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drewmeadows
26 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2011 : 12:06:11
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| I have noticed a disturbing trend, especially in the 12-14 year programs where puberty makes a big difference. Appears that managers/coaches assume the 6' 2" 200 pounder is better than the normal size kid. I realize that is human nature, but I have consistently seen that "beast" chosen over the more talented, athletic, yet smaller kid. Sure, if the kid throws 80, can hit, and can fly, who wouldn't want him? But I have heard of many quality programs picking for size. The managers are "googly-eyed" over the "Beast" before even seeing him perform. A survey of MLB players confirms that you don't have to be huge as long as you are strong and athletic. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 13:42:12
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And some of us are seeing just the opposite.
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 14:16:35
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First, calling any 12 year old a beast bugs me. These are still 12 year old kids. That aside:
I think the "beasts" who have grown into thier bodies are a step ahead of the kids who are still waiting for that growth spike. Since many kids get a bit uncoordinated during that spike, why not take a look at those kids who are over the hump? Now I have seen plenty of big kids that would never make the cut on a higher level team because they just don't have the natural ability. But if I were looking for a player, I would give them a look and decide for myself. Who do you want at first base: the 4'10" kid or the 5'10" kid? I like the one with the longer reach. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 17:51:38
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The average MLBer is 6'1"+, 195+ (http://sportsologist.com/baseball-player-height-and-weight-by-year/), and I'm confident if you took the top 10 hitters in the AL/NL the majority of them would bigger than average. For every Dustin Pedroia size player there are several Chipper Jones size ones.
That said, my experience over the last two seasons has been that the typical 11-13u coach is definitely looking for speed and athleticism over size, which as a dad of one of those kids who's been growing faster than his coordination can keep up (5'1" to 5'11" in two years) can be both frustrating and amusing. With him turning the corner on the athleticism front, and the field sizes going up, I suspect he'll have an easier time adjusting than some. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 21:23:28
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| My understanding from what I have been reading is that colleges are starting to look for the more athletic, faster guys rather than the big hitters. This is due to the BBCOR bats. The game is going back to the basics where bunting, moving guys over, stealing bases, etc is becoming more important and sought after. Just food for thought. |
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Glove Smacker
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 22:08:41
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| A "beast" is a very talented player, not a huge player. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 08:26:26
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But the MLB uses wood so BBCOR does not effect them. 
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My understanding from what I have been reading is that colleges are starting to look for the more athletic, faster guys rather than the big hitters. This is due to the BBCOR bats. The game is going back to the basics where bunting, moving guys over, stealing bases, etc is becoming more important and sought after. Just food for thought.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 09:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
But the MLB uses wood so BBCOR does not effect them.
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
My understanding from what I have been reading is that colleges are starting to look for the more athletic, faster guys rather than the big hitters. This is due to the BBCOR bats. The game is going back to the basics where bunting, moving guys over, stealing bases, etc is becoming more important and sought after. Just food for thought.
I know that's said tongue in cheek, but MLB is looking for something different. VERY few kids will get drafted out of HS to the MLB. Most of our kids goals will be to make it to college first. Besides, playing in college (or HS for that matter) and hitting dingers with BBCOR will give a much more realistic feel for MLB as to who can hit there.
I think eventually everyone from 5 yr. olds to college will be required to hit with something like BBCOR. It's only a matter of time and the lower age groups catching up. Just to give a perspective, someone mentioned the rebound effects of .98 and 1.2 for softball and BESR. BBCOR rebound effect is .5. Much less bounce as well as a much smaller sweet spot. Eventually, the younger kids will experience that and the big, long hitters will be less sought after, just like is starting to happen in college. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 09:36:13
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For whatever reason (whole new discussion), the MLB hitting stats seem to be trending downward. If this trend continues, you'll see more emphasis placed on speed/quickness and less placed on size/ power. Look at the Braves adding Bourne and Constanza, for instance.
We could see the art of base stealing and small ball re-emerge at the MLB level, and that will trickle down to Minors, College, High School, ect..
For now, it seems the 14u+ ages are being restrained the most by the new bat regs, but I think it will wind up impacting 9U-13U similarly. This new USSSA stamp requirement might be just the beginning of deadening the bats for younger players.
I think a more profound trend in MLB towards contact hitters with speed could emerge in the years ahead. If so, this trend be reflected downward to lower skill/age levels over time.
Of course, big-powerful-fast is better than small-fast, so there will continue to be emphasis placed upon size, but I see the game favoring contact hitter+fast more so than big-powerful-slow.
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Edited by - bmoser on 08/31/2011 09:38:22 |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 10:36:56
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Eventually, the younger kids will experience that and the big, long hitters will be less sought after, just like is starting to happen in college.
I agree that a BBCOR-like standard will probably eventually apply to everyone, but no one is ever going to quit looking for power hitters, it's just that there may not be as many around without the equipment augmentation.
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I think a more profound trend in MLB towards contact hitters with speed could emerge in the years ahead. If so, this trend be reflected downward to lower skill/age levels over time.
