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NukeLaLoosh
13 Posts |
 Posted - 11/03/2012 : 23:49:24
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Tournament rules
Division Seeding
1. Record
2. Head-to-Head (if only two teams tied)
3. Runs Allowed
4. Run Differential (+/- 8 runs/game)
5. Coin Flip
Team A Loses to another team 7-1
Team A beats Team B 10-3
Team B Wins to another team 10-0
Team B loses to Team A 3-10
Four teams finish 1-1. The two other teams did not play Team A or B. One team is in based on runs allowed. One team is clearly out based on runs allowed. Based on tourney rules, how would you seed Team A and Team B. Who would be higher seed and how would you determine it? |
Edited by - NukeLaLoosh on 11/03/2012 23:55:41 |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2012 : 21:27:40
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| Which team is the TD's relative on?! |
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baseball papa
123 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:08:33
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Papa wanted to answer this the other day but I thought it might be a trick question and that I would look stupid with the wrong answer but at my age who gives a heck.
Record: 4 teams at 1-1
Head to Head: Out since more than 2 teams tied
Runs Allowed: Team A allows 10 and Team B allows 10 (tie)
Run Differential: Team A has a +1 and Team B has a +3
Coin Flip Not needed
Team B is higher seed based on the +3 run differential.
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:21:15
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| The run differential is +1 for both. |
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Enine
66 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 08:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by baseball papa
Papa wanted to answer this the other day but I thought it might be a trick question and that I would look stupid with the wrong answer but at my age who gives a heck.
Record: 4 teams at 1-1
Head to Head: Out since more than 2 teams tied
Runs Allowed: Team A allows 10 and Team B allows 10 (tie)
Run Differential: Team A has a +1 and Team B has a +3
Coin Flip Not needed
Team B is higher seed based on the +3 run differential.
Papa, you missed the max +/- 8 runs/game. Team A is +1 (-6 + +7) and Team B is also +1 (+8 + -7).
Coin flip. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 09:41:37
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Since more than two teams are tied, you throw out head to head as the tie breaker (per the rules).
So, you move down the list in order.
1. Record - Tied (4 teams) move to 2
2. Head to Head (more than two teams, move to 3
3. Runs allowed: Team A RA=10 ; Team B RA=10, move to 4
4. Run Differential Capped at 8 per game: Team A had diffs of -6 & +7 for a net of +1; Team B had diffs of
+8 (+10 actual) & -7, for a net of +1. Tied, so move to 5
5. Coin Flip
There's your final answer. Teams A & B would flip a coin (per the rules) to decide the seeding between the two teams based on your description above.
So, what was done? Is this how it was handled?
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NukeLaLoosh
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 12:55:35
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Team A and Team B were battling for the last spot in Championship bracket. The TD went to coin flip with Team B (also host team) winning flip. Team A wasn't at coin flip late Saturday night. When I heard it, I couldn't believe it since they were playing for spot in bracket and Team A beating Team B handily.
Team A went on to win consultation bracket by outscoring opponents 18-1. Team B lost next game. 9-1. |
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baseball papa
123 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 13:08:54
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And that why Papa is not a math major.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 13:48:55
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Assuming that the toss was done on the up and up, then it was as the rules stated in advance, so not much to complain about, regardless of the outcome for both teams the remainder of the way.
Like it or not, when you have more than two teams tied, and they didn't play the same opponents, it simply isn't fair to use the head to head since strength of schedule between the four tied teams isn't the same.
Pretty much any time a coin toss is used to decide something, someone isn't going to be pleased with the outcome. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 13:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by NukeLaLoosh
Team A and Team B were battling for the last spot in Championship bracket. The TD went to coin flip with Team B (also host team) winning flip. Team A wasn't at coin flip late Saturday night. When I heard it, I couldn't believe it since they were playing for spot in bracket and Team A beating Team B handily.
Team A went on to win consultation bracket by outscoring opponents 18-1. Team B lost next game. 9-1.
Host team won the flip? How convenient. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 17:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by NukeLaLoosh
Team A and Team B were battling for the last spot in Championship bracket. The TD went to coin flip with Team B (also host team) winning flip. Team A wasn't at coin flip late Saturday night.
Why wasn't Team A there?
Were there any neutral observers?
