| Author |
 Topic  |
|
in_the_know
985 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2015 : 12:19:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
And let's say frogs had wings.....in this baseball hotbed the chances of a high school coach being a complete moron are slim to none because the jobs are coveted. Also, if the coach was as described I don't think College Scouts would be talking to the guy about his opinion on a player, and therefor parents would have had the coach ousted years ago.
From your previous posts, I know you're not at the HS level with your son yet, but let me assure you, there are complete morons in every region coaching HS teams. For many reasons, behavior, inconsistent, lack of knowledge, inability to relate to generation, etc., etc. Don't think for a moment that these jobs are up for grabs every year and that AD's are scrutinizing this on a yearly basis. Parents aren't getting a whole lot of coaches "ousted" around here as you may seem to think is occurring. Listen to Bballman. He knows what he's talking about. The college coaches receive the same criticism as HS coaches. Clearly their employment is based on results, so their job is more akin to what you describe, but it's not parent's complaining doing a college coach in and he, more than anyone, realizes that over half of what is expressed is based on disgruntled players and parents over time on the field.
And as far as college scouts continuing to talk with these guys, here's another bit of info. The college recruiters don't give diddly about whether a HS coach is adored by his players and parents. Many of these guys have a long relationship going back to playing together, against one another, coaching regional/USA teams together, etc. They know and trust one another.
The one thing that will turn a college recruiter off on a HS coach is a lack of honesty about players skill and character. If a coach gets a reputation for overly inflating talent and a trend develops of his kids washing out at the next level, the HS coach will lose credibility with coaches and recruiters at the next level. Likewise if they cover up character and attitude flaws about players. The college level needs to be able to trust what they're hearing from HS coaches with regard to talent and attitude. Likewise HS coaches want to be able to show parents that they have these connections and relationships to help get their son to the next level. Most aren't willing to jeopardize these relationships and reputations they've built.
So please don't kid yourself that HS coaches who make complete arses of themselves and are deemed clueless by the booster club have one foot out the door. We see at minimum 3 or 4 a season, every season, often the same guys, who act or are complete tools who have no fear of their coaching position being taken.
Please chime back in after a few years of your son playing at HS and let me know if its changed. |
 |
|
|
BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 13:00:27
|
It is obvious to me that many of you are of the "what doesn't kill 'em makes 'em stronger" mindset. If the coach is a total jerk, deal with it, that's life. Don't get playtime no matter how hard you work, too bad. I see a lot of grand generalizations about coaches, high school programs, what recruiters look for...but there are way too many schools both HS and College that most of us do not experience to truly know all that goes on.
What seems to be forgotten here is that playing a sport is supposed to be FUN! When it stops being fun, it's time to stop playing. Yes it is hard work, sure you have to pay your dues, but in the end it should be an enjoyable experience.
The same posters here that say you shouldn't stop playing HS ball due to lack of playtime, are the same ones telling parents that if you kid isn't getting playtime on the travel team, it's time to look for a different team. If the team carries too large a squad, someone is just trying to make more money. Why is it OK for the HS's to behave this way? 20+ JV players and $1000+/player, and only half of which get decent playing time and only a 16 game season. Just because you get to wear your school's colors, does not support that practice.
I played HS and College varsity sports, I get what goes on, however, many of the justifications I read just don't add up. Unfortunately not every coach is out there with the best interest of the player and team at heart. We live in a highly competitive area, the coach had a plethora of talent to choose from, and yet the team is not having a successful season. It gives me reason to wonder about the quality of the coaching. |
|
|
|
CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 13:43:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
And let's say frogs had wings.....in this baseball hotbed the chances of a high school coach being a complete moron are slim to none because the jobs are coveted. Also, if the coach was as described I don't think College Scouts would be talking to the guy about his opinion on a player, and therefor parents would have had the coach ousted years ago.
From your previous posts, I know you're not at the HS level with your son yet, but let me assure you, there are complete morons in every region coaching HS teams. For many reasons, behavior, inconsistent, lack of knowledge, inability to relate to generation, etc., etc. Don't think for a moment that these jobs are up for grabs every year and that AD's are scrutinizing this on a yearly basis. Parents aren't getting a whole lot of coaches "ousted" around here as you may seem to think is occurring. Listen to Bballman. He knows what he's talking about. The college coaches receive the same criticism as HS coaches. Clearly their employment is based on results, so their job is more akin to what you describe, but it's not parent's complaining doing a college coach in and he, more than anyone, realizes that over half of what is expressed is based on disgruntled players and parents over time on the field.
