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Marinersfan
57 Posts |
 Posted - 12/05/2011 : 14:45:25
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| all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there. If one breaks in two and superballs come flying out of the barrel I'd worry about that at the time it happens. Until them I'm pretty confident their won't be much cheating. Plus, if your team can produce in the wood bat tourneys then that's worth something. Heck if nothing else, it will limit the amount of times I have to read someone brag about their kid's 350 foot shot with a juiced bat. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 22:58:57
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playing devils advocate here... Dont you think a kid who can swing hard enough to generate enough power to cuase serious damage with a line drive could do so whether or not the bat was altered? I mean getting hit by a car at 80 miles an hour will cause death, will getting hit at 60 cause you to die but be a little be less dead?
I dont agree with altering bats, if you need to cheat to win youre a chump. However, altered bats are like corked bats, they make balls that would go 250 go 270, not make balls that would go 150 go 250. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 23:51:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
playing devils advocate here... Dont you think a kid who can swing hard enough to generate enough power to cuase serious damage with a line drive could do so whether or not the bat was altered? I mean getting hit by a car at 80 miles an hour will cause death, will getting hit at 60 cause you to die but be a little be less dead?
I dont agree with altering bats, if you need to cheat to win youre a chump. However, altered bats are like corked bats, they make balls that would go 250 go 270, not make balls that would go 150 go 250.
I don't know about distances with baseballs but I don't think it would be crazy to say with a 44 or 47cor softball you can gain 40-50 feet....That is a lot, but it isn't the distance that is so incredible it is the exit speed off the bat. We play in one league that we can use whatever bats we want and some of the sticks those guys have are scary hot...The pitcher releases the ball and backpedals pretty fast!! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 00:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Marinersfan
all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there. If one breaks in two and superballs come flying out of the barrel I'd worry about that at the time it happens. Until them I'm pretty confident their won't be much cheating. Plus, if your team can produce in the wood bat tourneys then that's worth something. Heck if nothing else, it will limit the amount of times I have to read someone brag about their kid's 350 foot shot with a juiced bat.
Only problem with that is when little johnny gets hit by a broken bat ?? |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 06:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Marinersfan
all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there.
I agree with Marinerfan, at 13 and up I wish they would go to wood. I know some will argue wood is dangerous but I rather see my son pitching against a kid using a wood bat than a cheater bat or just aluminum. Until they make all the bats go to BBCOR standards. |
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 09:07:55
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| There are always going to be kids that hit the ball harder than other kids, I have seen 300 foot shots at the 12U level with a metal bat that was legal. But the assumption right away is that the bat is a "cheater" bat, it's really not fair to the kid who is playing by the rules. Composite bats are legal in USSSA next year if they have the stamp (even though they are exactly the same as last year), and the small barrel bats which I think are the most dangerous ones out there, are legal in most cases with no changes at all. I'm sure there is some bat shaving out there, but maybe I'm just naive to think it is very minimal. I would be fine going with just wood, I know my son loves the feel and sound hitting with a wood bat and he uses one for practice all the time. But until the organizations out there change their standards, and they would all have to do it to be consistent, I have no problem with kids using the best legal bats they can use. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 09:14:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Only problem with that is when little johnny gets hit by a broken bat ??
Spartan4, If your son is facing a powerful batter, would you prefer a wood bat or a legal stamped bat? - I am just wondering what bat you would see as more dangerous? (I am asking in all seriousness. Not to start anything.) |
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 10:09:40
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| Talking about this with a fellow baseball dad he reminded me that Nascar uses a ultrasonic gauge to read tubing thickness in the racecars at tech inspection. They take readings all over the chassis to make sure no one is using thin walled tubing. I looked up one of these gauges and found this company pretty easily. http://www.phase2plus.com/ultrasonicthicknessgauges/utg-2800.htm I found out these gauges are $795 and are VERY accurate for aluminum. The composite bats are a little harder because of the porous material BUT with multiple readings you should be able to gauge if the bat has been modified. Since WE (baseball parents) are having to buy these stamped bats I see no reason why a sanctioned TD's shouldn't be required to have these at their tournaments. If the TD hosts 100 teams in a season that would be a cost of $7.95/team to buy one. Take 2 entries of $5 gate fees from each team of that 100 and you have more than covered your $7.95, not to mention the charge for a protest fee that could be applied toward that and now the gauge hasn't cost a dime. There is no reason to have this rule with the bats if it is not going to be enforced. Seems to be a pretty cheap way to stop this kind of cheating. |
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bball2008
100 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 10:56:06
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Why can't the manufacturers design bats where if the end cap is removed the bat becomes permanently dead? That would solve the shaving issues.