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bball1010
63 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 17:54:56
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| I find the coin flip ridiculous. There are a number of other tiebreakers that are actually based on team performance that could have been used prior to coin flip such as runs scored. Tournaments need to revisit these rules going forward, i.e. a coin flip should NOT be one of the top 5 tiebreakers. That's a joke. |
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NukeLaLoosh
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 21:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by NukeLaLoosh
Team A and Team B were battling for the last spot in Championship bracket. The TD went to coin flip with Team B (also host team) winning flip. Team A wasn't at coin flip late Saturday night.
Why wasn't Team A there?
Were there any neutral observers?
The last game ended late on Saturday and Team A played earlier in the day. I would like to believe that the coin flip was on the up and up. I don't think anyone would be that low. |
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NukeLaLoosh
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 21:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bball1010
I find the coin flip ridiculous. There are a number of other tiebreakers that are actually based on team performance that could have been used prior to coin flip such as runs scored. Tournaments need to revisit these rules going forward, i.e. a coin flip should NOT be one of the top 5 tiebreakers. That's a joke.
It blew me away when I heard how the decision was made. I looked at USSSA rules and that is how they determine ties as well. Based on the rules and how everyone interpreted the rules here, the TD made the right call. I agree, there has to be a better way. Even in the four way tie, it makes sense to me that you would go back to the head to head if the last two teams played each other before you would use the coin flip. That is how NFL, MLB, etc does it. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2012 : 22:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by NukeLaLoosh
quote:
Originally posted by bball1010
I find the coin flip ridiculous. There are a number of other tiebreakers that are actually based on team performance that could have been used prior to coin flip such as runs scored. Tournaments need to revisit these rules going forward, i.e. a coin flip should NOT be one of the top 5 tiebreakers. That's a joke.
It blew me away when I heard how the decision was made. I looked at USSSA rules and that is how they determine ties as well. Based on the rules and how everyone interpreted the rules here, the TD made the right call. I agree, there has to be a better way. Even in the four way tie, it makes sense to me that you would go back to the head to head if the last two teams played each other before you would use the coin flip. That is how NFL, MLB, etc does it.
So it sounds like everything was on the up and up. Too bad for the team that didn't make the top bracket, but at least they finished well.
They will probably have a choice whether or not to play in that TD's tournament again. If they didn't like the way things went down, they can stay away. |
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C. MORTON
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2012 : 14:28:02
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| If Team A beat Team B why wouldn't Team A be the higher seed with head to head? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2012 : 15:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by C. MORTON
If Team A beat Team B why wouldn't Team A be the higher seed with head to head?
Because 4 teams were tied, not just the two teams. If more than two teams are tied, head to head are not used. It's also clearly stated as such in the tie-break rules he posted.
Even if you use the other tie-breaks to get to the two teams, unless all teams played the same opponents, it's not a fair method since playing different opponents would impact record, runs allowed, etc. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 03:32:12
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by C. MORTON
If Team A beat Team B why wouldn't Team A be the higher seed with head to head?
Because 4 teams were tied, not just the two teams. If more than two teams are tied, head to head are not used. It's also clearly stated as such in the tie-break rules he posted.
You are very correct in that the rule is the rule so nobody can complain that participated in that tournament...HOWEVER....the fair way to do it, and the way that you should get accustomed to when your son gets to High School and above....is using an elimination system that reverts back to the top.
Using the OP's scenario it would go like this....
Teams A, B, C, and D tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Teams A, B, C, and D did not play each other so Rule 2 is out.
Team D allowed more runs than A, B, or C so Team D is eliminated.
Now, back to the top....
Teams A, B, and C tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Teams A, B, and C did not play each other so Rule 2 is out.
Teams A & B both allowed 10 runs and Team C allowed less than 10 so Team C advances while A and B are still tied for the final spot.
And, back to the top we go again....
Team A and B tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Team A defeated Team B so Team B is eliminated and Team A advances
In GHSA, GISA and NCAA (and others, I am sure) this is the way it works.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Even if you use the other tie-breaks to get to the two teams, unless all teams played the same opponents, it's not a fair method since playing different opponents would impact record, runs allowed, etc.
I respectfully disagree. The way I described above is way more fair and the OPs scenario is Case and Point. In my opinion, any tie breaker that allows Team A to be eliminated with a win against Team B while Team B advances is simply unfair.
