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F2202
63 Posts |
 Posted - 03/20/2012 : 01:18:14
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 06:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
The bat is in his bag and I can promise has not been tampered with in any way and can be checked by anyone at any tournament.
It is easy to say that a bat can be checked by anyone at a tournament, but that is not actually the case. There are companies out there that have all the new bats that they will pull the end caps off, shave the bat and replace the cap. When you get the bat it looks just like the same bat purchased from a reputable dealer. My understanding is that the only way to inspect the bat is either use a piece of very expensive equipment that will measure the wall thickness, or pull the end cap off and physically measure the thickness of the side walls. This problem will continue until the bat companies come together and take legal action against the companies that are tampering with and selling their bats. |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 08:47:15
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I think its just unrealistic to expect umpires or tourney officials to check bats. Regardless of the reasoning behind the rule, its incumbent on the coaches to monitor bat use (if they so choose) by opponents, same as it is to monitor rosters and innings pitched. Now if a coach raises the issue, I certainly expect umpires to understand the rules and follow them.
Personally, I don't really care if the other team is using last year's bat or Grandad's piece of hand carved old hickory from the 1930's. In the big picture, which for me as a coach is preparing my players for the next level, what bat our opponents use has very little effect or impact on what we are trying to do.
If a kid smacks a dinger on a 200' foot fence with an illegal bat, good for him. In the end, he is only cheating himself. It still provides a teachable moment for my pitcher: Keep the ball down in the zone and you don't have to worry about a short fence or the lumber being used by the batter.
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 09:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
I think its just unrealistic to expect umpires or tourney officials to check bats. Regardless of the reasoning behind the rule, its incumbent on the coaches to monitor bat use (if they so choose)
Well, it's been a while since I've posted, but this is a hot topic, and I for one don't understand this logic...
How is it unrealistic to have an umpire check bats? I played mens league softball, with similar tournament fees, and they checked bats ALL the time...
My daughter played travel softball for years, and they checked bats ALL the time - dents, out of shape, tampered, legality, you name it..
When I as a coach pay tournament fees, I have some expectations that come along with that, namely safe playing field and conditions, a well run tournament and capable umpiring, which means they abide by all of the rules set forth, not selectively follow..
How can we talk out of both sides of our mouth about rules?? Why are we giving them the excuses? |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 11:21:57
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| Papa agrees that it is not unrealistic for the umpires to do their dang job. The made the rules so why should we expect them not to enforce the rules. I want the bat checked so that it can be approved and then grown men might not feel the need to question a kid's ability to hit a baseball. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 12:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Papa will most likely end up getting testy over the post made by bharbin so before I get bent out of shape I want my friends on this forum's opinion. Is it possible to do what he says he saw legally. Would it be possible for any 13 year old to work almost year round to achieve his dream of playing baseball at a higher level.
I think it disrespect's the game more to make general accusations that you can't prove without at least attempting to make sure that what you are saying is true before you bark so loud.
Most of you have watched the way my grandson's play and know how much passion they have for the game. I think illegal bats should be outlawed and almost witnessed a tragedy at the Triple Crown when a kid hit a hard line drive that almost took our pitchers head off. I go back to bmoser posts about the Gwinnett kids hitting blasts that appeared to be impossible and took great issue with him and the posts until one day I saw one of the blasts and realized that all great things are possible with hard work and if you possess natural baseball gifts beyond measure.
Is it the bat or the batter producing these hits?
Papa, I have never seen your grandson hit, but I do think it is possible with the right kid with the right training (and the right pitch left hanging:-). My 12 year old son has cleared a 300 foot fence with a wood bat. So, it is not the bat. Sure, if he could use last year's "hot" bat it would go even further. But a powerful, well trained batter can still reach the cars in the parking lot with just about any bat.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 12:28:52
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| Thank you Decatur Dad and I agree that the kid using the bat is just as important as what kind of bat he is swinging. |
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funnyhop
74 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2012 : 15:29:22
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14U AGE GROUP WILL BE ALLOWED TO SWING A DROP 5 CERTIFIED LABEL "BPF 1.15" OR A DROP 3 BBCOR BAT. ALL OF THE BATS THAT DO NOT HAVE EITHER LABEL WILL NOT BE ALLOWED.