And as far as college scouts continuing to talk with these guys, here's another bit of info. The college recruiters don't give diddly about whether a HS coach is adored by his players and parents. Many of these guys have a long relationship going back to playing together, against one another, coaching regional/USA teams together, etc. They know and trust one another.
The one thing that will turn a college recruiter off on a HS coach is a lack of honesty about players skill and character. If a coach gets a reputation for overly inflating talent and a trend develops of his kids washing out at the next level, the HS coach will lose credibility with coaches and recruiters at the next level. Likewise if they cover up character and attitude flaws about players. The college level needs to be able to trust what they're hearing from HS coaches with regard to talent and attitude. Likewise HS coaches want to be able to show parents that they have these connections and relationships to help get their son to the next level. Most aren't willing to jeopardize these relationships and reputations they've built.
So please don't kid yourself that HS coaches who make complete arses of themselves and are deemed clueless by the booster club have one foot out the door. We see at minimum 3 or 4 a season, every season, often the same guys, who act or are complete tools who have no fear of their coaching position being taken.
Please chime back in after a few years of your son playing at HS and let me know if its changed.
The post I was responding to put forth the premise that there was a High School coach who "knows very little about baseball is teaching the players the wrong things on the field" and would I let my kid play for them.
You contradicted yourself so much here I just don't even know how to respond...parents aren't getting coaches ousted, but coaches make it a priority to show parents they can get their kid to the next level.
You said most college recruiters and HS coaches have preexisting relationships that go back years that is based on being honest about a kids skill, talent and attitude, but if a coach gets a reputation for overly inflating talent and a trend develops of his kids washing out at the next level, which would be what happened if we relate back to the post I was addressing about the coach teaching the totally wrong things, how good would that relationship actually be between recruiter and HS coach?
So, I guess you are making my point for me that coaches who are not good at being a baseball coach have poor connections to college recruiters?
|
|
|
|
hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 14:22:08
|
Very well said, ITK.
I know a parent who was furious with a travelball coach for telling a few college coaches that a certain kid should probably go the JuCo route. He didn't say the kid couldn't play...he said the kid needed to get tons of outfield reps because he wouldn't play middle infield at the next level. It all boiled down to this give giving an HONEST assessment...and that's why scouts (college and pro) love and respect him. |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 14:40:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
What seems to be forgotten here is that playing a sport is supposed to be FUN! When it stops being fun, it's time to stop playing. Yes it is hard work, sure you have to pay your dues, but in the end it should be an enjoyable experience.
The same posters here that say you shouldn't stop playing HS ball due to lack of playtime, are the same ones telling parents that if you kid isn't getting playtime on the travel team, it's time to look for a different team.
HS is when the game changes. Pre-HS, go ahead and change teams if you're not playing. Even HS travel ball, you want to be playing. But for HS ball, it is all about winning. College ball, it is all about winning. If you're not having fun, don't play. But, don't expect it to be all fun when you get to college. It is extremely competitive. It is hard. It is a job. That's why I say, you can't just LIKE to play baseball if you want to play in college. You have to LOVE baseball to play in college. HS is just a taste of what it will be like in college. Take the best player from every team in the state. Those are the guys you will be competing against on your own team for play time in college. Unless you LOVE baseball, being on the field and competing, hanging out with your teammates, the whole experience of being a part of a baseball TEAM, it won't be fun and you will want to quit.
The HS team is the beginning of the next level of baseball. It is the real deal. It is about winning at the highest level. It is about competing for a spot on the field. It is about dealing with the personality of the coach that you have. And no matter how hard it is, you want to stay on the team and keep playing because you love baseball.
Not sure how else to put it. It is the reality of baseball. Agree with me or not, doesn't matter to me. I'm just telling you how it is. |
|
|
|
743
215 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 14:43:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
And let's say frogs had wings.....in this baseball hotbed the chances of a high school coach being a complete moron are slim to none because the jobs are coveted. Also, if the coach was as described I don't think College Scouts would be talking to the guy about his opinion on a player, and therefor parents would have had the coach ousted years ago.