Of course, this is just one man's opinion. I am sure the sanctioning bodies have people way smarter than me that help them decide what is best for the kids.
--T
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 09:10:59
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quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
quote:
Originally posted by C. MORTON
If Team A beat Team B why wouldn't Team A be the higher seed with head to head?
Because 4 teams were tied, not just the two teams. If more than two teams are tied, head to head are not used. It's also clearly stated as such in the tie-break rules he posted.
You are very correct in that the rule is the rule so nobody can complain that participated in that tournament...HOWEVER....the fair way to do it, and the way that you should get accustomed to when your son gets to High School and above....is using an elimination system that reverts back to the top.
Using the OP's scenario it would go like this....
Teams A, B, C, and D tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Teams A, B, C, and D did not play each other so Rule 2 is out.
Team D allowed more runs than A, B, or C so Team D is eliminated.
Now, back to the top....
Teams A, B, and C tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Teams A, B, and C did not play each other so Rule 2 is out.
Teams A & B both allowed 10 runs and Team C allowed less than 10 so Team C advances while A and B are still tied for the final spot.
And, back to the top we go again....
Team A and B tied so Rule 1 doesn't work.
Team A defeated Team B so Team B is eliminated and Team A advances
In GHSA, GISA and NCAA (and others, I am sure) this is the way it works.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Even if you use the other tie-breaks to get to the two teams, unless all teams played the same opponents, it's not a fair method since playing different opponents would impact record, runs allowed, etc.
I respectfully disagree. The way I described above is way more fair and the OPs scenario is Case and Point. In my opinion, any tie breaker that allows Team A to be eliminated with a win against Team B while Team B advances is simply unfair.
Of course, this is just one man's opinion. I am sure the sanctioning bodies have people way smarter than me that help them decide what is best for the kids.
--T
But Tony, isn't their record based on their in region schedule, of which each team in region plays every other team? In that case, every team played all like opponents, so you can do this. In this case, it's an equal playing field that is being used to determine seedings.
In an open pool schedule as is used in most tournaments, not all teams play like opponents. As an example, the four teams mentioned by the OP didn't all play one another. So team A may have played 2 AAA level teams and team B may have played two Majors. So, in that case, and as mentioned in my previous post, the "unbalanced" schedule likely impacted the record, differential, runs allowed, etc.
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 10:53:01
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| That's called luck of the draw. In every tournament some teams will have to play better teams and some teams get lucky and don't. I think after runs allowed, you should use runs scored as a tie breaker. There's no difference in fairness as far as runs allowed vs. runs scored because every team cannot play the exact same teams to make it fair. The only reason I could not see them use runs scored is as a coach you would have to run up the score every game in pool, but I'm sure some coaches would not have a problem with that. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 11:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
But Tony, isn't their record based on their in region schedule, of which each team in region plays every other team? In that case, every team played all like opponents, so you can do this. In this case, it's an equal playing field that is being used to determine seedings.
In an open pool schedule as is used in most tournaments, not all teams play like opponents. As an example, the four teams mentioned by the OP didn't all play one another. So team A may have played 2 AAA level teams and team B may have played two Majors. So, in that case, and as mentioned in my previous post, the "unbalanced" schedule likely impacted the record, differential, runs allowed, etc.
Yes, you are correct about the region schedule, but this is based on the assumption that all regions are equal...and I think we can agree that is rarely the case. There is always going to be that one region that is loaded with talent and that one region that struggles just to compete. I am seeing it right now in football. The 4 seed team (6-2) destroys the 1 seed from another region (8-0) by a score of 55-6 and everyone in the state knew it was going to happen ahead of time. The 1 seed was from a very weak region while the 4 seed was from a region that is stacked. What makes it even worse, is that from year to year this could change based on the individual talent within the region.
ITK...I really do understand your position. My problem, using your scenario from above, is even if Team B played MAJ teams and Team A played AAA teams....Team A DEFEATED Team B...and in the end there is no fair way that Team B could advance while Team A gets eliminated.
Just my $.02.
--T
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 11:15:44
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
That's called luck of the draw. In every tournament some teams will have to play better teams and some teams get lucky and don't. I think after runs allowed, you should use runs scored as a tie breaker. There's no difference in fairness as far as runs allowed vs. runs scored because every team cannot play the exact same teams to make it fair. The only reason I could not see them use runs scored is as a coach you would have to run up the score every game in pool, but I'm sure some coaches would not have a problem with that.
