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MAPSTRE
33 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2012 : 07:46:56
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| Runners on 1st & 2nd, Short fly ball to RF. Rf traps ball runners advance. Hitter thinks he caught it, hits first and turns to foul territorry, heading back to dougout. Hitter sees it was rulled a no catch and heads back to first. Fb man tags hitter, ump calls hitter out. Right or wrong call? |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 09:28:32
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I have him out BEFORE he was tagged
--T
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 13:21:22
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| He would have to have "abandoned" 1st base for him to be called out. Umpires discretion. My opinion is, if he didn't actually go into the dugout, he has not abandoned the base and has the right to go back to it. I don't think a tag has anything to do with it. If he didn't make an attempt to go to second, a tag is out of the equation. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 15:41:20
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| Only choice is abandoned base. Was his dugout on the 1b side or 3B saide? How far from the bag did he get? Several variables. Maybe blue could have done a better job on the catch/no catch call and the 1st base coach with directing the player. I think high school rules have very specific rules regarding abandoning the base, i just am not familiar with them. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 16:05:09
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Hey bballman, re-read the original post. The OP said that the BR did clearly abandon his base and was "heading back to the dugout". Like you, I would probably give the kid every chance to get back to his base unless he walked all the way back to the dugout....BUT....because he walked away from his newly acquired base and then the quick thinking first baseman put a tag on him he is out for sure. The OP asked if the call was RIGHT or WRONG and based on what was written the call was RIGHT.
7.08 Any runner is out when—
(a) (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base
Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.
--T |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 17:34:46
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| Coachtony, the OP did say that the BR was heading back to the dugout, he did not say that the runner "abandoned" the base. Take the case of a dropped 3rd strike. As long as the runner does not enter the dugout, he still has a right to pursue 1st base. I don't think that taking X number of steps towards the dugout constitutes abandoning the base. If he realizes that the ball was not caught after heading towards the dugout, I don't think it's an automatic abandonment. Since the runner touched 1st base, he is safe. Nowhere does it state he made an attempt at going to 2nd base, that's why I say the tag doesn't come into play. If a runner abandoned the base, I'm not sure a tag has to be made. I still say safe unless he entered the dugout. |
Edited by - bballman on 06/25/2012 22:00:57 |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2012 : 23:54:45
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bballman, just for my own clarification, what is the difference in the BR "heading back to the dugout" and the BR "abandoning" the base? I just want to make sure that I have the definition correct.
As for the other rule, I think you might be mistaken. On a D3RD once the runner leaves the dirt circle around Home Plate he is out (6.09 (b)). I have never seen anywhere that it says that as long as he does not enter the dugout he is free to pursue first base. With that said and as I said above, I would give the kid every chance to get back to the base but you can't just forsake the game.
Let's try it a different way....would you change your mind if the BR was in the 3rd Base Dugout?? So he gets to first, turns toward the foul line, walks back toward 1B thinking the ball is caught then begins to walk behind the pitcher towards his dugout. What then? A smart base runner would simply take another few steps and be on 2B. The OP did not indicate which dugout the team was in but for the rules it does not matter. This is why the "abandonment" rule exists.
Of course, like most baseball rules it leaves some things to interpretation...this just happens to be mine. I still think the umpire made the RIGHT call.
--T
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Edited by - coachtony on 06/26/2012 08:15:39 |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 10:17:21
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quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
bballman, just for my own clarification, what is the difference in the BR "heading back to the dugout" and the BR "abandoning" the base? I just want to make sure that I have the definition correct.
As for the other rule, I think you might be mistaken. On a D3RD once the runner leaves the dirt circle around Home Plate he is out (6.09 (b)). I have never seen anywhere that it says that as long as he does not enter the dugout he is free to pursue first base. With that said and as I said above, I would give the kid every chance to get back to the base but you can't just forsake the game.
Let's try it a different way....would you change your mind if the BR was in the 3rd Base Dugout?? So he gets to first, turns toward the foul line, walks back toward 1B thinking the ball is caught then begins to walk behind the pitcher towards his dugout. What then? A smart base runner would simply take another few steps and be on 2B. The OP did not indicate which dugout the team was in but for the rules it does not matter. This is why the "abandonment" rule exists.
Of course, like most baseball rules it leaves some things to interpretation...this just happens to be mine. I still think the umpire made the RIGHT call.
--T
I think the "dugout" rule is specific to NFHS. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 12:59:48
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christheump....you AND bballman are correct on the dugout rule for a D3RD. I guess I should have disclaimed my response because I am not versed in the nuances of NFHS. So, I learned something new today about the D3RD rule in NFHS. In 8-4-1-i I can see where in the case of a D3RD the batter must go all the way into the dugout. I will always remember that ;)
Now, back to the OP question....since it had nothing to do with D3RD....even in NFHS Rule 8-4-2-p says a BR is OUT when "after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base".
In this case, the way it was explained by the OP, Umpire was RIGHT.
--T |
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F2202
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 13:50:17
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Dropped 3rd strike in NFHS the batter/runner must go all the way into the dugout before he loses his right to run to first. However, if the catcher with the ball begins to walk towards the batter/runner, attempting to make a play, and the batter/runner walks 3 more feet, he is now out of the baseline.
As for the OP, he's out. |
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Sacrifice53
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 13:56:05
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| Dug out was actually 5ft from 1st base on this field. Umpire used his judgement to call batter out after he touched first base. Purely judgement call whether good or bad. With as little room as there was any runner breaking down and turning out could have been called out using same logic. Win some lose some. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 15:20:47
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In this instance, it all comes down to umpires judgement as to when the BR abandons the base. What if the runner makes a very wide turn into foul territory and loops back to 1st base? Can that immediately be called abandoning the base? I have seen guys take a 10 foot turn, bend down, take off a shin guard and walk back to the base. I don't think there is a set distance away from the base line that automatically makes a runner abandon the base. It is purely an umpire judgement call. I said that from the beginning.
My only question is where does the tag come in. If a runner is determined to have abandoned the base, must he be tagged, or is he automatically out? Is it an appeal play? Does the ump automatically call it, or does a tag have to be made? I don't know the procedure on that. |
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field6
72 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2012 : 16:54:20
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| The player did abandoned the base thinking he was out. The right fielder trapped the ball and threw back to first to get double play. The runner was tagged trying to get back on the base and was called out. The only reason the player went back to first was because we was all yelling saying "GET BACK ON THE BASE". In my opinion (as their coach) the ump got it right and I believe the right call was made. I am looking at this as if I was on the opposite team and I'm just being honest. In the umpires judgement he felt the player gave the base up and he made his call. Could have easily been called the other way. Someone said it best-YOU WIN SOME AND YOU LOSE SOME- |
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Fly ball not caught
