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LilBigTown
115 Posts |
 Posted - 08/29/2012 : 17:46:23
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| Should he be shutdown or should the city of Washington cash in on millions of dollars to play deep into October. Is it shocking for a business to ask for a return on thier 100 million dollar investment? Steve Avery youngest dominant pitcher in baseball pitched deep into october for 2 years only at 25 to be completely out of baseball...great read...What would you do in the game of proffesional baseball save the kid or cash in. Interesting side is Strasburg said they would have to drag him off the mound I guess he's already cashed in.You are the GM an Coach- win and keep your job an continue providing for your family or do whats right and be unemployed? |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 20:41:03
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Whats right is the 100 million dollar employee I hired plays when I tell him too. There is no guarantee his arm will be any better by pulling him before the end of the season. The remaining pitchers will have to pick up the slack so it's OK to hurt their arms and not his? Any pitcher can be hurt in his first inning pitching or his 200th.
If I'm the owner I keep him in the rotation and work him like every other pitcher until the season ends. I could pull him tonight and tomorrow he tears up his arm playing patty-cake with his nephew!
This is setting a stupid and dangerous precedence. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 21:24:20
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| I agree with 4bagger.... What happened to the days of 4 man rotations and pitchers going the entire game?? These people are just too dang careful. His first injury came after he threw 60 innings I think?? Not sure. I think him being a max effort 100mph guy is probably to blame more than overuse of a 23-24 year old. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 21:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by 4bagger
Whats right is the 100 million dollar employee I hired plays when I tell him too.
It's the team shutting him down. You make it sound like he is shutting it down himself. So if you tell the player to sit, he sits, right?
If I'm the owner I keep him in the rotation and work him like every other pitcher until the season ends. I could pull him tonight and tomorrow he tears up his arm playing patty-cake with his nephew!
This is setting a stupid and dangerous precedence.
I think you are half right. It's stupid. What's not guaranteed is that the Nats will contend again next year or anytime in the near future. You have to strike while the iron is hot, you never know when you will get another chance. Ask Dan Marino.
I don't think it's "dangerous". I'm pretty sure they did the same thing with Zimmerman last year, we just didn't notice because the Nats weren't in the race. And you are starting to hear rumblings that that is why Medlin wasn't in the starting rotation two months ago. The Braves were doing the same thing in reverse.
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LilBigTown
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 01:46:19
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| Interesting fact. They shut Zimmerman down last year and now he has one of best era's and records in baseball and hard to dispute what Nats are doing when they currently have best rotation and record in the national league. They look at it like long term investment not a one time trip to craps table in Vegas. Always fun to see where people stand when faced with decisions that affect your own pocketbook. |
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Tribe
82 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 08:27:02
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If the Nats were 14 games down in the East, I'd say, sure, shut him down and come back stronger next year. But with them apparently having a lock on post-season play, there's no way I'd go into the playoffs without the guy that got me there.
Besides, there's no guarantee that subsequent seasons will be as fruitful as this one for the Nats. This may be as close as they come.
Have to keep him in the rotation. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 08:28:07
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If he's getting proper rest, is feeling good, then the Nats should try to finish the deal this year. He could get run over by a bus in the off-season, so the future is never a guarantee. Easy for me to say as it's not my investment, but let him play if he's good to go.
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Gus Ball Still Wins
77 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 08:50:48
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| I agree with their position of limiting his innings. There is enough research out there to support the theory that a huge increase in workload from one year to another can lead to burnout and/or injury. However, I disagree with how they are doing it. If it were me, I would have limited his innings early in the season so he is available during the stretch run and playoffs. |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 09:27:46
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Listen to Leo Mazzoni.
He is 100% against this and he agrees it is a DANGEROUS precedence because other pitchers are being overused to take up the slack.
The injury problem is not number of innings pitched. It is how hard they are being told to throw. High school kids are being told that if they do not hit 85+ they won't make it and college kids need to hit mid-90s.
I don't know how fast they threw in the old days but did Cy Young and Satchel Paige hit the mid-90s all the time or were they successful because they controlled their pitches and hit their spots?
My point is why in decades past were pitchers able to go full games and have successful careers but todays pitchers need to be pampered and have "innings limits"? What changed?? |
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scorpionsbaseballeric
38 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 10:39:53
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This is a warped way to look at workload...innings. What's to say he didn't have a bunch of quick 12 pitch innings and those are being weighted the same as struggling through a tough 25-30 pitch inning! They are not the same but are being weighted the same.
I am not a big proponent of pitch counts either, but the theory that a pitcher has reached his limit because he threw X number of innings is idiotic. 2 pitchers could have both thrown 9 innings and pitcher 1 threw 90 pitches while pitcher 2 threw 130! So who had the harder workload? But if you compare just innings pitched, you are essentially stating their workload was the same! |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 10:44:54
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lets be honest - "shutting him down" means he just doesn't pitch in games - he still throws on the side, still does all the workout routine, etc. correct? -like previously said, look at all the pitchers that go down with freakish injuries - there is no guarantee his arm will hold up now, no guarantee he won't trip down the stairs leaving the dugout and break his arm.