Also saw a lot of big 11u and 12u kids on elite level teams at the elite 32 and nybc using a specific red small barrel drop 10 bat last season that hit checkswing or handle-shots 250 plus feet. According to a rep from the mfg, those bats are designed to help the kid with a lower skill level not the better players that have hit puberty early and are close to or already turned 13. You could make a case that even those bats could be dangerous to pitchers even if unaltered when used by kids that they were not designed for. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 11:31:48
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| The bat manufacturers have no incentive to stop their bats from being tampered with. If people see kids hitting the ball harder and farther with xyz bat, then that is the bat that parents are going to buy for their kids. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 20:09:36
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DecaturDad, I wasn't specifically talking about me...I have no issue with the wood bats and I feel it would sort out the talented kids even earlier. I was asking the question that with all the moms and dads who try to change a rule that has been around for 100 years because their kid got hurt....Case in point the older kids are taught to always slide straight to the bag and not perform a takeout slide, but some organizations have no rule regarding this...So the SS who has played all year expecting the runner to slide direct to the bag gets clobbered....Rules for baseball should be universal, not depending on which organization is handing out the trophies...JMO...There are too many rules as it is, wood would make this MUCH easier!!! My nephew is a smaller kid and he might struggle a bit, but he loves to use the wood bats in the cage and I think it would teach kids to rely on their skills instead of hot equipment daddy put in their hands so they can hit bombs and tell everyone what a big hitter he is!!!
About the red bat, it is a SUPER hot bat...but some of the big huge Bandits kids swung them and didn't hit the ball further than one or two kids a year younger in 11U who weigh 80.....I just don't think that is a coincidence.... |
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neverquit
128 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2011 : 22:20:02
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| Its just a difficult situation. How to prove without problems? Say the batter just hit the ball hard and little Johnny wasnt paying attention again. Your going to steal a bat from them and take it where? Are you going to give them a replacement bat in the mean time to keep you from being sued? What if it is found that nothing is wrong with the bat but little Johnny is playing up in a level he doesnt have the skill to be playing. Should we call DEFAC on the parent? At AAA/Majors the kids are drilled to hit the ball hard. Is the third or first playing too far in? Better think this out b4 you go Rambo. You may get hit harder trying to get the bat and in the courts than the kid not paying attention. From the beginnings of baseball someone always get hit. I pray it doesnt happen due to a shaved illegal bat. But I would like to see a parent try to take a bat from someone who knows their above board. WWE lol |
Edited by - neverquit on 12/08/2011 22:22:13 |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 15:15:04
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Ya know. It's funny how the hypocrites come out here and take an opposite view of someones post simply to be a contrarian.
Don't get me wrong, opposing views are welcome and thats how discussions are held, but, those who immediately start bringing up every bit of minutiae that could happen to poo-poo someones point are ridiculous.
Everyone who commented on my point of retrieving the bat at home plate are the same people who, when their son is holding an ice pack to his eye waiting for the ambulance, will start yelling about a doctored bat and threatening a lawsuit.
