. I guess I was mistaken. |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 10:24:23
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Many times a trick play is used to stop a rally by the other team. It seems to reenergize and refocus a team. I have seen it happen many times.
Miami did is several years back in the College Wolrd Series. Pitcher fake threw to first. Firstbaseman turns and starts running. The bullpen guys start jumping out of the way and moving seats. It worked! Moral of the story is stay awake out there and don't go anywhere if you don't see the ball.
These ARE part of the game. Like it or not. Maybe the ones complaining about these plays are the ones who have the plays run on them? Bet you worked on it after it happened. |
Edited by - Mike Corbin on 10/17/2008 14:32:29 |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 11:17:29
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PHATTSO wins the prize. I saw him run it more than once. Keep in mind these were not kids they were high school players. It was so funny to watch the other teams fans after the play. It was a good time. I wonder if anybody has used the ball ball trick. Pick off first base play. I have seen that one work also at older ages. |
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SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 11:53:42
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Trick plays are bush league, the reason you never see them at the higher levels is because, the next batter knows he going to be plunked. 30 years ago our college team had the old hidden ball trick played on them...Next three batters were all hit by the first pitch..our pitcher got tossed, but the message was clear...play bush league ball, get plunked. Today, nobady wants anyone intentionaly throwing at a kid (and I agree with that) heck nobody even likes brush back pitches...but as one of those "anti people" don't knock the ones that think trick plays are bush league and have futhered, what I believe is the biggest problem with youth baseball and that is a general lack of "Respect for the Game." Also agree strongly with the statement, "you really must be proud of yourselves coaches, for fooling kids. |
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scottwill311
52 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 15:25:56
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I want to apologize for bringing up the cheating play,I had no idea what effect it would have on the gentlemen on this site.I will run extra laps before and after practice!It was meant to be just a conversation piece.Get real!Cheating is a huge part of life.Its in all athletics,from the pros to peewee.Its in the business world,and god forbid anyone "cheat" on income taxes! I wouldn't question the coaches "respect for the game",however I would question his respect for the opposing coach.
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 15:40:48
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That is pretty dramatic don't you think. Nothing like completely taking the fun out of the game. Trick plays are BY NO MEANS showing a lack of respect for the game. You may not like them, but to call them Bush is nuts.
This was started in good fun and now you guys have turned this into something negative. Lets lighten up here boys.
And as far as tricking kids. For the most part it is tricking the coaches not the kids. |
Edited by - Mike Corbin on 10/17/2008 16:08:47 |
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gdad
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 16:04:29
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sportsdad,i agree with you.lets see more suicide sqeezes and homeplate steals,rather than someone running around trying to trick someone.lets see that pitcher putting one under the chin,then comming back with one on outside corner,thats what i like to see.thats the way i learned to play the game. |
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bstand
56 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 16:22:25
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The fact that baseball is a game implies that it should be fun. I don't think any of the posters on this thread are suggesting that coaches remove fun from the game. Rather I think they are trying to point out that the responsibility of the coach, especially as it pertains to youth, goes well beyond teaching the boys the skills required to successfully play the game. Responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly. Responisibility that it is an honor to have entrusted to today's leaders of our youth. The lessons the players learn about integrity, hard work, team work, effort, rules, respect, and dozens of other attributes that are learned while playing the game stay with them and they will draw on those lessons as adults.
To address scottwill311, yes, cheating is everywhere you turn. So is pornography, drugs, and a host of other things that exist but have no place on the ball field. Just because something is a "fact of life" doesn't justify teaching it to players as a means to compete. There is still something to be said of how you compete.... Not just the outcome of the competition. |
Edited by - bstand on 10/17/2008 17:18:04 |
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leftysmom
6 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 17:52:12
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quote: Originally posted by bstand
To address scottwill311, yes, cheating is everywhere you turn. So is pornography, drugs, and a host of other things that exist but have no place on the ball field. Just because something is a "fact of life" doesn't justify teaching it to players as a means to compete. There is still something to be said of how you compete.... Not just the outcome of the competition.
Thank you for that excellent example about cheating. Doing the right thing is often not the most popular route to take, but I wish more of us would try it.  |
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jscoda
123 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 08:27:46
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Sportsdad......speaks the truth.
