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sirlurker
187 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2012 : 01:29:10
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| Bases loaded, one out. Batter pops ball up in infield towards first base. No Infield fly called. First baseman loses the ball in the lights and it lands right behind him. All runners advance. Batter reaches first. My question is this - would you score that as an error or hit? |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 09:04:24
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| Hit. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 09:29:20
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| Single, RBI. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 09:38:02
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| Should be infield fly rule without question. I would say the umpires messed this up for you, batter should be out and all runners just should be safe for advancing at their own risk. Now how to record that in the book? E-3 if the first baseman should have caught the baseball. |
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bigmcbb
46 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 10:11:14
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| Agreed. Single, RBI. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 10:31:32
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| If nobody touches it I always give a hit. |
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nwgadad
137 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 10:37:53
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E U - error on the Umpire.
When I read the 'rules' on MLB.com it looks like it is up to the scorer to make a decision. If you think the ball should have been caught, mark it an error, if not catchable, mark it a hit.
Ask a couple of the parents what they think and go with majority! |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:12:14
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10.12 Errors
Rule 10.12(a)(1) Comment: Slow handling of the ball that does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. For example, the official scorer shall not charge a fielder with an error if such fielder fields a ground ball cleanly but does not throw to first base in time to retire the batter. It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a fly ball falls untouched and, in the scorer's judgment, the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, the official scorer shall charge such fielder with an error. For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer#146;s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner. The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer#146;s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball. |
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Tribe
82 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:13:08
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It's customary to award a hit when an otherwise playable ball is lost in the sun or lights, but I'm against that. For one thing, a scorekeeper can only judge the fielder's body language to determine if the sun or lights played a part...this call is just too subjective.
Playing in the sun and under the lights is part of the game. Being unable to track a ball in common conditions (when others are making plays in similar conditions) should be charged as an error. Pitchers should not be penalized when they produce infield pop-ups.
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sirlurker
187 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:19:39
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| Thanks...I had originally scored it as an error as I felt the ball should have and could have been caught...the parent of the batter wasn't happen with my call and questioned me about it saying it shouldn't be an error because the fielder never saw or touched the ball with his glove....so I went back and changed it to a hit. At the park it was a split opinion with half saying hit/half saying error. Appears here that it is 75 percent hit and 25 percent error. |
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sirlurker
187 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:30:46
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| I was also questioned why in an earlier at bat I had given a hit when the ball hit off an outfielder's glove. In my opinion, the outfielder ran a mile and slide to try and make the play but it ended up bouncing off his glove. To me, that is a clean hit on 90 percent of outfields, this kid just almost made an extraordinary play so I credited the batter with a hit. I'm beginning to think I'm not paid enough to be a volunteer scorekeeper...HA! |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sirlurker
Thanks...I had originally scored it as an error as I felt the ball should have and could have been caught...the parent of the batter wasn't happen with my call and questioned me about it saying it shouldn't be an error because the fielder never saw or touched the ball with his glove....so I went back and changed it to a hit. At the park it was a split opinion with half saying hit/half saying error. Appears here that it is 75 percent hit and 25 percent error.
Official way to score this. If the parent thinks it was a hit, it was MOST LIKELY an error . . .  |
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nwgadad
137 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 11:45:07
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"I'm beginning to think I'm not paid enough to be a volunteer scorekeeper...HA!"
"Official way to score this. If the parent thinks it was a hit, it was MOST LIKELY an error ."
Both of these quotes are so true! |
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baseball_fan
72 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 13:09:10
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| if a routine pop up you have to score it an error |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 13:48:02
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| What age group is this? why would all the runner go? Did your coach ask the umpire why he didn't call infield fly rule? What did ump say? I think I would have had to see it like someone else said to make a decent call of error or hit. Where was the 2nd baseman? I also don't know if losing a ball in the lights is the same as losing it in the sun. I think I would have put hit also just to make the hitters parents happy, calling it an error doesn't hurt anyone on your team, although if the umpire made the correct call the player would have not gotten a hit. I say score it an error. lol |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 16:46:20
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Parents are worried about how the ball in play was scored? That's a big flashing sign that somebody is riding the results roller coaster. . .
Too bad because batting average tells you very little about a hitter other the percentage of hits for the sampling time frame. Think about it, the difference between .250 and .300 is really just 5% or 5 hits in 100 AB's.
That's a big deal at the MLB level and in a 162 game season, but not so much of a difference in youth baseball. I'd much rather know a player's quality at bat percentage and runs produced per at bat. QAB tells you the most about a hitter, things like two strike balls in play, 3+ pitches after two strikes in the count, advancing runners, etc. give you a lot more insight about the hitter than just his average. Now I do like the batting average with RISP stat.
If the ball was lost in the sun, then its going to take extraordinary effort to make that play, which makes it a hit if not caught. If the ump saw the baseman struggling to find the ball, he should not invoke the rule. |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 17:47:31
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Eyeblack, sunglasses, cap brim, glove design- lots of help out there to block out the sun. A routine pop-up in the infield that's not caught is an error.
You're the scorekeeper. You're on "staff". While working you are not the other parents friend. Score it as you see it and the other parents can accept it or not. |
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AA17Dad
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2012 : 20:27:37
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| If it is lost in the sun or the lights it is a hit. Period. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2012 : 13:24:34
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| AA17Dad...pretty bold comment. How do you know it was lost in the lights...Maybe the player wasn't paying attention...had poor position...then pretended to lose it in the lights. You can't judge intent. You can judge that a popup pretty much anywhere in the infield should be caught. What about a ground ball that gets lost in the lights, or he didn't see it off the bat because of glare etc... |
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gamefanatic
40 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2012 : 14:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by sirlurker
Official way to score this. If the parent thinks it was a hit, it was MOST LIKELY an error . . .