From your previous posts, I know you're not at the HS level with your son yet, but let me assure you, there are complete morons in every region coaching HS teams. For many reasons, behavior, inconsistent, lack of knowledge, inability to relate to generation, etc., etc. Don't think for a moment that these jobs are up for grabs every year and that AD's are scrutinizing this on a yearly basis. Parents aren't getting a whole lot of coaches "ousted" around here as you may seem to think is occurring. Listen to Bballman. He knows what he's talking about. The college coaches receive the same criticism as HS coaches. Clearly their employment is based on results, so their job is more akin to what you describe, but it's not parent's complaining doing a college coach in and he, more than anyone, realizes that over half of what is expressed is based on disgruntled players and parents over time on the field.
And as far as college scouts continuing to talk with these guys, here's another bit of info. The college recruiters don't give diddly about whether a HS coach is adored by his players and parents. Many of these guys have a long relationship going back to playing together, against one another, coaching regional/USA teams together, etc. They know and trust one another.
The one thing that will turn a college recruiter off on a HS coach is a lack of honesty about players skill and character. If a coach gets a reputation for overly inflating talent and a trend develops of his kids washing out at the next level, the HS coach will lose credibility with coaches and recruiters at the next level. Likewise if they cover up character and attitude flaws about players. The college level needs to be able to trust what they're hearing from HS coaches with regard to talent and attitude. Likewise HS coaches want to be able to show parents that they have these connections and relationships to help get their son to the next level. Most aren't willing to jeopardize these relationships and reputations they've built.
So please don't kid yourself that HS coaches who make complete arses of themselves and are deemed clueless by the booster club have one foot out the door. We see at minimum 3 or 4 a season, every season, often the same guys, who act or are complete tools who have no fear of their coaching position being taken.
Please chime back in after a few years of your son playing at HS and let me know if its changed.
Great Post in_the_know I agree with what you said here, also Baseballmom6.
Now CoCa I think you have a great deal to learn about baseball in the next 4 or 5 years you will see.
|
|
|
|
in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 14:59:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
The post I was responding to put forth the premise that there was a High School coach who "knows very little about baseball is teaching the players the wrong things on the field" and would I let my kid play for them.
You contradicted yourself so much here I just don't even know how to respond...parents aren't getting coaches ousted, but coaches make it a priority to show parents they can get their kid to the next level.
You said most college recruiters and HS coaches have preexisting relationships that go back years that is based on being honest about a kids skill, talent and attitude, but if a coach gets a reputation for overly inflating talent and a trend develops of his kids washing out at the next level, which would be what happened if we relate back to the post I was addressing about the coach teaching the totally wrong things, how good would that relationship actually be between recruiter and HS coach?
So, I guess you are making my point for me that coaches who are not good at being a baseball coach have poor connections to college recruiters?
Contradictory is a stretch, but I suppose it's all in how you choose to interpret. My point is that parents aren't getting coaches ousted (unless they're being abusive or plain negligent). My later comment about getting players to the next level basically means that it's a feather in their cap and all HS coaches like to have that as some parents do shuffle in and out of districts just to play for certain programs. I don't see any coaches changing how they coach or approach parents or players to do this, but they do love to have a list of guys at the next level that they "take credit" for making happen. Some of these guys take great pride in their craft and work very hard to get their players at the next level, others not so much. I can tell you with great certainty that all of them have parents who will tell you that they're morons and other parents that are quite pleased with the same coach.
And I stand by my point about the relationships going back. The point is that coaches know one another and their reputations. As I stated a college coach doesn't care if a HS coach has a great rep with parents and players, but DOES care if he can believe that a coach is giving a fair and honest assessment of players that a school may pursue.
My point certainly wasn't "that coaches who are not good at being a baseball coach have poor connections to college recruiters", but rather that the criteria that PARENTS use to judge a baseball coach as being good or not is NOT the same criteria that the next level uses when seeking the input of these HS coaches when considering prospects playing for them. Hopefully that's more clear. |
|
|
|
CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 16:23:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Contradictory is a stretch, but I suppose it's all in how you choose to interpret. My point is that parents aren't getting coaches ousted (unless they're being abusive or plain negligent). My later comment about getting players to the next level basically means that it's a feather in their cap and all HS coaches like to have that as some parents do shuffle in and out of districts just to play for certain programs. I don't see any coaches changing how they coach or approach parents or players to do this, but they do love to have a list of guys at the next level that they "take credit" for making happen. Some of these guys take great pride in their craft and work very hard to get their players at the next level, others not so much. I can tell you with great certainty that all of them have parents who will tell you that they're morons and other parents that are quite pleased with the same coach.