Now, let's see. I have a juiced up "certified" bat (which is just a BESR bat with a silly label), or the BBCOR tin can. I wonder which bat 14 year old travel teams will be choosing? Duh........... Funny how all the kids are now using the same 1 or 2 bats throughout the 14U travel lineups.
Thing is, it is scary at 14U. The ball exit speed is unbelievable in a 14 year old's hands when they are using the 1.15 stamped BESR bat..........it is the same bat as last year.
In high school (JV included) the kids must use a BBCOR bat. The game is completely different.
Makes no sense. Why not just make every player use the BBCOR type bat from 5 years old through Adult and be done with it? I hope we are going in that direction. The kids who have good mechanics will be the ones who hit. The pop up, wrist flick, home runs from a 170 lb kid will be a thing of the past...........and the game will be much safer.
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F2202
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 15:00:55
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BBCOR only certifies -3 bats.
There will always be people that want to cheat, but they are only cheating themselves.
If a 14 year old chooses to use a bat that has been altered from the original manufacturer's design and someone gets injured, you'll see lawsuits. Not only will the coach be liable, but whoever tampered with the bat can also be liable.
As far as the umpires checking bats. Per NFHS, we are not checking all the bats and equipment before the games anymore. We are asking at the plate meeting about the bats and helmets, as well as if the players are properly and legally equipped. If a batter steps into the box with an illegal bat and it is brought to the umpires attention, by a coach or player, it is probably a good idea for the umpire to stop the game and check that specific bat. Is he going to know if the bat has been rolled or shaved, probably not.
As far as men's league softball, and travel girls softball, those rules are irrelevant to baseball. I don't have any idea if softball umpires are required to check bats and equipment before a game. In baseball we are not, its up to the coaches to monitor their team's equipment.
On a side note, the Marucci Cat5^2 33/30 is not legal. http://maruccisports.com/returns/ |
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bharbin
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 15:08:42
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With all due respect - No, you dont know who I was referring to. It's mighty presumptous of you to think that I was referring to your grandson but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Let me state this clearly, I dont know you or your grandson so I am not calling him or any team in particular a cheat. IMHO - these bats were present last weekend. You are certainly entitled to disagree with my assessment.
You and I both know that the Internet is full of illegal bats for sale. These bats aren't coming from the mfg. They're cured (rolled/shaved)in an after market process that enables the bat to perform to hotter than market specs. They're not "off the shelf".
Until there is a more sophisticated way of examining bats, tell me how are they to be detected? What's the tell? Or is there one outside witnessing the personality of the ball off of the bat? Probably not -unless one is confiscated after someone gets hurt and goes through some sort of forensic examination.
So let me be clear, the players(or their parents) and coaches that knowingly and willingly use these bats are the folks that "spit in the eye of the integrity of the game". I think you would agree.
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
bharbin: I don't know if it was my grandson that you saw hit the grounder that hit the first baseman's glove and went to the 300' fence or the long home run that he hit against Team Florida. The bat he used was a Easton Omen big barrel and has the stamp and was bought from a reputable bat company on the internet. The bat is in his bag and I can promise has not been tampered with in any way and can be checked by anyone at any tournament. The bat was recommended by one of our pickups from Team Florida and is a very hot bat but not altered.
You said and I quote that "The shame is, that the players that go to these measures to gain a competitve edge, spit in the eye of the integrity of the game and the potential harm of kids that are out playing by the rules.
I cannot speak for all but you can be assured that the only competitive edge this child has is hard work and countless hours in the batting cage. I am not sure if this is the player you were referring to but he meets the description and I can guarantee you that no one in this family has anything but respect for the game and would never do anything to spit in the game's eye.
Feel free to stop by any time and look at this bat. If it is illegal than I will let you me the one to throw it in the garbage can and I will be the new owner of the bat company.