I should have been more specific: When my son is on the pitching mound (not just any player in the field) and after he has completed releasing the baseball and has assumed the proper pitcher fielding stance and the batter (who is of such a weight, height, build, etc of the type that would most unlikely hit a screaming, 120 mph line drive straight at the pitchers head) hits such an out-of-what-a-reasonable-person-would-consider-to-be-ordinary-for-that-batters-type line drive straight back at the pitcher and the pitcher is injured beyond a normal youth sports minor injury that we typically see at every tournament then, after checking on the health of my son, I would retrieve the bat and not steal it or pack it away or wrestle it away from another coach or parent or umpire or anyone else who might claim ownership of the bat and I would request strongly that the umpire get the TD to the field to inspect said bat. If any parent, coach or anyone else claiming ownership of said bat vehemently refused to allow the TD or umpire or other qualified person "in charge" to inspect said bat and tried his/her darndest to not allow inspection of said bat then I would use that as a tacit confession that there was something wrong with the offending implement and I am going to assume the party guilty of possessing and/or using an illegal bat. Most tournament rules state that equipment will be inspected for compliance so I would then request that the umpire and/or TD would then hold onto the bat so I can take multiple pictures of the bat in an attempt to have evidence of what bat was actually at the game in question and then, upon the legal filing of an incident report with the police authorities that have jurisdiction over the location of the incident and the filing of a complaint with the correct court system, a subpoena for the offending instrument would be released and such evidence would be properly inspected by those who have the means to do so and would swear a deposition to the same so that, in court, I could sue those I mentioned in my first post.
Now. Everyone start saying how there is no way to guarantee the bat presented for inspection is the same one that was used in the game even though pix were taken. I am sure the offending parent would spend hours at home with a new, undoctored bat recreating every nick and scratch to create an exact opposite.
Point being: Use a shaved bat, cause a serious injury and a legal poop storm is heading your way in one fashion or another. You can be sure that parent won't use it again. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 20:38:25
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Preach on brother!!! I'm with you. Some if these folks doth protest too much.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Ya know. It's funny how the hypocrites come out here and take an opposite view of someones post simply to be a contrarian.
Don't get me wrong, opposing views are welcome and thats how discussions are held, but, those who immediately start bringing up every bit of minutiae that could happen to poo-poo someones point are ridiculous.
Everyone who commented on my point of retrieving the bat at home plate are the same people who, when their son is holding an ice pack to his eye waiting for the ambulance, will start yelling about a doctored bat and threatening a lawsuit.
I should have been more specific: When my son is on the pitching mound (not just any player in the field) and after he has completed releasing the baseball and has assumed the proper pitcher fielding stance and the batter (who is of such a weight, height, build, etc of the type that would most unlikely hit a screaming, 120 mph line drive straight at the pitchers head) hits such an out-of-what-a-reasonable-person-would-consider-to-be-ordinary-for-that-batters-type line drive straight back at the pitcher and the pitcher is injured beyond a normal youth sports minor injury that we typically see at every tournament then, after checking on the health of my son, I would retrieve the bat and not steal it or pack it away or wrestle it away from another coach or parent or umpire or anyone else who might claim ownership of the bat and I would request strongly that the umpire get the TD to the field to inspect said bat. If any parent, coach or anyone else claiming ownership of said bat vehemently refused to allow the TD or umpire or other qualified person "in charge" to inspect said bat and tried his/her darndest to not allow inspection of said bat then I would use that as a tacit confession that there was something wrong with the offending implement and I am going to assume the party guilty of possessing and/or using an illegal bat. Most tournament rules state that equipment will be inspected for compliance so I would then request that the umpire and/or TD would then hold onto the bat so I can take multiple pictures of the bat in an attempt to have evidence of what bat was actually at the game in question and then, upon the legal filing of an incident report with the police authorities that have jurisdiction over the location of the incident and the filing of a complaint with the correct court system, a subpoena for the offending instrument would be released and such evidence would be properly inspected by those who have the means to do so and would swear a deposition to the same so that, in court, I could sue those I mentioned in my first post.
Now. Everyone start saying how there is no way to guarantee the bat presented for inspection is the same one that was used in the game even though pix were taken. I am sure the offending parent would spend hours at home with a new, undoctored bat recreating every nick and scratch to create an exact opposite.