Same on wild pitch/pass ball. If the pitcher's parent is scoring it's a pass ball. If the catcher's parent is scoring it's a wild pitch. 
Error IMHO. |
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AA17Dad
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 10:53:58
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quote:
Originally posted by peashooter
"AA17Dad...pretty bold comment".
Nothing Bold about it, Just stating the correct way to score a ball lost in the lights.
"How do you know it was lost in the lights"
The OP said the player lost the ball in the lights....I wasn't there perhaps you should direct this one to the OP...
"Maybe the player wasn't paying attention"
If a player is not paying attention and a routine ball goes by him or lands near him.....That would be an error.
"had poor position"
Being out off position is not an error. It may have been a strategic move...
"then pretended to lose it in the lights."
Still scored a hit "
You can't judge intent."
Nor can you score intent an error.
"You can judge that a popup pretty much anywhere in the infield should be caught."
Can't disagree with you here but if lost it is still scored a hit.
"What about a ground ball that gets lost in the lights, or he didn't see it off the bat because of glare etc..."
Hit.
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Edited by - AA17Dad on 05/23/2012 12:26:53 |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 12:05:06
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what if it is a very routine ground ball and a bug goes in his eye, he still tries to play through it but can't. I think it is an error as well. The thing is a player should be able to play through the lights at most parks. I might have been more lenient on the pop up if it had touched his glove rather than landed behind him. But you have to have been there to make the best call.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 13:03:47
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You can continue beating this dead horse, but . . .
An error is the act, in the judgment of the official scorer, of a fielder misplaying a ball in a manner that allows a batter or baserunner to reach one or more additional bases, when such an advance would have been prevented given ordinary effort by the fielder.
So it's entirely up to the official scorer whether or not it's considered ordinary effort. If the scorer see's the sun/lights in the fielder's eyes and deems that, because of this, extraordinary effort would have been required by the fielder to make the play, then the batter gets credit for a hit. No doubt that of 10 scorers, 5 might give a hit and 5 might give an error, but it is entirely in the judgement of the scorer. |
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AA17Dad
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 18:52:09
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Well, to simplify. I player must create the error by making a mistake ( Error) If the player gets injured during the course of a routine play and can not make the play do to the injury it is not an error.
Yes the official scorer has the ability to use his judgement and make a call but as this thread has indicated there are different opinions on just what and error is. The correct call on a lost ball or a bad hop etc. is to rule it a hit.
I know plenty of scorers that go by the " it could have been made or it should have been made " theory and that works pretty good most of the time but not always. Played on a team years ago that had a scorer whos line of thought was that if there was any way possible for the play to be made and was not then it was given an error.
The scorer can use his judgment but that doesnt make it the right way to score the play. There are guide lines to score keeping that many scorers simply do not understand. Bottom line is the player has to screw something up to be given an error. Not playing a ball perfectly is not an error.
As in HITANDRUNS post earlier. A player can field a ball cleanly but take his time getting rid of it, runner is safe...no error. When had the player made the play to perfection and got rid of the ball it would have and should have been an out.....Still no error.
Judgment will always play a role in scoring hits and errors but there is a correct method to follow. An error must be earned. The default on judgment should be to score it a hit unless a player has earned the error.
At the age group sirluker is scoring the players should be able to shield a ball from the sun but even pros lose balls in the sun and lights and no errors are given.
Sirluker does a fine job scoring a game as honest as anyone I know and better than most for sure.
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 08:53:29
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| Let's beat it one more time... what if this same ball is hit in the same spot, 1st baseman calls it, but 2nd baseman calls him off loud enough for everyone to hear it and misses it by 5 feet because he lost it in the lights? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2012 : 09:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
Let's beat it one more time... what if this same ball is hit in the same spot, 1st baseman calls it, but 2nd baseman calls him off loud enough for everyone to hear it and misses it by 5 feet because he lost it in the lights?
Judgement of the scorer.
Here's one. Same situation as above, except the CF then comes in and calls off the 2b, and right before he's about to catch it a fan hits an air horn, causing him to flinch. His flinch causes his eyes to come in line with some headlights on a car parked on a hill about 75 yards behind home plate who had just turned his headlights on. All this prevents him from seeing a squirrel who ran onto the field, causing him to trip, falling face first and allowing the ball to bounce off his back, hit the second baseman on the shin, is then kicked by the first baseman before hitting the ground.
Who's charged with the error? Or is it a hit?
To seriously address your question, how is this any different than the original scenario. Just because the 2b properly called off 1b (has priority and we have to assume proper angle because you didn't say otherwise) and he now loses the ball in the lights, it's now somehow different? Are you suggesting that the 2b should have anticipated that the lights would get in his eyes, but not the first baseman's, so he should not have called it and left a more difficult play to 1b? 2b should be charged with an error because he didn't anticipate that the lights would get in his eyes?
See, there's too many unknowns, which is why there's only one guy with the pencil on the official book (or finger if using ipad). It's his/her call.
How far do you want to keep taking this? You can create endless "what if" scenarios, but at the end of the day, it's in the judgement of the scorer as to whether ordinary effort would have resulted in the out. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 05/24/2012 09:48:38 |
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Scoring Question