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bharbin
19 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 15:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Papa agrees that it is not unrealistic for the umpires to do their dang job. The made the rules so why should we expect them not to enforce the rules. I want the bat checked so that it can be approved and then grown men might not feel the need to question a kid's ability to hit a baseball.
"grown men" also need to realize there are cheaters in this fallen world we live in and they'll go to unscrupulous means to create a competitve edge. i.e.,steroids, corked bats, emory boards used to surface the ball. Is it way off-base to think that this stuff won't show up in youth travel ball? I dont think so.
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monarch36
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 16:03:38
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| Acoording to a letter from Easton they took " thousands of bats in their warehouse " and etched in the USSSA stamp, these were " postporduction bats" and they will give you a letter, huh? So basically, it come down to Easton saving hundreds of thousands of dollars of old inventory. I really don't care, but either they are in or out. Last years Senior league big barrels will have the etched stamp and the newer ones will be smooth stamped. So the question remains? Are etched bats last years composite and the smooth stamped this years correct standard, and do both perform different? I belive that is what all the craziness is all about. 14yrs old hitting the ball 375ft really? again I don't really care, but come up with one standard. Let the dabate rage on......remember it's not about the kids safety, it's about money and winning. What a shame this as become. |
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mstimpson
57 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 20:55:56
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Papa agrees that it is not unrealistic for the umpires to do their dang job. The made the rules so why should we expect them not to enforce the rules. I want the bat checked so that it can be approved and then grown men might not feel the need to question a kid's ability to hit a baseball.
I agree as well! Check the bats! If I had to shell out $400 for two new bats to follow the rules, everyone else should as well. In the S-NIT, I witnessed a coach question a certain teams' bat every time a kid from the other team hit a line drive. It killed the momentum of the game. After the plate meeting each umpire should go to the dugouts and inspect the bats for the stamp and the coaches check with the umpires (opposing team dugout). Illegal bats should not even be allowed in the dugout! |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 21:29:12
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bharbin: I read back over my post and I don't think I said you were referring to my grandson. I only said that he fit the description of what you were saying and I wanted to be quick to let everyone know that to our knowledge his bat is legal and has the required stamp. I ordered the bat online and it was shipped to my home, we took it out of the plastic and began using it. I am the first to agree that it's a good bat and seems to have a lot of pop. I am not saying that it is legal or illegal and I just wanted make sure everyone knew that we assume that it is legal due to it having the proper stamp.
And let me also state that I also think that it's mighty presumptous of you or anyone else to accuse anyone of cheating with no proof whatsoever. Although I cannot disagree with you that cheating is most likely occurring I would never assume or accuse anyone and I mean anyone of cheating without some sort of proof other than they hit the ball better than they should have. I am aware of the companies advertising that they will shave and roll your bat and keep it stamped but find it so very hard to believe that anyone would be willing to take this type risk of getting another kid hurt just to gain a competitive edge. I guess I am naive and yes, I do know it happens.
I do respect your opinion and do not disagree with it but want to be clear that I know 100% that cheating is not happening on our team at 13U to our knowledge and that Easton and any other bat company should be held accountable if they are placing stamps on bats that should not stamped.
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SOGAS
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 23:21:13
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| We had one of our bats challenged 3 times by 3 different coaches. The problem in all 3 incidents was that these coaches do not even know the bat rules. The 1st ump came and got the bat in question, looked at it and said " this bat is legal" on the other 2 challenges during the weekend. Both of those umps asked the coach "what is it about the bat you are questioning" and each coach said "that bat is not usssa approved" 1 ump looked at the bat an said "oh yes it is". The other ump never physcally looked at the bat but asked "that bat there" yes it's legal. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 07:44:39
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If everyone is truly concerned about safety. Everyone should just use wood in all the tournaments. If all coaches agreed on it there would be no issues with stamps and cheater bats. Play it like the pros, no more 350 foot home runs, less bloop or check swing base hits. Safer all around.