And I stand by my point about the relationships going back. The point is that coaches know one another and their reputations. As I stated a college coach doesn't care if a HS coach has a great rep with parents and players, but DOES care if he can believe that a coach is giving a fair and honest assessment of players that a school may pursue.
My point certainly wasn't "that coaches who are not good at being a baseball coach have poor connections to college recruiters", but rather that the criteria that PARENTS use to judge a baseball coach as being good or not is NOT the same criteria that the next level uses when seeking the input of these HS coaches when considering prospects playing for them. Hopefully that's more clear.
As for parents judging how good/bad a baseball coach is at what he does...well I have met very few parents who sole criteria wouldn't be "how much did my kid play", so generally speaking I would think less than 10% of parents could honestly judge how well a coach is doing at being a coach, but there are the exceptions.
I am very spoiled in the location where I live that there are several very strong High School teams and very knowledgeable coaches. I've heard stories of coaches from the past, one in particular, that couldn't run a proper program, didn't have connections, and in short wasted a talented team and he lost his job due to parental pressure on the admin, that is where I got that tidbit of info. The high schools around me have multiple academy personnel manning the coaching staff, so I will admit I may not have an accurate view of the rest of the state, but near me the coaching staff seems to have a clue. |
|
|
|
BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2015 : 19:19:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
What seems to be forgotten here is that playing a sport is supposed to be FUN! When it stops being fun, it's time to stop playing. Yes it is hard work, sure you have to pay your dues, but in the end it should be an enjoyable experience.
The same posters here that say you shouldn't stop playing HS ball due to lack of playtime, are the same ones telling parents that if you kid isn't getting playtime on the travel team, it's time to look for a different team.
HS is when the game changes. Pre-HS, go ahead and change teams if you're not playing. Even HS travel ball, you want to be playing. But for HS ball, it is all about winning. College ball, it is all about winning. If you're not having fun, don't play. But, don't expect it to be all fun when you get to college. It is extremely competitive. It is hard. It is a job. That's why I say, you can't just LIKE to play baseball if you want to play in college. You have to LOVE baseball to play in college. HS is just a taste of what it will be like in college. Take the best player from every team in the state. Those are the guys you will be competing against on your own team for play time in college. Unless you LOVE baseball, being on the field and competing, hanging out with your teammates, the whole experience of being a part of a baseball TEAM, it won't be fun and you will want to quit.
The HS team is the beginning of the next level of baseball. It is the real deal. It is about winning at the highest level. It is about competing for a spot on the field. It is about dealing with the personality of the coach that you have. And no matter how hard it is, you want to stay on the team and keep playing because you love baseball.
Not sure how else to put it. It is the reality of baseball. Agree with me or not, doesn't matter to me. I'm just telling you how it is.
Bballman - I don't disagree with you. You really have to Love the game and the work it requires to go forward. My son's coach tells them they need to fall in love with the process if you want to keep going forward. I expect my player to have to work harder and be stronger if he wants to earn a place on the team and then continue that practice if he wants to earn a spot on the field. However, I disagree that HS is like the real world.
Most kids do not get to pick their HS, therefore they do not get to choose a program with which they are compatible. The do choose their College. A HS coach is a teacher first and a coach second, and like others mentioned, a couple losing seasons does not cost them their job. A college Coach is expected to win, and will likely lose their job if they don't produce the expected outcome.
I agree that HS Varsity should be all about the win. However, JV ball should be about developing your younger talent so they can become producers on Varsity as they go through the program. Otherwise, how do you build a winning Varsity program? |
|
|
|
Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2015 : 09:03:39
|
Some coaches just suck, like mean people.
|
|
|
|
aSouthPaw
23 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2015 : 08:25:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
What seems to be forgotten here is that playing a sport is supposed to be FUN! When it stops being fun, it's time to stop playing. Yes it is hard work, sure you have to pay your dues, but in the end it should be an enjoyable experience.
The same posters here that say you shouldn't stop playing HS ball due to lack of playtime, are the same ones telling parents that if you kid isn't getting playtime on the travel team, it's time to look for a different team.
HS is when the game changes. Pre-HS, go ahead and change teams if you're not playing. Even HS travel ball, you want to be playing. But for HS ball, it is all about winning. College ball, it is all about winning. If you're not having fun, don't play. But, don't expect it to be all fun when you get to college. It is extremely competitive. It is hard. It is a job. That's why I say, you can't just LIKE to play baseball if you want to play in college. You have to LOVE baseball to play in college. HS is just a taste of what it will be like in college. Take the best player from every team in the state. Those are the guys you will be competing against on your own team for play time in college. Unless you LOVE baseball, being on the field and competing, hanging out with your teammates, the whole experience of being a part of a baseball TEAM, it won't be fun and you will want to quit.