Point being: Use a shaved bat, cause a serious injury and a legal poop storm is heading your way in one fashion or another. You can be sure that parent won't use it again.
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 22:37:13
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What it boils down to is, you have organizations that have instituted a new rule under the guise of "keeping the children safe".
The rule , as a matter of practicality, is unenforcable, and as someone mentioned earlier, insures that the people willing to cheat will have the advantage.
In reality, you have organizations that have been taking heat because new technology keeps improving the performance of equipment such that the safety of the kids(and therefore the liability of the organizations)is brought into question.
Their answer is to institute this rule that , again, is basically unenforceble, then wash their hands of the whole mess. When a kid gets hurt by an 80lb. string bean swinging a juiced bat they will be able to say, " well it had a USSSA bpf. 1.15 stamp on it."
I know Bubba reads many of these threads. Since USSSA seems to be the leader(at least in this area)as far as instituting the new bat requirements, I sure would like to here how his organization plans to enforce this new rule.
The silence from any of these organizations is deafening. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 08:41:28
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| I think the organizations are coming up with these rules to keep the honest honest. No matter what the rules , there are always those that will try to get the advantage. Our 10u team is a small team made up of those " Stringbeans" as you refer to them, but as alot of teams find out, can hit with most anyone. No matter what the bat , we have a few small players that continuously crush the ball with legitimate un doctored bats. The fact is , that most of these bats after broke in will not make the 1.15 minimum in my opinion. I dont think they came up with the rules just for liability, but in response to participants wants. I think if it was for their liability, the rules would simply state a size only, i.e., 2 3/4 and swing what you bring. I also believe that if they stated that way, we would all still be there too, playing every weekend. |
Edited by - Mad1 on 12/10/2011 10:16:45 |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 12:55:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad1
I think the organizations are coming up with these rules to keep the honest honest.
Not quite sure I follow. Are you suggesting that without these new rules the honest would become dishonest? |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 17:25:23
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| Thats not the way I meant it, but i can see how it could be read that way. I think that this is just a way to level the playing field from the manufacturer , didnt mean players, which is what we all want. Let the talent dictate the outcome. It gives the umpires and Td's a fast way to inspect bats to see they were built to proper specs that usssa deems appropriate. By placing the stamps on the bat , the manufacturerers accept some form of liability and wont fudge as much on the ratings and at least all starts equal. I agree with you that the enforcement of this policy will be a nightmare, as far as which has been doctored. |
Edited by - Mad1 on 12/10/2011 18:25:31 |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 23:40:59
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I don't agree that this is a way of leveling the playing field from the manufacturers perspective. Frankly, once the initial boon to sales from everyone complying with the new rules is over, I think this will hurt the manufacturers. Remember, it wasn't the manufacturers that started this, it was the NCAA/NFHS with the BBCOR rating, then USSSA with their restrictions.
I'm already seeing people buying bats for $99 - $150 since they are all relatively performing similarly. Before the restrictions, it was like the arms race; each manufacturer trying to leapfrog the other to get the highest performing, hottest bat. People were forking over $299 left and right to keep the hottest bat in their kid's hands. With the new restrictions, why spend $299 because you like the paint job. Now the performance difference between the $99 bat and the $299 bat is negligible and really making the justification to drop $300 and up difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad1
Thats not the way I meant it, but i can see how it could be read that way. I think that this is just a way to level the playing field from the manufacturer , didnt mean players, which is what we all want. Let the talent dictate the outcome. It gives the umpires and Td's a fast way to inspect bats to see they were built to proper specs that usssa deems appropriate. By placing the stamps on the bat , the manufacturerers accept some form of liability and wont fudge as much on the ratings and at least all starts equal. I agree with you that the enforcement of this policy will be a nightmare, as far as which has been doctored.
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2011 : 11:07:46
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| I didnt mean from the manufacturers perspective, I meant this is Usssa's attempt to make sure what we receive ,from the manufacturer, is on a level playing field. |
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Bat Shaving