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spliter
121 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 09:46:17
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| Baseballpapa...I agree with you. I practice at papa's place (not a Bandit). Our facilities and intructors are second to none. We spent all winter hitting avg. 250-350 swings a week. My son is not big but hits well and can go downtown. He hit one out when it was 57 degrees(est 245). First thing the ump did was check the bat. It was a aluminium Voodoo end of story. Now it is 80 degrees and we have gone composite. I expect greater distance over aluminium. Combine a hardworker with a kid that holds the school record for pushups 150/pullups 30 infield best stay wide awake. I agree lets go wood and Cooperstown should be nothing but wood. |
Edited by - spliter on 03/22/2012 09:54:02 |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 10:54:06
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| Wood bats might be the solution. The question that I would have is how easy is the wood bat to crack or break and what would type cost do you think would be involved. Are the organizations such as USSSA, Triple Crown, Nations, Perfect Game etc. committed to the metal bat companies. Could you imagine the loss of revenue these companies would experience if we went 100% wood. I have watched the bbcor bats and before we keep them we would all be better off to go wood as soon as possible. Let's start a national campaign and see if the consumer's can finally find a way to have a voice in the bat crap that is taking place. Does USSSA, Triple Crown and the other's have the b---'s to stand up to the Big Boy's and state that they are going wood only. In the name of safety this might be the safest way. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 12:45:11
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| UM, wrong on the wood bat front. Hell even in my day we would pop the top off an old Black Magic, and put raquet balls in there. You don't think kids and dads would cork the bats??? I say we all play with those big RED bats! |
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coach0512
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 14:23:54
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Wood would be great, but it'll never happen.
Buy a $50 wooden bat and you can go through 6 of them in a season before you spend as much as you do for metal.
But there are also composite wooden bats now, -5 wooden bats, is bamboo a wooden bat or would that be a controversy?
Travel ball loves controversy, wood won't stop much.
But it WOULD make everything safer till a big kid shatters a bat and the sharp end stabs a third baseman then everyone will be calling for metal again........ |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2012 : 14:47:16
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| If we don't change the bats, the game will eventually require kids to wear pads. If you guys recall the story about the kid out in California that got hit in the head. It think Easton has been working with his family to explore a helmet for pitchers. Consumer protection/kid safety organization WILL begin to mandate changes sooner than later. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 07:26:41
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I agree with Beaux on the pads thing.
I do think there is a serious danger with some of these 1.15 bats that have "not" been altered. They should all go to a bbcor bat standard next season, They should not allow any bat that is not 2013 bbcor to be used at any level in a game.
Bat companies should have to design their new bats differently from years past to make it easy to identify the new bats. Bat companies could make another killing next season because everyone would be required to purchase a brand new bat. Either that or tournaments need to start providing 5 bats and each team use the same exact bats. Doesn't Cooperstown during the home run derby make everyone use the same bat? |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 09:35:48
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| Well, if policing the bats is such a problem, why not just move towards restricted flight balls?? Seems to work in other competitive sports - Softball has various levels of compression, which while not completely alleviating the problem ,at least make the attempt.. |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 10:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
Well, if policing the bats is such a problem, why not just move towards restricted flight balls?? Seems to work in other competitive sports - Softball has various levels of compression, which while not completely alleviating the problem ,at least make the attempt..
I think you make a great point. From what I have experienced so far this season. You can take almost any bat, I saw one from 2010, send it back to the manufacturer and get a stamp painted on it and it's legal.
No one is breaking the rules here but it's a big farce. |
Edited by - bkball on 03/23/2012 10:15:03 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 22:13:40
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LOL....BECAUSE THE BATS ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!!!!!! Same paint jobs/Same bats as last year, they put a little goofy stamp on it and mandated it because they knew that the parents would have no choice but to buy a new bat....Kinda like how tournament fees have continued to get higher and higher and higher every year with many of them on the same scrubby fields with no upgrades(last 3 years at the "Super NIT" not sure how super it is we have played on a field with a 4-6 inch mound(maybe)....and holes where the batters boxes are and down the baselines, not to mention those nice outfields!!) and the same poor officiating....As long as there is travel baseball there will be people trying to profit from it.....Problem is when the sanctioning bodies are the people fleecing the parents there aren't any other options other than don't play.
Pads on baseball players?? |
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Topic |
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"Illegal Bats" - What's being done?