The HS team is the beginning of the next level of baseball. It is the real deal. It is about winning at the highest level. It is about competing for a spot on the field. It is about dealing with the personality of the coach that you have. And no matter how hard it is, you want to stay on the team and keep playing because you love baseball.
Not sure how else to put it. It is the reality of baseball. Agree with me or not, doesn't matter to me. I'm just telling you how it is.
I think bballman has some really good advice here and dealing with life lessons. I do wonder where the exceptions to the rule are. For example, what if you son is a top level pitcher and the HS baseball coach has a history of over-pitching? What if the coach verbally abuses players? Are these exceptions? Are there any others? |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2015 : 09:09:57
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by aSouthPawI do wonder where the exceptions to the rule are. For example, what if you son is a top level pitcher and the HS baseball coach has a history of over-pitching? What if the coach verbally abuses players? Are these exceptions? Are there any others?
Player safety is the one exception. Parents, especially parents of high level pitchers, should have an understanding with the coach about pitch counts. Talk with the coach about your expectations. If the coach has a history of over throwing pitchers, keep a pitch count yourself and if he exceeds those expectations, have a talk with the coach. If the coach continues to ignore this or if he flat out refuses to worry about a pitch count, pull your son. This is the one thing a parent should talk to the coach about - really anything health and safety related.
Verbal "abuse" is another issue. Kids need to learn to deal with people that are jerks. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a saying I grew up with and should be adhered to more these days. If you get to college, who knows what kind of coach you will get. Too many people are too sensitive and worried about being politically correct these days. Learn to deal with it, ignore it, tune it out, whatever - and just go out on the field and do your job. |
|
|
|
hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2015 : 10:26:17
|
| @bballman - I had several coaches who could have considered verbally abusive when I deserved it and I still have relationships with several of these men today. I didn't have a problem with it. |
Edited by - hshuler on 04/24/2015 10:35:45 |
|
|
|
Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2015 : 10:55:52
|
| I know one , he was ran out of his last position because the parents didn't like the way he treated their kids. They were competing for state championships.....It was a private school where parents use the good book to "validate/shield" their action to segregate their children from the lurid and dangerous public school system and buy into a winning program. |
Edited by - Critical Mass on 04/26/2015 13:28:51 |
|
|
|
ifly1989
771 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2015 : 16:57:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
What seems to be forgotten here is that playing a sport is supposed to be FUN! When it stops being fun, it's time to stop playing. Yes it is hard work, sure you have to pay your dues, but in the end it should be an enjoyable experience.
The same posters here that say you shouldn't stop playing HS ball due to lack of playtime, are the same ones telling parents that if you kid isn't getting playtime on the travel team, it's time to look for a different team.
HS is when the game changes. Pre-HS, go ahead and change teams if you're not playing. Even HS travel ball, you want to be playing. But for HS ball, it is all about winning. College ball, it is all about winning. If you're not having fun, don't play. But, don't expect it to be all fun when you get to college. It is extremely competitive. It is hard. It is a job. That's why I say, you can't just LIKE to play baseball if you want to play in college. You have to LOVE baseball to play in college. HS is just a taste of what it will be like in college. Take the best player from every team in the state. Those are the guys you will be competing against on your own team for play time in college. Unless you LOVE baseball, being on the field and competing, hanging out with your teammates, the whole experience of being a part of a baseball TEAM, it won't be fun and you will want to quit.
The HS team is the beginning of the next level of baseball. It is the real deal. It is about winning at the highest level. It is about competing for a spot on the field. It is about dealing with the personality of the coach that you have. And no matter how hard it is, you want to stay on the team and keep playing because you love baseball.
Not sure how else to put it. It is the reality of baseball. Agree with me or not, doesn't matter to me. I'm just telling you how it is.
GREAT POST!!!
This post describes my son exactly...
He got cut in HS but worked HARD and through travel ball was recruited and signed at a DII college. He was a red shirt his first year and continued to work hard. He is now a role player and does not get much playing time but he still is the hardest working kid on the team.
I often ask him why he keeps going....what drives him...he said he simply loves the game!! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Could this be the trend in 5 to 10 years for HS