As I have alwasy said "sports mimic life" and if you move your golf ball, skip a base, play an illegal player, cut corners, win at all cost.......then your life is just that way. Get ahead, win, cheat and after all if you don't get caught and it doesn't hurt you...then its ok, right? Don't you know you are the example the kids watch. Kids see everything and parents know who they want their kid to be around. Teach life skills and people will respect you.
Sorry guys but its not OK to teach my son how to cheat. And I don't think its funny to trick other kids. My kids don't play for teams who practice cheating. |
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Phattso
143 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 09:10:51
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quote: Originally posted by BREAMKING
PHATTSO wins the prize. I saw him run it more than once. Keep in mind these were not kids they were high school players. It was so funny to watch the other teams fans after the play. It was a good time. I wonder if anybody has used the ball ball trick. Pick off first base play. I have seen that one work also at older ages.
I played High School ball in Marietta, so I remember having to keep an eye out for that when we played them. I also played at East Cobb and remember coaches trying to implement the same play. I also remember the "Miami" play from when I was 10 years old.
As unethical as it may seem, it's a part of baseball and not much anyone can do about it. As someone mentioned, if the other team isn't into the game and not paying attention, they probably will see a trick play at some point. I know I'll pull a play out of my bag of tricks at some point. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 00:45:35
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side question who was told by head coach in high school to drill someone. I remember my brother having to drill his summer ball catcher one game. lol... |
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SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 00:53:01
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"That is pretty dramatic don't you think. Nothing like completely taking the fun out of the game. Trick plays are BY NO MEANS showing a lack of respect for the game. You may not like them, but to call them Bush is nuts."
I'm sorry, I just don't see whats fun about tricking a kid, and making a joke out of him..Everyone laughs at a "succesfull" trick play, except the kid who everyone is laughing at...OK I'll buy your line that they BY KNOW MEANS show a lack of respect for the game...but at the youth ages 8-12 they show a lack of decency towards a kid who, in himself, is just trying to have some fun...Yes sir re bob being humiliated is just what that kid signed up to for...made the butt of a joke by a coach who "needs to do that to win"...tricking the other coach...bahahhahhha, in your mind maybe, but in the mind of the kid who was just "tricked" , you just humiliated him...not his coach...After further review in epitomizes BUSH LEAGUE.. |
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you are out
34 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 19:39:08
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would you guys like some cheese to go with your whine? |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 02:37:52
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Hey Sportsdad, I will just agree to disagree with you. I just don't feel the same as you on this subject.
I just think that if your kids and coaches are into what is going on in the game you should be able to not get caught by one of these plays. If they catch you napping then I think you learn your lesson and move on. And I'd bet that you won't get caught by it again.
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triple7
20 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 10:47:53
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Coaches,
I have seen it the past 4 years my child has played travel ball. How the sport has changed. Last year was the worst I have seen. Putting a rubber ball in during a game. Bad thing is the umpires didn't even notice it. What type of cheating is that fall under. I don't think that team should of been able to advance another round. |
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SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 11:04:13
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I guess I'll come down on it depends on whom you are fooling..If a HS kid get "fooled" by the hidden ball trick or the Miami play, I'll say "come on now,you've never seen that before?" I still don't think it belongs in the game, and conversely I think if a coach uses it, he should have no problem with his first batter getting drilled over it. In younger age groups 8-12U nah come on, we've all coached long enough to know it's pretty darn easy to fool a kid. I probably know 3-4 "trick" plays that would fool 90% of 10 year olds. It's like the fake to third,throw to first pick-off...if you get caught napping on that play, regardless of age group, you should be embarassed, Now running the Miami play, calling foul ball on a hit and run, fooling a kid on second by having everyone run off the field with 2 outs on a 10 year old...nah, we will just have to agree to disagree on that stuff. There are really good deceptive plays, you can run to pick off a runner, that at the heart of them requires a coordinated good execution to be succesful, and not, at the heart of them, requires the ability to fool a kid. I'd rather see coaches teach that, than spend their time teaching how to fool kids. I think there is a difference between catching a kid "napping" and trying to "fool" them. The Miami play is only succesful if you fool the kid into thinking the ball was thrown into centerfield, a timed coordinated pickoff play with motion at second base, requires good execution to be succesful and catch him "napping". Maybe the difference is subtle, but I think it's an important one. |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 17:01:06
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Sportsdad, those are the plays that we typically work on, timing ones that is. So I will agree with you on that.
