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22202
263 Posts |
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1337ball
28 Posts |
 Posted - 08/22/2012 : 15:10:00
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| I imagine there is a good possibility this impacts other youth baseball leagues now that there is a precedent. I wonder if this will have any ramification in adult rec softball leagues (ASA, USSSA, ISA, etc) as well? |
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Coach D
167 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 16:29:10
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| Wow , Every parents worst nightmare . I imagine this will change things from more than just a USSSA stamp on the bats . Though I am sure this same thing could happen with wood , or even a thrown or pitched ball . |
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southernboy21
23 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 20:50:52
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Is it just me or is this a little ridiculous? I hate it for the kid and family. But to hold the bat manufacturer, the sporting goods store, and little league accountable for a freak accident is insane. This is everything that is wrong with this country, because one freak accident, the rest of us will probably be required to play baseball with wiffle balls and plastic bats.quote:
Originally posted by Coach D
Wow , Every parents worst nightmare . I imagine this will change things from more than just a USSSA stamp on the bats . Though I am sure this same thing could happen with wood , or even a thrown or pitched ball .
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 08:02:34
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southernboy21,
AGREE 100%. Unless the bat had been altered or something else, then this is simply an accident. Very sad but still simply an accident. |
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ivpartner
80 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 08:11:38
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I worry every time my son takes the mound. Pitching is one of the few positions in baseball that you have very little protection against a line drive. Remember the foul ball Bryan McCann hit into the dugout and a Braves coach lost an eye. A few years ago a 1B coach was hit with a line drive killing him. Now all coaches have to wear protective helmets.
Having said all that, my son wears a mouthpiece, cup, and Evoshield chest protector when he takes the field for practice OR games. That is the best we can do. My guess is this kid wasn't wearing any chest protection. If this kid was wearing an Evoshield he probably would be with us today.
Finally, the issue referenced really doesn't even address coaches and parents that roll or shave composite bats or teams that use high school rated baseballs at the younger ages to get more velocity off the bats. Just stupid what some parents and coaches will do at any age to get an advantage. |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 08:20:32
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Unfortunate and every parent's nightmare. On my son's 8u team, I think almost every kid has a chest protector on. I think it's standard equipment these days.
Yes they may make you a little bit more uncomfortable on a hot day, but no substitute for the protection it provides. My son has never taken a line-drive off of it, but he has been wearing one since he was 5 and has taken some grounders and fly balls off of it.
The EvoShield is expensive but I know that thing provides about as much protection to his chest as possible. |
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WestCoastGuru
148 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 08:38:47
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I read this article yesterday, and was reflecting while watching the little league world series last night and watching a couple kids hit major shots with the Easton Omen and the Easton S1.....and I am talking about shots of over 250 feet, is it just me or were there kids in your little league as a kid that was hitting bombs like this? And how are you going to try and sell anybody on the bats the kids are using are safer than the bats from 2 or 3 years ago???? Guess that's my main issue with all of this, the new bat regulations are no different than the specs of a few years ago....it's all a scam in my book!
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Crossroads
448 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 09:15:20
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| Bring in the fences and go to the composite wood bats. They won't break as much as regular wood bats and it would increase safety 10 folds. |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 10:18:24
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Agree with Crossroads. Wood composites.
Ivpartner- I could absolutely be wrong but I vaguely remember a study a year or two ago showing that those chest protectors are not effective. They provide psychological protection but not much more. Like I said, I could be mistaken.
It is a difficult thing to determine unless you take two live kids and hit them in the exact same spot at the same time, one with a shield, one without, and see what happens and no one is even suggesting doing that so I am a little leery that they really work. The reasoning makes sense, but I don;t know how you can 100% test it and say it would have prevented this accident.
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 10:20:03
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| WestCoast and Crossroads, I haven't been doing the youth baseball too long and this is our first year at travel ball. Is it me or does the field for the little league world series look a bit on the small side? I just checked USSSA and they recommend 70 foot bases and center field fence depth of 275 for 11/12u. I think the field for Little League is 60 foot bases and 225 all the way around the park. Just seems small to me for 11,12 and the occasional 13 year old. Our 8u's practice and play I think on 60 foot bases now and will pitch at 40 feet. If a kid running from 1st to 2nd can get thrown out on a base hit to the outfield, the field is too small. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 10:20:04
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| They could move the age cut off back to where it used to be and that would help i think. Back when we were kids at 12u a lot of these big kids would have been playing at 13u. It was better before the change I think. Fences were about right age extension made all fences short to me. Not as many kids being able to play down a grade level either although it was still possible. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 10:53:48
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Genetics....kids have outgrown the 200' fences. LLWS is a joke, ground ball to left is a triple. Bad swing HR's..yadda yadda...And I know my brother won it in 83. But back then he was a freak, and most kids were not the beasts they are now.