Bama...I don't think you will find more than a handful of people who will ever agree with that. You are starting to get into the mental aspect of the game. I would never subject a 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 year old kid to the feeling of worthlessness that would come when a superior opponent puts 30 runs each inning on you because they are nervous about another superior team on another field and the tie breaking scenarios that may come. I am afraid that could end up with young players completely leaving the game and never coming back and that is just not acceptable to me.
Again...just my $.02.
--T
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 14:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
But Tony, isn't their record based on their in region schedule, of which each team in region plays every other team? In that case, every team played all like opponents, so you can do this. In this case, it's an equal playing field that is being used to determine seedings.
In an open pool schedule as is used in most tournaments, not all teams play like opponents. As an example, the four teams mentioned by the OP didn't all play one another. So team A may have played 2 AAA level teams and team B may have played two Majors. So, in that case, and as mentioned in my previous post, the "unbalanced" schedule likely impacted the record, differential, runs allowed, etc.
Yes, you are correct about the region schedule, but this is based on the assumption that all regions are equal...and I think we can agree that is rarely the case. There is always going to be that one region that is loaded with talent and that one region that struggles just to compete. I am seeing it right now in football. The 4 seed team (6-2) destroys the 1 seed from another region (8-0) by a score of 55-6 and everyone in the state knew it was going to happen ahead of time. The 1 seed was from a very weak region while the 4 seed was from a region that is stacked. What makes it even worse, is that from year to year this could change based on the individual talent within the region.
ITK...I really do understand your position. My problem, using your scenario from above, is even if Team B played MAJ teams and Team A played AAA teams....Team A DEFEATED Team B...and in the end there is no fair way that Team B could advance while Team A gets eliminated.
Just my $.02.
--T
I completely get your point, and would normally let this die, except I'm enjoying discussing it, so here goes . . .
You're correct, regions aren't equal, and I'm not assuming they are. What is being done is seeding the teams WITHIN each region, and those teams have played an identically balanced schedule since they all played each other and the record being used to seed (including head-to-head if a tiebreak is needed) is that very record. Once seeded, they play outside of their region and if they get demolished because they're a weak region, so be it and let the better team win. But the fact remains, seeding inside a region using their region records is a completely fair and equitable way to seed those teams.
My point is this. Assume this:
Team A (major)
Team B (major)
Team Z (AA)
Team Y (AA)
Team R (Major)
Team S (Major)
Team A plays B, Z & Y and throws their ace against B and their lesser pitchers against Z & Y because they can and still win.
Team B plays A, R & S. They have to throw their 1 and 2 against R & S and only have their 3 to throw against Team A, their only loss.
My point is that using head to head is not a reflection of A vs B, nor is it really fair as a means of determining a tie break in this instance. Had Team A played R & S the two teams may likely not even be tied. Not that coin toss is much better, but at least Team B is not punished for the "luck of the draw".
Not too long ago, pools were setup so that each team played the other teams in their pool, then only the top one or two teams from the pool advanced. You could argue that some of the pools were unfair, but at least you knew what you had to do and who to beat to move on. Now the pools themselves are meaningless and all anyone really cares about is A) winning the game and B) doing so achieving the max differential allowed and as few runs as possible.
As a coach, think of how differently you manage a pool game vs. bracket. In pool you're concerned with the points above. In bracket, you don't care if you win 21-20 or 1-0, just win.
Anyway, it's a dead horse and I understand what you're saying, I just wanted to clarify that using head-to-head between tied teams is meaningful and fair if the schedule between the teams has been identical. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 14:22:33
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| I don't agree with running up the score either, but that's why we have different classifications ie: A,AA,AAA,Major to try and put evenly matched teams against each other. As far as getting rolled I would bet that every kid at some time or another has been run ruled. I just believe that if your team can hit, you should be rewarded for it. Hitting is contageous, you may score 1 run one game and 15 the next and it may not be because the pitcher was any worse or better than the other game. From my experience, and I know that runs scored is not a factor, most coaches will still run up the score. Personally, I don't necessarily blame them because how do you tell a kid not to play hard and give it all you got. It's a fine line. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 16:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
I completely get your point, and would normally let this die, except I'm enjoying discussing it, so here goes . . .
