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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2011 : 07:16:17
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Maybe I am just naive, but I didn't realize these companies were out there until I ran across one shopping for bats on the internet.
Found a company selling virtually all the new 2012 bats, with u trip stamps that have been shaved and rolled.
Of course the site offers the disclaimer that shaved bats are no longer legal for league play, but without testing you would not be able to tell the difference between a shaved bat and a legal bat.
This begs a couple questions:
1. If organizations are serious about children's safety, what measures are going to be taken to insure the bats being used in tournaments are legal?
2. Shouldn't it be illegal to increase a bat's bpf rating without changing the rating label on the bat?
3. If a child is injured by a batted ball, and it is discovered that the bat has been altered in order to increase it's bpf factor, are there legal consequences, and who bears the liability, the bat owners parent, the company that shaved the bat, the organization sponsoring the tournament, or all three.
If these organizations requiring the bpf standards don't institute some sort of system to test bats being used in tournaments, then the rule itself is a joke. |
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WestCoastGuru
148 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 10:04:12
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I completely agree with you Peanutsr....I've always wondered a lot of the same issues that you listed above. Especially, when some of the tournaments that my teams have played in, the tourney directors have the bat rolling machine in the office or on the golf cart they're driving around in. I know composite bats are great, add offense to the game and make up for deficiencies in some swings...but do away with them all together and that would solve most of the problems of speculation of illegal bats!
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 11:16:41
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I am not as concerned about rolling per se. In theory you are just breaking the bat in sooner and taking it to a state that ,again in theory, it would get to anyway.
on the other hand shaving the bat to give it thinner walls and more trampoline effect is absolutely changing the structure and rating of the bat. |
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AgentRed
1 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 11:35:40
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| IMO, nothing has changed with the new bat rules except you now have to have a stamp on your bat. You can still use composite as long as it has a stamp. It's very sad. What will it take for real changes? I'm afraid even if some child gets killed (god please don't let that happen) they still won't ban the composite bats? You know the tournament directors probably won't have equipment to test bats. So you will never truly know if a bat has been shaved. The company's do such a perfect job shaving them you truly can't tell. Hopefully no one will get hurt this coming season as a result of composite bats! |
Edited by - AgentRed on 12/02/2011 13:27:54 |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 13:42:23
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| SAD indeed! I really thought that this was a very isolated problem, But if companies are actually advertising this, there must be a bigger market than I would have thought. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 13:55:08
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http://www.dtmba.com/mueller.pdf
As bad as the occasional injury to a pitcher is, the above study would seem to indicate the incidence of injuries at the NCAA level (pre-BBCOR) is quite low, and I'd assume it wouldn't be too different at the youth level since the speed of the pitches and batted balls should be much lower in general (even adjusting for the corresponding distance differences, I'd guess).
From my point of view, I'd like to see something that took the bat technology out of the picture so that you couldn't just buy better performance, but I'm not sure how you do that without going back to wood since it seems likely that any non-wood bat would be relatively easy to tamper with. Haven't heard much about BBCOR bats being altered, so maybe extending that to lower levels would help, or maybe it's just a matter of time until they start getting altered as well. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 17:03:05
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http://www.batrolling4u.com/shaved_rolled_bbcor_baseball_bats.html
This is the sight I ran across. They advertise a large selection of pre-rolled, pre-shaved bbcor bats.
I am still amazed that a company can sell a bat that has a label certifying that the bat has a 1.15 bpf rating when they know that the rating is actually much higher. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 19:57:37
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| I like wood. But I also realize a lot of kids at the younger ages just are not strong enough to swing it. Maybe we need to go to wood at 13u? |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 20:04:59
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I only know about softball firsthand, but I know you can gain 40-50 ft without a problem..And every season at mens worlds in Disney somebody gets hurt and MANY bats get thrown out...It happens every year like clockwork...
I for one cannot believe that sanctiononing bodies do not have compression testing equipment.....They aren't that expensive but it doesn't seem to be a priority for USSSA or Triple Crown to purchase one and keep kids safe...Guess it would take away from the bottom line?!?! |
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2011 : 10:22:56
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My son (11) was hit last weekend in the Head while pitching. First off he is OK thank god.. One of the most scary moments as a father. The reason I bring this up is that this is a Huge problem here in Calif. For some reason parents think by doing this at young ages will help or advance their kid. I Know for a fact that a few of the better teams have players using illegal bats. I also let them know that they better not use that bat in any game we play against them. I also have seen a kid maybe 4ft 60lbs hit a BOMB 225+ on a half swing. Every kid on the team was using the same bat. So I walked over to their parents and a Coach and told them to put the bat back in the bag before someone gets hurt. A big fight insued and Tourney Director came over. Funny how the bat in question disappeared. The TD stopped the game until the bat showed back up. Needless to say the team broke up after that tournament..