Also, LLWS is horrible for child progression. I remember moving from LL to Pony the next year at 13...Then in the summer we played Babe Ruth. I went from those short bases and mounds to 60' 90' in 1 year. That is a crazy jump. I like the progression now of days. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 14:10:01
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The bats these days are definitely hotter than every before, kids are bigger and stronger on average than ever before, balls are tighter and better than ever before.
Go to wood composite or a real BBCOR bat for all baseball players.
When A 12 and 13 year old hits balls close to 400 feet there is something wrong with the bats. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. No amount of money is worth losing a life and eye or dying. |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 15:36:10
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| This incident occurred in 2006. In the six years since, there have already been a lot of changes to the bats. There are studies available on Google Scholar regarding the chest protectors. They provide no appreciable improvement in protection from cardiac arrest due to being struck by a hard hit ball at the exact instant (between heartbeats) that would cause it. Read the fine print on the package. It makes no representation that it protects from that. |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2012 : 15:51:24
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Here is my post from last year on the studies about chest protector effectiveness.
There have been a few more done since this one. One suggests that wearing chest protection impedes CPR when commodore cordis occurs. Another reported that 32% of reported commodore codis incidents involved an athlete wearing a chest protector.
Here's my old post:
Did the research on this a few years ago. I would not discourage anyone from purchasing if they thought it would provide added safety, but studies suggest to me that they are not that effective in preventing ventricular fibrillation. Below is an older abstract that I had found. I'll see if any new studies have been done.
Article
Failure of Commercially Available Chest Wall Protectors to Prevent Sudden Cardiac Death Induced by Chest Wall Blows in an Experimental Model of Commotio Cordis
Jonathan Weinstock, MDa, Barry J. Maron, MDb, Christopher Song, BAa, Paresh P. Mane, MDa, N.A. Mark Estes III, MDa, Mark S. Link, MDa
+ Author Affiliations
aCardiac Arrhythmia Center, Division of Cardiology, Department of Medicine, Tufts University School of Medicine, Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts
bMinneapolis Heart Institute Foundation, Minneapolis, Minnesota
ABSTRACT
OBJECTIVE. Sudden cardiac death that results from chest wall blows (commotio cordis) the second leading cause of death in young athletes. Most events are caused by blows from projectiles, such as baseballs or lacrosse balls, with a substantial proportion occurring despite the use of a chest protector. In the present experiment, we tested the effectiveness of commercially available chest protectors in preventing ventricular fibrillation (VF) that results from chest wall strikes with baseballs and lacrosse balls.
METHODS. Twelve different baseball or lacrosse chest protectors were evaluated in juvenile swines that were subjected to 40-mph baseball or lacrosse ball blows to the precordium during the vulnerable period of repolarization for VF and were compared with control impacts without chest protectors. Seven baseball chest protectors were hit by regulation baseballs, and 5 lacrosse chest protectors were tested by blows with standard lacrosse balls. Each animal received 2 chest blows for each protector and 2 control impacts without a chest protector, with the sequence of impacts assigned randomly.
RESULTS. VF was elicited by 12 (32%) of 37 strikes in control animals without baseball chest protectors. None of the baseball chest wall protectors tested were shown to decrease significantly the occurrence of VF when compared with controls. VF was elicited by 11 (46%) of 24 strikes in control animals without lacrosse chest protectors. None of the lacrosse chest wall protectors tested decreased significantly the occurrence of VF when compared with controls.
CONCLUSION. In our experimental animal model of commotio cordis, commercially available baseball and lacrosse chest wall protectors were ineffective in protecting against VF that was triggered by chest blows and, by inference, sudden cardiac death. Improvements in materials and design of chest wall barriers are necessary to reduce the occurrence of these tragic events and make the athletic field safer for youths.
Key Words: death sudden cardiac arrhythmia ventricular fibrillation pediatrics commotio cordis athletes
Accepted November 11, 2005.
