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OconeeCubs
24 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2013 : 10:53:16
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Here is scenario:
Batting 9 and only have 9 players
International Rule Tie Breaker
Last batted out, batter(4), to start on 2nd from previous inning is catcher
Therefor, we declare we would like to courtesy run for catcher to start inning with the previous batted out, out #2 of previous inning, batter(3)
Batter(5) starts the inning and grounds out to 2nd base and runner moves from 2nd to 3rd
Once batter(5) is declared out, we call time and then announce we would like to now have our last batted out(5) run at 3rd base for our catcher who is currently being courtesy ran for with batter(3)
Other coaches and umpires throw a fit and would not allow. Tournament director is called and would not allow. Finally calls state director and says it is within rules. Am I missing something here in the rule?
7.04.B
At any time, the offensive team may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and catcher of record the previous inning on defense. The courtesy runner must be a player not presently in the line-up. If no players not presently in the line-up are available, the courtesy runner shall be the player making the last batted out. The re-entry status of the courtesy runner, pitcher, and catcher shall not be affected by this rule. If at any time, a courtesy runner is determined to be ineligible, a proper replacement pursuant to these rules (if available) will be used without penalty. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 15:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by OconeeCubs
Once batter(5) is declared out, we call time and then announce we would like to now have our last batted out(5) run at 3rd base for our catcher who is currently being courtesy ran for with batter(3)
I don't know whether or not this is actually legal, but it sure sounds like you are stretching the rules!! Why don't you just leave batter 3 in to run? Technically, you are not courtesy running for the catcher, you are trying to courtesy run for the courtesy runner.
Sounds like a stretch to me. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 18:20:13
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It's the last batted out from the prior inning. You can't change to the next (now last) batted out. Same thing applies to pitcher and catcher of record. Consider that you plan to change pitchers in the bottom of the 4th. You're batting in the top of the 4th, and your Pitcher to be gets on base. You can't courtesy run for him because he's not the pitcher of record yet. Ditto for the catcher.
You're clearly off in your interpretation of the last batted out. Once your courtesy runner enters, he's it. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 18:53:40
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I re-read your post and see where the confusion is coming in. The "At any time" means that when he reaches based or any pitch thereafter. However, once you've inserted a courtesy runner, you no longer have the catcher or pitcher as the baserunner, so in effect, you can't now courtesy run for your courtesy runner because he's neither catcher nor pitcher.
If you had waited until your next batter batted out before inserting a courtesy runner for your catcher, then you would be correct, the batted out in that inning would be your last batted out, but once you've inserted the courtesy runner, the courtesy runner option would no longer be in effect.
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OconeeCubs
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 21:04:10
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I would have to disagree that is a stretch of the rules. As a matter of fact, it is a strategy. Our catcher is not a very good baserunner and our #5 batter is our best runner. I might addd the #5 runner scored on a passed ball with a bang bang play and we won with that run.....
The written rules ALLOW for a courtesy runner by the rules stated above for the pitcher or catcher of record. When you insert a courtesy runner, they are running for the SPOT IN THE LINEUP, not the person standing on the bag. Furthermore, and more importantly, I could have first called time, REINSERTED the catcher for the courtesy runner ("The re-entry status of the courtesy runner, pitcher, and catcher shall not be affected by this rule...") then called time and again have a courtesy runner for my catcher with the last batted out. There is no where it is stated nor implied that the courtesy runner must remain that person for the entirety of the inning. As a matter of fact, it clearly states that the re-entry status shall not be affected.........
As a former collegiate umpire, I take great pride in the knowledge of the rules. That being said, I can and DO make mistakes. If my application of the ruling is incorrect, I would like to see the ruling and any accompanying case book references to show otherwise. Perhaps it is clearly outlined elsewhere but MLB rules do not have courtesy runners so the only rule to go by is USSSA rule book and 7.04.B is the only one that covers the courtesy runner. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 22:43:29
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| If you use a courtesy runner for the pitcher or catcher, you haven't substituted for them, so I'm not sure how you're using the re-entry rule to put them back in for the runner. The re-entry bit is for the situation where you're not batting a continuous lineup with free defensive substitution. The point they're making is that in that case you haven't subbed for the pitcher/catcher by using a courtesy runner (otherwise, you could only do it once per game). |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 09:47:50
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OconeeCubs, I searched and found the NFHS (High School) rules on courtesy runners. You are correct in your first question. Here is the case rule I found in the NFHS rulebook:
"CR10 Situation: F2 singles and is replaced by courtesy runner. B2 walks. Before the next pitch, the courtesy runner is replaced by another courtesy runner. RULING: Legal. A courtesy runner may be replaced by another legal courtesy runner at any time."