Of course, big-powerful-fast is better than small-fast, so there will continue to be emphasis placed upon size, but I see the game favoring contact hitter+fast more so than big-powerful-slow.
I think we're unlikely to see significant changes towards speed/contact in MLB unless there are some huge systemic changes (move back to turf, bigger stadiums, further significant drops in offense which would probably be equipment driven with deader balls/heavier bats). Big-fast-strong has been the name of the game for a while now, take a look at the distribution of best power/speed seasons in MLB (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/power_speed_number_season.shtml).
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Black Bart
3 Posts |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 11:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by jacjacatk
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Eventually, the younger kids will experience that and the big, long hitters will be less sought after, just like is starting to happen in college.
I agree that a BBCOR-like standard will probably eventually apply to everyone, but no one is ever going to quit looking for power hitters, it's just that there may not be as many around without the equipment augmentation.
Yep. And being that there will be fewer of them around, those roster spots will need to be filled by someone. That will be the more athletic, faster kids who make good consistent contact, can run the bases well and can play good D. |
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Jack-of-Diamonds
152 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 12:16:14
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Does the BBCOR standard not also reduce the hitting efficiency of the smaller players too? The HR power hitter becomes a gap double hitter. The contact single guy becomes a DP risk. There are always exceptions, but size does matter. It always will.
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 14:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack-of-Diamonds
Does the BBCOR standard not also reduce the hitting efficiency of the smaller players too? The HR power hitter becomes a gap double hitter. The contact single guy becomes a DP risk. There are always exceptions, but size does matter. It always will.
Thank you for saying that.
I've yet to see a "slow" MLB player. What I see is big, strong, and fast. Sure there are some smaller and ultra quick guys, but is that going to be the norm? I think not.
And about that iPad comment...they should stop hitting baseballs with the iPad then. Heard it's worse than hitting with BBCOR!
All the dads of smallish players under the age of 14 need to stop freaking out please. (OTOH, if he's REALLY small, you might need to worry a little.) Y'all are starting to sound like you are just HOPING things are trending toward the smaller players because of bat regs. Seriously. It really sounds that way. Get the kid some hitting lessons and stop trying to do everything yourself. I'm not trying to be mean, I've just seen too many dads out there reinforcing really bad habits in the name of getting reps. 500 swings a day doing it the WRONG way isn't helping junior.
The big strong kids at 14 are having no issues hitting the ball hard (far) with the new bats and that extra 10 feet isn't a big deal after all. The reason is that puberty makes up the difference. My kid is getting down the 90' line in the same amount of time he got down the 80' line 3 months ago and is hitting with BBCOR just as far now as his -5 juicy bat from 3 months ago.
There's also a lot more hair under his arms than 3 months ago. Coincidence? I think not. |
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reallycoach
64 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 17:40:59
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| Any thought on the downward trend being affected by steroids ? Or lack of now that regular testing is taking place. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2011 : 21:08:15
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| My guess is that steroids were never really that big a portion of the increased offensive levels, and there's no good reason to think PEDs weren't being used on both sides of the ball, which should mitigate the effect somewhat. I've seen pretty convincing evidence that a livelier ball, thin-handled bats, and a preference for offense/power over defense (at least for a while) played a bigger role. And while it's starting to look like the pendulum is swinging the other way now, it's worth noting that there are ton more really impressive middle-relievers now, and benches are much thinner, which means hitters get to see far fewer guys pitching at less than peak effectiveness in any given AB. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2011 : 08:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by Jack-of-Diamonds
Does the BBCOR standard not also reduce the hitting efficiency of the smaller players too? The HR power hitter becomes a gap double hitter. The contact single guy becomes a DP risk. There are always exceptions, but size does matter. It always will.
Thank you for saying that.
I've yet to see a "slow" MLB player. What I see is big, strong, and fast. Sure there are some smaller and ultra quick guys, but is that going to be the norm? I think not.
And about that iPad comment...they should stop hitting baseballs with the iPad then. Heard it's worse than hitting with BBCOR!
All the dads of smallish players under the age of 14 need to stop freaking out please. (OTOH, if he's REALLY small, you might need to worry a little.) Y'all are starting to sound like you are just HOPING things are trending toward the smaller players because of bat regs. Seriously. It really sounds that way. Get the kid some hitting lessons and stop trying to do everything yourself. I'm not trying to be mean, I've just seen too many dads out there reinforcing really bad habits in the name of getting reps. 500 swings a day doing it the WRONG way isn't helping junior.
The big strong kids at 14 are having no issues hitting the ball hard (far) with the new bats and that extra 10 feet isn't a big deal after all. The reason is that puberty makes up the difference. My kid is getting down the 90' line in the same amount of time he got down the 80' line 3 months ago and is hitting with BBCOR just as far now as his -5 juicy bat from 3 months ago.
There's also a lot more hair under his arms than 3 months ago. Coincidence? I think not.
I agree but there are "slow" MLB players. Fielder, Ortiz (McCann?). I am sure there are a whole lot more.
They are all making millions a year. Heck, Ortiz gets paid over $10M and all he has done the last few years is DH.
