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rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2012 : 20:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Thanks Title IX!!!
Don't even get me started.
Wow. That says a lot about you and the rest who have made similar comments.
I was pretty much pre title 9. I played bc I loved it. My dad paid tuition to an expensive but very reputable university so I could play there. I had a teensy scholarship and if it hadn't been for my academics, I couldn't have ever gone to school there.
Y'all better rethink your comments. Earning your way always trumps being given everything. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2012 : 22:18:28
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| What does earning something have to do with anything??? You don't think working hard for a scholarship is earning it? You think getting a scholarship is not earning something? I understand different people have different opinions about Title IX, but I'm not sure I get the earning part of your comment. I don't want to get into a debate about Title IX, but please explain this to me. |
Edited by - bballman on 10/12/2012 22:41:10 |
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BuzzDad
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2012 : 23:46:33
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| My experience has been that it depends on which school the recruiter works for. Average players are not going to play in the ACC or SEC. Kids without the grades aren't going to play in the Ivy League. It is all about winning at the high level. I have one son who was the straight A student above-average (not elite) player. It was tough to find a school that was affordable (how much do you want to pay for your son to continue his baseball career vs. affordable UGA or GT with good education), and somewhere you wanted your son to get a degree from. The top programs have some flexibility to take almost anyone they really want though of course their preference is elite player with 3.0 and 1000 SAT. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2012 : 14:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
What does earning something have to do with anything??? You don't think working hard for a scholarship is earning it? You think getting a scholarship is not earning something? I understand different people have different opinions about Title IX, but I'm not sure I get the earning part of your comment. I don't want to get into a debate about Title IX, but please explain this to me.
Your comment about title 9 makes it sound like women are taking away money that used to be there.
My comment is you have to love it and earn it/both academically and athletically. That's all. Sorry if that was unclear. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2012 : 15:12:42
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I have no problem with women playing and getting scholarships to play college sports. I have a problem with women's sports coming up with random sports programs just because there must be an equal amount for both. I have heard stories about women being offered full scholarships in sports they have never even played before because the school HAD to fill a team, even though they didn't have enough women to fill a roster. I would say that is not earning something. Then you have schools dropping men's programs because they don't have enough interest in women's programs to keep things even. There are no wrestling programs in the south east or in much of the country for this reason.
Should women have the opportunity to earn a scholarship to play collegiate sports? Absolutely. Should there be a LAW to mandate that men and women have an equal number of scholarships, regardless of the demand? Debatable.
I feel the same way about racial quotas though. It's not just a gender issue for me.
This leads us into a whole different thread though. I've said my piece, with all due respect to your views, Rippit, maybe someone could start a new thread on this and I'll just sit back and read. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2012 : 15:25:29
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I don't see how title IX makes any sense at all for a university athletic department..... Anyone ever seen the turnout at a women's soccer or lacrosse game?? Or women's rowing?? I dont see how a school can think giving those scholarships out is in any way profitable. JMO
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Edited by - Spartan4 on 10/13/2012 17:07:51 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2012 : 19:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I have no problem with women playing and getting scholarships to play college sports. I have a problem with women's sports coming up with random sports programs just because there must be an equal amount for both. I have heard stories about women being offered full scholarships in sports they have never even played before because the school HAD to fill a team, even though they didn't have enough women to fill a roster. I would say that is not earning something. Then you have schools dropping men's programs because they don't have enough interest in women's programs to keep things even. There are no wrestling programs in the south east or in much of the country for this reason.
Should women have the opportunity to earn a scholarship to play collegiate sports? Absolutely. Should there be a LAW to mandate that men and women have an equal number of scholarships, regardless of the demand? Debatable.
I feel the same way about racial quotas though. It's not just a gender issue for me.
This leads us into a whole different thread though. I've said my piece, with all due respect to your views, Rippit, maybe someone could start a new thread on this and I'll just sit back and read.
Amen! |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2012 : 22:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
I don't see how title IX makes any sense at all for a university athletic department..... Anyone ever seen the turnout at a women's soccer or lacrosse game?? Or women's rowing?? I dont see how a school can think giving those scholarships out is in any way profitable. JMO
If it was all about profits, we'd have football, and maybe a somewhat smaller men's basketball system, and that's about it, though. |
Edited by - jacjacatk on 10/13/2012 22:42:14 |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2012 : 11:05:46
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In general, quota systems do nothing but lower the bar for all. Merit systems that seek out diversity typically promote excellence. College s/b all about getting kids ready to be productive members of society.