I stand corrected. Learn something new every day!!
However, you made a comment in your second post that is not accurate, at least according to NFHS rules. You said you could reinsert the catcher for the courtesy runner. That is not OK in NFHS. Here is the case ruling on that:
"CR3 Situation: Coach of Team A sends out courtesy runner for F2 in the 3rd inning with one out. After the 2nd out, he sends F2 back out to run for himself. RULING: Illegal. Once the courtesy runner replaces F2, F2 cannot reenter for the courtesy runner in that half inning. However, in case of injury, with no other courtesy runners available F2 may reenter."
Keep in mind, there are all kinds of other rules specifying who courtesy runners can be. But they are all assuming that there are extra players on the bench. It sounds like, at least according to NFHS rules, what you did was legal within the guidelines of using last batted out.
I'm glad I looked this up. I really didn't know you could do that. |
Edited by - bballman on 10/31/2013 09:55:02 |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 13:15:53
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| Are y'all playing baseball or chess? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 19:36:38
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Not too many youth tournaments play by NFHS rules (in fact, I've never played in one that followed NFHS rule book).
It is interesting. I would have never guessed that this was a legal move. Good to know.
Of course, you'll always be at the mercy of what the umpire knows. I've seen so many not know the rules over the years who will incorrectly rule on something, at which point, that's it (unless you want to pull out a rule book, which is usually a quick trip to the parking lot). |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 21:36:10
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| FWIW, Triple Crown and other groups, at least at HS ages, normally play by NFHS rules, usually with additional modifications for pitching and bat rules (among other things). |
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OconeeCubs
24 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2013 : 17:44:24
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I apologize for not clarifying this was USSSA tournament. USSSA is governed by the MLB rule book if not otherwise clarified in the USSSA rules. Therefor, the above stated courtesy runner rule is from the USSSA rule book. What was done was well within the rules. I was not trying to bend or break the rules but rather use the ruels of the game to whatever advantage it may give a coach. No different than placing a time limit on games may cause a coach to use his trips to the mound or replace a pitcher or catcher to use timke so as to not have to play an additional inning and use more pitching or cost his team a loss etc. Why is it when a coach in football utilizes his timeouts or strategy to win a game he is a considered a good coach but when it is done in baseball it is "bush league?"
Plain and simple, it was a strategic move within the rules of the game. Thanks for the help guys as well as the NFHS ruling and case study. Unfortunately, NFHS is the most different of all baseball rules. Ask any umpire......they prefer MLB and NCAA rules over NFHS rules. Likewise, that is why I enjoy USSSA as they follow MLB rules unless otherwise noted. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2013 : 13:58:48
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Oconee, first of all, I didn't hear anyone say what you did was "bush league". I personally said I thought it was a stretch of the rules. Secondly, I don't see where what you are doing is "well within the rules". I may be wrong, but from what you are saying, it isn't all that clear to me.
If you are using MLB rules, it doesn't help with this situation at all. MLB rules allow for no courtesy runners and there are no substitution allowances. You take a guy out for a pinch runner, he is done. The pinch runner does not go back in the game defensively, he is done. Therefore, the only rule you have to go by is the USSSA rule 7.04.B rule you quoted. I think the statement "At any time" is up for interpretation. I take that to mean as, at any time during the game, the pitcher or catcher can have a courtesy runner run for them. NFHS rules may be more different than any other baseball rules, but they are much more clear on this issue than USSSA.
I looked through the USSSA rulebook and you are correct, 7.04.B is the only rule relating to this. I just don't see it as all that clear in terms of your situation. Maybe there are case rulings or instructions given to USSSA umpires that we are not privy to that makes this a more cut and dried issue. I just don't see it as all that clear with just 7.04.B as the basis for the action.
Maybe there are some USSSA umpires reading that can pipe in. Not trying to minimize your qualifications as an umpire or a coach. That's just how I see it. I have been involved with youth, HS and now college baseball for about 14 years now and have never personally seen the courtesy runner rule interpreted or used in that way. When it comes down to it, I could be wrong as well. |
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Courtesy Runner