Bottom line is if you can drive in 100+ runs a year you will be paid alot more and there will always be a premium placed on those players. Big-fast is obviously better but slow doesn't matter if you can rake.
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2011 : 11:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
Bottom line is if you can drive in 100+ runs a year you will be paid alot more and there will always be a premium placed on those players. Big-fast is obviously better but slow doesn't matter if you can rake.
So my 6 foot, 200 pound 12 year old who goes goes yard most weekends still has a chance? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2011 : 11:56:54
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Gotta give all catchers a free pass on the slow issue. The knees can only take so much! They'd better be able to hit.
Get rid of the DH and eliminate some of the slow. It's very simple. Then pitchers would have to learn to hit. Or not forget how to hit - LOL. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 07:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Gotta give all catchers a free pass on the slow issue. The knees can only take so much! They'd better be able to hit.
Get rid of the DH and eliminate some of the slow. It's very simple. Then pitchers would have to learn to hit. Or not forget how to hit - LOL.
Couldn't agree more. I Don't like the DH either.
I would also say that given the invent of middle relievers and closers during the "modern" era of baseball it has become tougher on hitters.
Hitting is one of the toughest thing in sports today. I heard something the other day that might be relevant:
What is 50% in baseball?
1) If you are a starting pitcher-mediocre
2) If you are a closer-terrible
3) If you are a infielder/outfielder-terrible
4) As a team-Minimum Goal
5) If you are a hitter-IMPOSSIBLE
If you can really hit, you will play.... |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 10:14:23
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11UFan:
I saw a kid get picked for a high AAA team the other day who didn't field all that well, didn't pitch all that well, but had above avg. speed.
He could NOT hit the baseball. Where's he gonna run so fast to?
Back to the dugout. SMH. |
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 17:21:43
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| Guys I wouldn't worry about it until you are 14-15, then look at your player. Every coach has a different eye and the way he plays the game. Some guys look for size, others look for speed it depends on the coach and group of boys. There are only a handful of "Beasts" that have strength, speed etc. You have to have a mixture of all it to be effective as a team. Travel ball creates another set of issues because you try and look for the best athletes, then fill in the position players from there. Let them grow up, stay out of the way and hopefully you ride will have been as fun as mine has been. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 09:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
11UFan:
I saw a kid get picked for a high AAA team the other day who didn't field all that well, didn't pitch all that well, but had above avg. speed.
He could NOT hit the baseball. Where's he gonna run so fast to?
Back to the dugout. SMH.
There is an old cliche-"You can't teach speed."
Maybe the coaches saw enough that they feel like they can teach him how to hit and field. Isn't that the point at young ages? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 11:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
11UFan:
I saw a kid get picked for a high AAA team the other day who didn't field all that well, didn't pitch all that well, but had above avg. speed.
He could NOT hit the baseball. Where's he gonna run so fast to?
Back to the dugout. SMH.
There is an old cliche-"You can't teach speed."
Maybe the coaches saw enough that they feel like they can teach him how to hit and field. Isn't that the point at young ages?
Is 14 going on 15 still considered young? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:02:16
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Yes it is IF, the player recognizes that there are areas that need improvement AND is willing to put in the work to improve. You never know when or how a player's development and athleticism will catch up or change the dynamics of what he is capable of doing. Most professional coaches will tell you that players get to them at the minor league level not knowing how to play and begin to get taught at that level. Likewise, how many professional HOF players will tell you that they got by on athleticism in their youth but had to learn how to truly play as the athleticism declined. A great example was mentioned during the AFLAC all-star game a few weeks ago when one of the players from Georgia was pitching. The kid was throwing low to mid 90's. He committed to Clemson as a shortstop during his junior year, but now that he's entering his senior season, is more likely to be sought after as a pitcher. A great example of never knowing when, where or how a kid will land. If you consider that a player has the potential of playing high school, college and beyond, 14 going on 15 is still VERY young and completely capable of being developed.
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
11UFan:
I saw a kid get picked for a high AAA team the other day who didn't field all that well, didn't pitch all that well, but had above avg. speed.
He could NOT hit the baseball. Where's he gonna run so fast to?
Back to the dugout. SMH.
There is an old cliche-"You can't teach speed."
Maybe the coaches saw enough that they feel like they can teach him how to hit and field. Isn't that the point at young ages?
Is 14 going on 15 still considered young?
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:35:27
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
11UFan:
I saw a kid get picked for a high AAA team the other day who didn't field all that well, didn't pitch all that well, but had above avg. speed.
He could NOT hit the baseball. Where's he gonna run so fast to?
Back to the dugout. SMH.
There is an old cliche-"You can't teach speed."
Maybe the coaches saw enough that they feel like they can teach him how to hit and field. Isn't that the point at young ages?
Is 14 going on 15 still considered young?
They either have 0 or, at most, 1 year of HS ball under their belt at that age. Seems young to me.
They talk about 19-22 year-olds "learning" to hit or "learning" to pitch in college or the minors. I certainly don't expect a 14-15 year-old to be a fully developed baseball player. |
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Why do managers always pick the "Beast" ?!