Copyright © 2006 by the American Academy of Pediatrics
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2012 : 12:14:56
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Bats are hot no doubt....but how in the world can a person sign a kid up to play a sport where the ball gets hit right at you and then sue when it actually happens.....ridiculous...and I get the point of slowing the bats down but these comebackers just don't happen that often IMO. We have played 65-80 games a year for 4 years and I have seen 2 that entire time that actually injured the pitcher. I have personally seen more collisions in the OF?? Do we need to sue the CF for not calling the ball loud enough?!?!
Btw at Disney a couple of weeks ago a kid hit his head playing basketball and was knocked out and required stitches......are they going to make foam courts now?? My point is the risk is there, if that risk is too much maybe parents should buy a chess set or set of golf clubs. We used freaking fence posts for bats in the early 90s(wood bats were better!!!) and there was still an occasional comebacker. It is part of the game.... |
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LilBigTown
115 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2012 : 12:23:09
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| Great Posts Spartan... Utopia has landed for our youth... |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 12:14:20
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| I think the difference in a wooden basketball court is we know the floor is made of wood has always been wood and we know the risks of playing and landing on a wood floor. If this kid had been hit with a baseball off a wooden bat I don't think they would have won the lawsuit or even filed one probably. But when you have companies making ridiculous bats that make kids (11 and 12) hit balls like grown men who have reflexes like kids that is crazy. Dial the bat or balls down it is still baseball. Safety of the kids should be #1 in any sport before even having fun and when you use steroid bats safety is not the #1 priority. We are all playing the odds but I would like to think if we can do whatever it takes to put them in the favor of the kids. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 12:42:52
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I agree with Spartan. There are certain inherent risks with the sport. Even if you slow things down by bat or ball regulations, there is still risk. Unless you use rubber bats or rubber balls. Then it is not the same game.
People talk about softball and how they regulate the hardness of the ball - or core. I have still seen a pitcher's jaw broken with the "reduced core ball". I played 3rd base and wound up with some nasty bruises on my shins from absolute rockets hit to me with the reduced core balls. It is no guarantee that things will be safe with a reduced rebound bat, or a different core ball. I have seen some bombs hit with wood bats. Remember folks, we are talking about tenths or hundreths of a second difference between the metal and wood. It may save some accidents, but it will not make things completely safe by any means.
There are inherent risks in playing baseball. There are inherent risks in playing any sport. Even in golf, you run the risk of getting hit by an errant shot (especially if I'm out there playing). If you don't want to take the risk, don't play. |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 17:39:47
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I agree that there are inherent risks in sport, just like there are inherent risks in business when you put a product out in the market. These defendants chose to settle rather than let a jury decide the outcome. It was pure cost-benefit analysis theory for them to do what they did. That means that in the end they decided that a compromise settlement was less costly than the risk of trial. I can tell you from personal experience that Corporate Defendants never pay 8 figures to settle a doubtful claim. And we'll never know what was going to come out in trial that motivated them to settle, but you can be sure that they believed it was going to cost them a lot more than what they paid.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 18:54:55
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| Sometimes just the legal cost to go to court and try the case costs more than what they settle for. Maybe they didn't think they would lose, but just didn't want to pay what it cost to defend themselves. There is the public perception issue as well. Maybe they didn't want to be seen as the bad guy going against a kid that was hurt, even if it wasn't their fault. I'm sure their insurance company paid the settlement anyway. Probably didn't cost the defendants much, if anything. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 21:15:17
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| I wasn't trying to say safety isn't a concern. More pointing out it is way too easy to sue people and it probably happens more than it should. Shouldn't parents be partially liable for signing their kid up for a sport where the OBJECT OF THE GAME is to hit the ball out into the field(where the opposing team is)..I mean McDonalds got sued for having hot coffee. Personally I'm fine either way mine loves to hit with wood bats, but as long as he has to pitch against the hottest bats available you can bet he will swing one. My main thought is as soon as little Johnny takes a splintered barrel off the fore head or knee cap there will be a massive voice for "composite wooden bats"... Then the parents of the kids who don't hit as far will accuse the rest of the world of using "loaded bats".....Let the kids play and instead of taking the time and effort to sue half the world because an accident occurred maybe they should focus on a rule change instead. The same teams and kids are gonna be good regardless of equipment IMO... |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 08/27/2012 21:55:27 |
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Metal Bat lawsuit