I run a decent size national company (we have around 4,000 employees) and when I am recruiting for leadership positions and all else is equal, there are two things on the resume that separate one candidate from another. Playing a sport in h/s or college or leadership in the military. This has nothing to do with the fact that my kid is an athlete or that my dad was in the military, its because these candidates are superior employees because they are equipped with a unique skill set that required dedication and hard-work with a team approach.
So I look at title IX a bit differently. I see it as a well intentioned idea with unintended negative consequences. I fully support collegiate women athletes because I think the athletic college experience helps insure more productive members in society that IMO are desperately needed in todays world. But title IX actually "takes away" that opportunity from some deserving athletes and gives it to others and that's why it is a failure.
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 14:01:53
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My Time at Band Camp...I had a 3.97 GPA back when you could not get above a 4.0. I had 40-50 letters from colleges interested. Here is my 10 cents.
1. A better player ALWAYS wins. Sorry them's the apples.
2. The only time grades matter are in 2 cases
(Eligibility and B and C's are fine)
(Academic scholarships to free up baseball scholarship)
University ot TN Knoxville was going to put me on their Whiddle scholarship (Academic) to free up another full ride for the team.
Take the SAT's early and often. I made a 1260 in my Sophomore year, and didn't take them again. I remember Dartmouth contacting me and asking me to take them again...I kind of chuckled at them.
Odds are 99% you won't get any money for school. Increase you odds by attending all baseball camps at that school over the summer, writing the coach letters (email I guess in today's world haha). Tryout for the Jr Olympics etc. Build your baseball resume.
What baseball can do is get you into a school you have no business getting into. If you have average grades, the coach can get you into a school, and offer you a walk on chance.
99% of you should focus on this. Use baseball to get your kids into a better school for getting a higher quality education. If you get money, great, but don't count on it. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2012 : 14:04:25
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On title 9....It is great, just remove any athletic program producing profit from the equations. Football and basketball (for some schools)...Then make them equal. Since all other sports lose money I think that would be fair.
On the other side, if your womens' soccer team is profitable, then remove those #'s from the equation as well. In essence you can give a billion scholarships if the sport produces profit. Otherwise it goes into the Title 9 pool.
FYI, my daughter is a beast at underwater basket weaving. FULL RIDE!!! |
Edited by - peashooter on 10/22/2012 15:13:26 |
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kidsgame
35 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2012 : 13:43:55
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Although this is wildly off subject at this point, I just wanted to point out that some of the comments on this thread, while entertaining, fail to recognize that women's collegiate sports have a value to society in general which may not be measured/reflected by the income generated by that sport for the college. There is a real value associated with young women (including your daughters), as well as young men, competing in athletic sports in college. It's a college team, not a professional sports team. Thank you to the person who stated that this is something he looks for on resumes.
As Rippit put so well, practice / hardwork, good attitude, good character, etc., are the cost of "earning" good grades, a scholarship, etc. for our athletes, whether boy or girl.
And, a shout out to my fellow moms who are athletic, competitive, knowledgable and have so much to add to this sport that we all love. We are typically working behind the scenes to support our sons and all of the absolutely wonderful coaches who put so much time and heart into creating a successful season and experience for our kids. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2012 : 14:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kidsgame
Although this is wildly off subject at this point, I just wanted to point out that some of the comments on this thread, while entertaining, fail to recognize that women's collegiate sports have a value to society in general which may not be measured/reflected by the income generated by that sport for the college. There is a real value associated with young women (including your daughters), as well as young men, competing in athletic sports in college. It's a college team, not a professional sports team. Thank you to the person who stated that this is something he looks for on resumes.
As Rippit put so well, practice / hardwork, good attitude, good character, etc., are the cost of "earning" good grades, a scholarship, etc. for our athletes, whether boy or girl.
And, a shout out to my fellow moms who are athletic, competitive, knowledgable and have so much to add to this sport that we all love. We are typically working behind the scenes to support our sons and all of the absolutely wonderful coaches who put so much time and heart into creating a successful season and experience for our kids.
Great call. Not every (actually not any, this is supposed to be school, right) sport should require a National Championship played in some exotic locale, or holiday tournaments, or road trips that can't be made by bus, or require 6 months of the school year.