I could never doctor a bat for my sons to use. I could not live with myself if another kid got hurt from a ball hit off the bat. |
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Marinersfan
57 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2011 : 21:51:44
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Good post. Glad your son is ok. Happens here too with some of the Elite teams. Not sure about at 11U like in California but was the case just a few years older. First clue is every kid on the team using the same bat and hitting dingers but hitting nothing but lazy flyballs in woodbat tourneys.
quote:
Originally posted by Calif_Baseball
My son (11) was hit last weekend in the Head while pitching. First off he is OK thank god.. One of the most scary moments as a father. The reason I bring this up is that this is a Huge problem here in Calif. For some reason parents think by doing this at young ages will help or advance their kid. I Know for a fact that a few of the better teams have players using illegal bats. I also let them know that they better not use that bat in any game we play against them. I also have seen a kid maybe 4ft 60lbs hit a BOMB 225+ on a half swing. Every kid on the team was using the same bat. So I walked over to their parents and a Coach and told them to put the bat back in the bag before someone gets hurt. A big fight insued and Tourney Director came over. Funny how the bat in question disappeared. The TD stopped the game until the bat showed back up. Needless to say the team broke up after that tournament..
I could never doctor a bat for my sons to use. I could not live with myself if another kid got hurt from a ball hit off the bat.
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snappy
33 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2011 : 22:27:44
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California,
I'm so glad your son is okay. My son is also a pitcher and that very same thing crosses my mind when he gets on the mound, as well as every other parent out there who has a child that pitches.
I won't speak for others but I would assume that we would all share the same opinion on this subject, with the exception of a few that just don't get it or care about another child's safety or well-being until it's their child that is pitching and someone else is holding that altered/modified bat in their hands. That might change the mindset.
Here is a thought for the parents/coaches who feel the need to do such things as using shaved bats. If you would like for your ball player/player's to have an edge, get of the couch or make time for your child or player's and work with them to develop into a better and stronger hitter. Reps baby!! I understand that we all want more distance but the exit speed that comes from the shaved walls is straight out wicked. A pitcher has very little time to react on a sharp line drive as it is already. Add more trampoline on the bat and you have just cut the reaction time down even more. Down right dangerous!
I completely understand your actions to this incident California. In fact, it sounds like you had a little more class about the entire incident rather than what I would have.
We all try to set a good example for our sons/daughters, as well as the rest of the kids on our teams and promote good sportmanship and respect but something like that would get the best of me. I don't think I would be real nice.
Shame on those that are doing it.
Did anyone go to the website and read the testimonials? Crazy isn't it.
SNAPPY!! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 04:44:36
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| there is a certain team in our area that has a kid who might weigh 80lbs who has hit a couple balls 270 plus.......ask them and they will just tell you the kid is a stud....wonder why the entire team uses the same bat tho?? |
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justletemplay
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 11:04:37
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| "Begin with the end in mind" Ultimately, it only matters if boys will be able to hit in HS or college with a BBCOR bat.....then all that is left is wood. A hit with a big barrel bat, composite, hybrid, turned, shaved, etc, are not helping develop a hitter. Hitters play and if you don't hit you sit. When do "hitters" sit? When they are injured or the team is up by a huge number of runs. If you don't hit well and If you can pitch you can PO and play every few days. Then you give up an entire season of learning, or more, of hitting and position play reps. Things change drastically once the boys reach HS.............and beyond. Start getting ready now or put it off, for glory now. |
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snappy
33 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 11:59:10
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Were the bombs on a half swing/check swing or normal swing? Just curious because we played a team this past summer and they also had a smaller kid that went dead center twice in one game on nothing more than a check swing both times. Majority of the team used the same bat as well.
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 12:40:37
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Fair warning to every team out there: If my son is hit by a batted ball the first thing I'm doing as a coach after checking on my son is go to home plate and retrieve the bat.
If it is determined that bat has been altered I will sue your team, the coaches, the park you play out of, the parents of the child who hit the ball and the tournament organization running the tourney.
If people refuse to be responsible on their own then we all should use the courts to make it happen. |
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bestplayinbaseball
67 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 15:46:16
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| Maybe if all our coaches discussed that at the plate @ the coaches/umpires meeting. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 16:42:37
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| I would like to here from some of the tournament organizers out there. They made the rule, how do they intend to enforce it? Obviously the stamp on the bat is worthless as an indicator of wether or not the bat is actually legal. |
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justletemplay
46 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 19:11:45
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that's a great suggestion. TD's should step up. Hate to have to call the cops to confiscate at bat, after the fact, because the TD's, umps and coaches used the "out" the bat had the stamp.