If they were that concerned, he should have been on a shorter leash in April and May, not now while fighting for a playoff spot. Pull the kid in the middle of a pennant run is sort of stupid, both for him and the organization..
Extend his time between starts, limit his pitch count and innings and work your middle relief more - simple.. |
Edited by - ramman999 on 08/30/2012 10:56:10 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 10:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Ball Still Wins
I agree with their position of limiting his innings. There is enough research out there to support the theory that a huge increase in workload from one year to another can lead to burnout and/or injury. However, I disagree with how they are doing it. If it were me, I would have limited his innings early in the season so he is available during the stretch run and playoffs.
That makes a lot more sense!!
I just wonder why guys used to throw 350-450 inning a year(Cy Young) or 300-350(Walter Johnson) and now guys are getting shut down at 160? They didn't have relief pitching back then either. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 11:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
quote:
Originally posted by Gus Ball Still Wins
I agree with their position of limiting his innings. There is enough research out there to support the theory that a huge increase in workload from one year to another can lead to burnout and/or injury. However, I disagree with how they are doing it. If it were me, I would have limited his innings early in the season so he is available during the stretch run and playoffs.
That makes a lot more sense!!
I just wonder why guys used to throw 350-450 inning a year(Cy Young) or 300-350(Walter Johnson) and now guys are getting shut down at 160? They didn't have relief pitching back then either.
It could be that they were able to pitch when they were hurt and get away with it. It does seem like a lot of times when a good pitcher starts to get shelled, it turns out that there is a physical issue.
And it's not like you have to go all the way back to those guys. Starters pitched way deeper into the game in the '60's and '70's. It was only in the '70's that relievers became a specialty and not just where you put guys that weren't good enough to start.
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Edited by - AllStar on 08/30/2012 11:12:08 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 11:36:40
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quote:
Originally posted by 4bagger
Listen to Leo Mazzoni.
He is 100% against this and he agrees it is a DANGEROUS precedence because other pitchers are being overused to take up the slack.
The injury problem is not number of innings pitched. It is how hard they are being told to throw. High school kids are being told that if they do not hit 85+ they won't make it and college kids need to hit mid-90s.
I don't know how fast they threw in the old days but did Cy Young and Satchel Paige hit the mid-90s all the time or were they successful because they controlled their pitches and hit their spots?
My point is why in decades past were pitchers able to go full games and have successful careers but todays pitchers need to be pampered and have "innings limits"? What changed??
Addressing the pitchers of old. Guys like Cy Young and Walter Johnson were freaks. They are the ones you hear about because of what they did, but, I'm sure they pitched many, many times when they felt like their arms were going to fall off. My theory about all that is that pitchers got weeded out rather quickly back then. If you couldn't pitch full games, you were let go and someone else took their place. If they couldn't do it, they were gone and someone else was right there to give it a shot. Kind of like evolution, only the strong survived.
Things are different now a days. Back then, the players weren't under contract. They could get let go without any penalty. They were also not paid very much. Most guys probably didn't make more than $5,000 a year. Now, you have $100,000,000 invested in a guy like Strassburg. If he gets hurt again, you can't just let him go and be done with it. He is under contract for a HUGE sum of money. Andthe team will continue to be responsible for paying him, whether he is pitching or not. That money also goes against their salary cap. Much more complicated now. Who knows how many pitchers the old teams went through before they found their Cy Young or Walter Johnson or Bob Gibson. Even guys not as elite as Strassburg carry a big investment and teams are going to try to fix them rather than let them go. In the old days, you tore your UCL, you were done. There was no fixing it.
Anyway, like I said, things are much different and much more complicated now a days.
That being said. This is the year of the Nationals. In my book, they should ride Strassburg. If he blows his elbow out again, get it fixed. Let him sit out next year. It's not easy to make it to the playoffs and have a chance at a World Championship. I think the Nationals made this statement before the season started when they had no idea they would be in this position. Now they are in a position where they may have to go back on their word. It's a tough situation for them, but I would stick with their ACE and hope for the best. He's not a 12 year old kid where your looking out for his future. He is an adult and his future is now and this looks like the year for Washington. |
Edited by - bballman on 08/30/2012 13:12:18 |
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Gus Ball Still Wins
77 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 13:03:24
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| I think we should all email the Nats GM and make the case for shutting him down. The Braves are only 5 back, people. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2012 : 14:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Gus Ball Still Wins
I think we should all email the Nats GM and make the case for shutting him down. The Braves are only 5 back, people.
HAHAHAHA!!!! Great point Gus.
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Strasburg