I heard about a rubber or plastic covered ball getting thrown in by a team at a tournament up in Knoxville. The bad part is it was by the host team. |
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SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 01:27:21
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Never seen the rubber ball used before, but nothing would amaze me. Somewhat off topic, but I'm sure we have all seen coaches try to run out the clock..I've seen three diferent pitching changes in one inning,trying to run out the clock..Fans/parents throw baseballs into the corners of the outfield, to run out the clock,various stall tactics, such as calling time numerous times at bat...Funny thing was, that even though it was obvious to all coaches and fans what was going on,the umpires didn't seem to mind...they gladly called time..game over..I'm guessing the numerous pitching changes aren't against the rules, but they certainly stretch the spirit of the rules. I don't know if there is any rule against "stalling tactics" but when you see it, it's so bush league (lol) there certainly should be some remedy against it. I've just never seen anything done about in a game...
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WJrWolverines
53 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 09:33:02
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Stalling tactics.....I've seen Spring travel ball coaches do it in the Fall with their Rec team - pathetic. |
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wildcats9596
110 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:21:26
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quote: Originally posted by SportsDad
Never seen the rubber ball used before, but nothing would amaze me. Somewhat off topic, but I'm sure we have all seen coaches try to run out the clock..I've seen three diferent pitching changes in one inning,trying to run out the clock..Fans/parents throw baseballs into the corners of the outfield, to run out the clock,various stall tactics, such as calling time numerous times at bat...Funny thing was, that even though it was obvious to all coaches and fans what was going on,the umpires didn't seem to mind...they gladly called time..game over..I'm guessing the numerous pitching changes aren't against the rules, but they certainly stretch the spirit of the rules. I don't know if there is any rule against "stalling tactics" but when you see it, it's so bush league (lol) there certainly should be some remedy against it. I've just never seen anything done about in a game...
Definitely against the spirit of the rules. Unfortunately not against the letter of the rules. I don't blame umps for not getting into the subjective part of it. Opens up a can of worms that they don't want/need.
It is annoying, but it is sweet when it backfires, i.e. a team stalls, unexpectedly falls behind, then runs out of time. It's funny watching them tell their players to all of a sudden hurry up after moving at a snail's pace.
Just freaking play ball and let the rest take care of itself. |
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gdad
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:41:52
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i know how to solve the stalling ,do away with the clock. |
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bstand
56 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:48:07
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If you were playing on the team that was "stalling" while winning, and the coach didn't stall, and lost the game, you would probably be upset that the coach mismanaged the game. I disagree with the idea that time management is cheating. Stalling or slowing the game down is the polar opposite of a coach who needs to speed the game up to try and get a last chance in before the game runs out of time. I think that is one of the manager's jobs. Time management. Sometimes you need to slow the game down so that the pitcher can get in rythym. Sometimes you just need to run the clock out so you can win. Regardless of the situation, time management isn't cheating. |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 11:33:22
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I to have seen several stalling tactics,like two years ago in the championship game of the (9U)usssa world series in mcdonuogh(?)The loosing (home)team had the three batters in the bottom of there line up strike out on purpose with 6 minutes left to try to get to the next inning and the top of their order,the other team (with the lead)refused to (play that kind of baseball)and make a pitching change with the lead which would have allowed the clock to run out thereby securring the world series championship. The game went to the next inning with less than a minute left and the team that was behind came back and won by 1 run. Who was right in this situation? was it cheating to strike out on purpose? quote: Originally posted by WJrWolverines
Stalling tactics.....I've seen Spring travel ball coaches do it in the Fall with their Rec team - pathetic.
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 13:50:35
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It's not cheating; it's winning in spite of your players. Time management is done in several ways. Umpires will cut down on the number of warm-up pitches for a pitchers’ second inning; teams that are losing won’t throw the ball around the infield after strike outs, courtesy runners for catchers, etc. I agree with bstand time management is not cheating but to have a player strike out intentionally is contrary to what we should be teaching. How can a Manager look a player in the eye and ask him to strike out (one of the most humbling aspects of the game) just so he can win the game?
I have had coaches stall against me and you yell to the Ump that they are stalling and the Ump will either move the game along or he won’t. Games with time limits invite stalling. I would prefer to just use the “run rule” to control game times. It’s funny we spend a lot of money and time practicing and preparing to play then we let the Umpire control how long we play.
Bill Clark Manager Collins Hill 14U “Silver” Eagles
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