You're not going to put the genie back in the bottle though, so unfortunately, you're arguing about $'s and cents and not the more qualitative benefits of the "minor" sports. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2012 : 14:39:37
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| I don't care about how much money the programs make. Other than football and basketball in the big colleges, none of the programs - male or female - make money. My problem is with boys programs being cut or reduced because they can't find enough girls programs to balance things out. Or filling up girls programs with girls who have never done the sport before because they have to meet a quota. You have boys who have worked their butts off in wrestling for 4 years of HS and several years before who cannot reasonably wrestle in college in Georgia or the Southeast because all the schools cut this program out. If the school put this program in, they would have to come up with girls sports to balance it out. At the same time, the school is giving girls full scholarships for the skulling team who have never sat in a boat before. They didn't earn the scholarship, they just walked into it so there would be a balance of scholarships offered. Meanwhile the wrestlers are just out of luck even though they may have earned something. Therein lies my objections. All for girls playing collegiate sports, as long as there are enough girls to play the sports. Not for inventing sports just to meet a quota or recruiting players who have never played the sport just to fill a quota. Many times at the expense of a male athelete who has worked hard at their sport but with no opportunity to move on because of Title IX. |
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neverquit
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 08:58:29
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| Title 9 seems to be only enforced from the femaile side i.e. UGA Athletics. There is Equestrian,Soccer,volleyball and gymnastics for women but no mens teams. Equestrian scholarships really? I bet that brings in the big buck and turns a profit. UGA has approx. 40 baseball players approx. 25 travel and most of those only have a partial scholarship. I was there when my friend, a 4x state champ wrestler had his program scrapped because of Title 9 idiots. If a program can stand on its feet through gate fees and donations let it stay. If not, it has to go. Baseball players that do make the MLB though few give back. Women equestrian,volleyball,soccer,gynastics not so much. Agree with bballman |
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kidsgame
35 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 12:03:42
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Well - I am talking about value in terms of character which is then reflected in the work place and in life, i.e. all of those qualities that make a person a productive member of society. We absolutely want our daughters and our sons to have the opportunity to develop these qualities through athletics, including college athletics so that they are encouraged to push themselves to be able to compete at that level. I am not talking about the value that a professional athlete may give away to charity.
I hear your frustration, bballman and neverquit, and for the most part I am in agreement. All should have an opportunity to excel through hardwork and determination in order to earn a spot on a college athletic team. I have a son - not a daughter - and absolutely want every door open to him that is open to anyone one else.
I also think that we are all in agreement that we don't want to go back to the days pre-Title 9, when girls did not play and were not enccouraged to play sports. Some fun facts (that I have not fact-checked), before Title 9, girls made up only 2% of college athletes and only 7% of high school athletes! Even if that stat is incorrectly understated, it is pretty telling.
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 12:51:31
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| For those of you who think title IX is useless, sorry, but I could not disagree more. Your complaints about scholarships only applies to Div 1 schools, as Div 3 schools can not give athletic scholarships. I know, I went to one and played women's soccer, when all said and done I had played for 16+ years. What percentage of scholarship athletes actually go on to make money in their sport? A very small number. So what you are saying is that men deserve the opportunity at a free education because a rare few may go on to make money in their sport, which would easily allow them to repay the cost of education, but women who will rely on their education to make a living, should not have the opportunity to use their athletic skills to earn a college degree? I would like to see the grade point averages for all athletes on scholarship, regardless of gender, and see who is really getting the most out of their scholarships. The goal of college should be an education. If it weren't for Title IX I would be surprised if there were any women's sports available. I'd actually be surprised if there were anything more than Football/Basketball/Baseball, since in the man centered world, we think those athletes should be paid millions, to play a game for a living. It is out of line to think that most women scholarship athletes have not "worked their butts off" simply because you believe it to be true. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 13:05:50
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| In addition, from the UGA scholarship info, there are 141.2 scholarships available to men, and 126 available to women. Not exactly even. If you want to complain about not enough baseball scholarships direct it towards football, which is allowed 85 scholarships to baseball's 11.7. UGA also has 3 more women's sports than men's, so it is not Title IX keeping UGA from a wrestling program. They could have 3 more men's sports if they wanted to. |
Edited by - BaseballMom6 on 10/24/2012 13:38:33 |
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kidsgame
35 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 15:08:39
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| Well said and great perspective, BaseballMom6! |
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funnyhop
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 20:17:39
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| Glad I asked. |
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ec1
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 20:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
In addition, from the UGA scholarship info, there are 141.2 scholarships available to men, and 126 available to women. Not exactly even. If you want to complain about not enough baseball scholarships direct it towards football, which is allowed 85 scholarships to baseball's 11.7. UGA also has 3 more women's sports than men's, so it is not Title IX keeping UGA from a wrestling program. They could have 3 more men's sports if they wanted to.