And I totally get yours, as well, but today I am basically trapped in a room waiting for a flight with nothing else to do...and this is fun ;)
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
You're correct, regions aren't equal, and I'm not assuming they are. What is being done is seeding the teams WITHIN each region, and those teams have played an identically balanced schedule since they all played each other and the record being used to seed (including head-to-head if a tiebreak is needed) is that very record. Once seeded, they play outside of their region and if they get demolished because they're a weak region, so be it and let the better team win. But the fact remains, seeding inside a region using their region records is a completely fair and equitable way to seed those teams.
My point is this. Assume this:
Team A (major)
Team B (major)
Team Z (AA)
Team Y (AA)
Team R (Major)
Team S (Major)
Team A plays B, Z & Y and throws their ace against B and their lesser pitchers against Z & Y because they can and still win.
Team B plays A, R & S. They have to throw their 1 and 2 against R & S and only have their 3 to throw against Team A, their only loss.
You are now getting into the talent levels on the teams and away from the record. There are just way too many outside influences to start going down the road of who pitched what "Ace" to let that affect who advances and who is eliminated. What if Team B's #1 has a bad day that day and ends up giving up 8 runs and still wins? It happens. In my opinion I don't think we can take into account individual performances in setting the rules for seeding.
To further illustrate my point...what about the 5 Seed from the Strong Region? Based on your performance indicators, in the case of a tie the rule should allow them to take the spot of the 4 Seed from the Weak Region because they did not have to play the same level of talent. I am not seriously giving this any merit, just using it to illustrate a point...see where I am going with this? Teams can only play the games that are on their schedule. It is their job to win them, and in this case, to allow as few points as possible.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
My point is that using head to head is not a reflection of A vs B
And this is where we differ. I think it is ALWAYS the case.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Had Team A played R & S the two teams may likely not even be tied.
Again, I don't think the rules can be based on what "likely" would happen.
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Not that coin toss is much better, but at least Team B is not punished for the "luck of the draw".
Luck of the Draw...Luck of the Flip. At some point luck will alwaysw come into play as long as you play sports ;)
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
As a coach.....
Until now I have been explaining myself based on how I would do it if I made the rules...but, since you brought it up, let me explain it to you as a coach. Since the dawn of sports, Coaches have been teaching players the slogans we have always heard "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME", "TO THE VICTOR GO THE SPOILS", "WINNING ISN'T EVERYTHING..ITS THE ONLY THING"...and I could go on and on. We teach the boys that in sports, like as in life, the most important thing is to FINISH. In the end, just win the game. The hardest thing to explain to a young player is how we can be tied with Team B, have beaten Team B, and yet Team B advances and we are eliminated. Inevitably the child will ask "Why?" and when the Coach responds with "They played better teams than we did" I guarantee that the child will respond "But that's not our fault".
Again, just my $.02. I could be wrong ;)
--T
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2012 : 16:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
I don't agree with running up the score either, but that's why we have different classifications ie: A,AA,AAA,Major to try and put evenly matched teams against each other.
Bama...this original discussion was based on an OPEN tournament, but even in your case there can be a TON of difference in a High Level MAJ team and Low Level MAJ team (or AAA, AA, Rec, etc)
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
As far as getting rolled I would bet that every kid at some time or another has been run ruled.
I agree...but getting run ruled is one thing...losing 30-0 in 3 innings is totally different.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
I just believe that if your team can hit, you should be rewarded for it. Hitting is contageous, you may score 1 run one game and 15 the next and it may not be because the pitcher was any worse or better than the other game.
I agree 1000%. This is why RF should not be in the equation.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
From my experience, and I know that runs scored is not a factor, most coaches will still run up the score.
I know that since I am a coach you may not believe me, but I really think this happens WAY less than what you may think. I can assure you that I do not know any coaches that will do this on purpose, but I know plenty that would if the rules made it advantageous to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
Personally, I don't necessarily blame them because how do you tell a kid not to play hard and give it all you got. It's a fine line.
You NEVER tell a kid not to play hard but there are literally thousands of ways for a Coach to prevent the score from being run up while still teaching the kids the correct way to play the game.
--T
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How would you seed these two teams for bracket