Everyone in the operating room gets sued if there is a medical mishap. No diff here. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 19:15:01
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| Thers no way to enforce it without testing each bat before each game. That wont happen. We dont even know if the bats are to spec when they come from the companies. Earlier it was said in another forum that they make one that passes and then just make the rest of the bats the same way. Each bat is not tested according to that forum. So how can anyone know. Nothing has changed since last year except making us all spend money on new bats. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 19:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Fair warning to every team out there: If my son is hit by a batted ball the first thing I'm doing as a coach after checking on my son is go to home plate and retrieve the bat.
If it is determined that bat has been altered I will sue your team, the coaches, the park you play out of, the parents of the child who hit the ball and the tournament organization running the tourney.
If people refuse to be responsible on their own then we all should use the courts to make it happen.
I'm with you here. Although, somebody better be bringing the bail money bc I will certainly demonstrate some behavior unbecoming to a woman. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:17:46
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First of all, I completely agree with your sentiment.
That said, how and what do you intend to do? If your kid is hit by a batted ball, which can happen to any and every kid on the field on every pitch, there isn't really any indication that the bat is doctored. You say you'll retrieve the bat. What does that mean? Do you intend to confiscate it (basically theft by taking)? Are you planning to pop off the end cap (destruction of property) to inspect it? I know that none of my boy's bats are doctored, but if you think I'm going to willingly hand over one of my bats to you for a few weeks because your kid happened to catch a line drive off the body, good luck. I don't have a stable of bats lying around, so I can't just let every coach who wants to take our bat do so.
All the new rules around stamping bats does is put and/or change the high limits on what the product manufacturers send out their doors. Before these changes, people were still doctoring their bats, they were just starting with something that was hotter to begin with.
The real problem is that there is no way to police and test bats at the places that they are being used, so there is no way to determine ahead of time that people are playing within the rules. Until that is possible, people without integrity will look for ways to circumvent the rules to get their kid an advantage, even at the expense of the safety of others.
These new stamps are just like gun laws. The only restrictions are placed on those willing to follow the law. If you're going to cheat, you will do so with or without any new restrictions in place.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Fair warning to every team out there: If my son is hit by a batted ball the first thing I'm doing as a coach after checking on my son is go to home plate and retrieve the bat.
If it is determined that bat has been altered I will sue your team, the coaches, the park you play out of, the parents of the child who hit the ball and the tournament organization running the tourney.
If people refuse to be responsible on their own then we all should use the courts to make it happen.
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:40:17
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There should at least be a way for an opposing team to challenge a bat. Similar to any other protest. You put up your money, if the bat is OK, you forfit the protest fee. The challenge is how do they test the bat? If the tournaments have the testing equipment, it could happen there.
Also, if a kid gets hit, (And I truely hope that never happens) what makes you think the parent would give up the bat? Let's assume the bat was not altered. Why would a parent give you the bat knowing you may sue them? With all the law suits today, you could get an "expert" to say the bat had more bounce then it should even if the bat was never alterted. Think about it: I think all of us would want to say we would hand over the bat, saying that is the right thing to do. But if you thought it through, would you?
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:48:25
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| A simple check would be to have an accurate scale. While there may be some slight varience from the manufacturer, a bat that has been shaved will weigh less. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 11:33:16
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| If you read up on these testin machines they say any dent or ding can cause a varience in the reading causing it to fail. Most bats Ive seen used in tournaments have some sort of dent in them , which according to what some say, would make them all fail. Alot of kids on a team will gravitate to a bat they see having success with other players. We had a bat last year that after certain players had success, the other players wanted to use. It seemed to give them an air of confidence at the plate. By the end of the season it was beat up bad and had to be taken out of service. Any bat after a while is gonna fail a test, just from use. All the stickers are doing, is keeping the honest, honest. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 11:41:12
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Not so, most shaving bats will also end load them. Shave out an ounce to give the walls more trampoline, and add the ounce shaved back into the end of the bat, increasing the swing weight, better distributing the weight for a power hitter. You'll see no variance in total weight.
I've made golf clubs for nearly 30 years. Swing weight and weight distribution is the same principal applied here.
quote:
Originally posted by Peanutsr
A simple check would be to have an accurate scale. While there may be some slight varience from the manufacturer, a bat that has been shaved will weigh less.
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Topic |
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Bat Shaving