Right on...enough on this subject. Bbmom has certainly put bballman in place...this is 2012, things have changed, accept, move on and support your son or daughter in his or her endeavors... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 22:59:04
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Do you really think its a matter of putting people in their place? Title IX is actually about having the same number of programs per capita of student population for men and women. The female student population is 58% female, so there HAS to be more women's programs than men's.
Here is another story about a Title IX situation. The year before my son started his freshman year of HS, the parents of the baseball team raised $80,000 from private sources to build a press box and snack bar for the baseball field. Due to Title IX, they were not permitted to build it unless they spent the same amount of money on the girls softball program. This was not state money, this was not money raised partly by the parents of the girls softball team. It was money that the parents of the baseball team raised on their own - not as a part of dues or anything to do with the school - and donated to the baseball program to try to better the facilities. Didn't matter. Title IX did not allow it to happen. The parents had to give all the money back to those who donated it. The parents of the girls softball team didn't want to do any fundraising, but the baseball team couldn't on their own. I just don't think that is right. Maybe I could understand if it was school money they were using, but it wasn't. It was the parents donating the money.
I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not against women's collegiate athletics. I'm against quotas and the government mandating things that just don't turn out to be right. Good intentions, not always good outcomes.
And I'm not sour grapes because my son didn't get something or I'm afraid he's not going to get something. My son is in his freshman year of college on a pretty decent baseball scholarship. My younger son doesn't want to wrestle in college, but if he did, he couldn't. I'm just expressing my opinion on the subject. I think everyone has a right to their opinion and I respect that. I'm not trying to "put anyone in their place". I'm done with this and I really wouldn't have said anything else if I didn't "get put in my place" by the last poster. |
Edited by - bballman on 10/24/2012 23:26:18 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2012 : 23:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not against women's collegiate athletics. I'm against quotas and the government mandating things that just don't turn out to be right. Good intentions, not always good outcomes.
Bingo
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2012 : 09:46:49
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BBallMan: My younger son doesn't want to wrestle in college, but if he did, he couldn't.
I am pretty sure if he was good he could find a place to wrestle. The corn belt has tons of good wrestling schools. Also, there are tons of kids who are really good at stuff and don't get scholarships to school because of lacking programs, etc. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2012 : 10:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by peashooter
BBallMan: My younger son doesn't want to wrestle in college, but if he did, he couldn't.
I am pretty sure if he was good he could find a place to wrestle. The corn belt has tons of good wrestling schools. Also, there are tons of kids who are really good at stuff and don't get scholarships to school because of lacking programs, etc.
Guess I should have said if he wanted to wrestle reasonably close to home or in state. The other thing to think about - with wrestling anyway - is that you have right at one quarter of the colleges in the country with wrestling programs compared to baseball. With HS kids all over the country possibly wanting to get in and wrestle, the funnel gets very small. As hard as it is for baseball players to get a scholarship into an NCAA institution (5.6% of seniors get a baseball scholarship into an NCAA institution), the numbers are that much harder for wrestling, since there are so many fewer schools that offer it. I know, if you are a state champ, you can probably get a wrestling scholarship somewhere up in the midwest, but the competition is SUPER stiff because there are so many kids and so few spots.
I'm not making excuses for my son. He's a pretty good wrestler and likes doing it in HS. He just doesn't want to go on to the next level. At least, he doesn't want it bad enough to go to college up in Wisconsin or North Dakota or something.
Out of curiosity, I just looked it up. For NCAA Baseball, there are 297 DI teams, 242 DII teams, 408 DIII teams for a total of 947 NCAA Institutions offering baseball. For NCAA Wrestling, there are 95 DI teams, 44 DII teams and 106 DIII teams for a total of 245 NCAA Institutions offering a wrestling program. The numbers are not very good. |
Edited by - bballman on 10/30/2012 12:14:33 |
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College Recruiting - Which Kid Do You Choose?
