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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2011 : 15:44:45
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quote:
Originally posted by mjones9226
As far as playing up I agree 100%. They should just want to play, and the kids probably do. Keep in mind the end goal here. That being said if it is against a rule, then how can you allow it to happen? What other rules do you ignore? Not saying it is a good rule, but. Could JB athletics go through georgia usssa and have it relaxed through them? I understand both sides, but question why you would not want to play against a younger age group playing up.
It's a no win situation for the older teams, if they beat the 10U team it's because their older and stronger but if they lose? How can you lose to a 10Yr old team? Bottom line, a 10U major team should usually beat an 11U AA team so what is in it for the 10U teams?? |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 15:58:33
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quote:
Bottom line, a 10U major team should usually beat an 11U AA team so what is in it for the 10U teams??
I disagree that a 10u major should beat an 11u AA team. You are not giving enough credit to the 11u team. What's in it for the 10u team is they get to play baseball for the weekend !! |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 16:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandit_Hawk
quote:
Bottom line, a 10U major team should usually beat an 11U AA team so what is in it for the 10U teams??
I disagree that a 10u major should beat an 11u AA team. You are not giving enough credit to the 11u team. What's in it for the 10u team is they get to play baseball for the weekend !!
Example, the 10U East Cobb Longhorns are beating most 11U AAA teams this year. Last year, they were like 12-1 vs. 10U AAA/major teams so.... |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 17:24:47
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| The Longhorns are an Elite level major team. They are not entered in this tournament either. You've chosen to cite the extreme as an example. |
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Triple
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 18:54:15
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| It's a no win situation for older players playing against younger players. It's like playing your younger brothers team. The older kids are a little out of sorts and the younger team uses this edge to their advantage. They take advantage going around the bases and the older ones are usually a little dumbfounded at the small ball. It's a big head game on the older ones at that point. It's a no win. |
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4 seam
46 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 20:12:59
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| Rules are put in place for a reason, period! |
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mjones9226
81 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 22:04:20
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| So is the TD for this tournament just throwing out the usssa rulebook? Are there not 5 teams that are 10u, and if so is that not enough for a small tourney? Have played in many 5 team events, and would rather play with more, but isn't that enough to make? Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but my opinion doesn't mean much against the rules as they are written. I have not read the rulebook about this myself, but if I understand correctly this TD is making his own rules that seem to supercede that of usssa's. Am I wrong or is it just for world series play? |
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bball2k10
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 22:04:36
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| Great post Peanutsr. My son plays on major team but we, as are the majority of people we play with, are not elitist. You make some great points. There is plenty of room for all to play that want to. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 22:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by 4 seam
Rules are put in place for a reason, period!
Unless all teams are in agreement with it... Come to find out none of these 11 AA teams (in this tourney)have a problem with the 10's playing. Go figure????????? |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 01:18:51
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Apparently I made an arrogant statement!....Sorry for ruffling the feathers, I was just trying to state an opinion of when I was still playing sports(a lot more recent than most posters on this site) playing the tough teams made my team better! There weren't 14 different organizations who all had 2-5 different classifications. I truly believe that some of these teams can compete, and they have boys on them who can play with just about any team around. They never get to figure that out because they are always playing down in a lower classification, or very rarely try their skills against the "elitists". If the top half of AAA played major and the top half of AA played AAA there would be the same amount of teams around, everyone would get to play baseball. The difference is there would be more tournament options for everyone, every single team. Instead the major teams get the shaft for being talented. Take a look, there are MUCH FEWER tournament options for major teams, and the simple reason for that is because travel baseball is loaded down with AAA/AA teams. Searching between the dates of 2/1/11 thru 7/1/11 for the 11U age group there are 59 major tourneys, 107 AAA tourneys and 125 AA tourneys. That is just USSSA, and it doesn't account for the unsanctioned local tourneys who say "open" and follow that line with "no major teams".. Because one major team will cause the 9AA teams to drop out. No TD would do that because they are there to make money, not appease one team over the rest of them. It is frustrating for the major teams and a very large reason for some sandbagging. Like I said before I have no problem with classifications I just think there are too many of them! This comes up every weekend with talk of man I wish we didn't have to drive 300 miles next weekend to find a tourney with more than two teams in it!! It is frustrating...
Also regarding the 10U EC Longhorns, last season they played up but were still playing on the EXACT SAME SIZE FIELD!!! This season it is quite different, as most coaches will agree the extra 4ft mound difference is quite an adjustment for pitchers. After playing the Longhorns last weekend when they were playing up I would assume they would do very well in this tournament, but I wouldn't just hand them the trophy prior to the start of the tournament. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 04/02/2011 09:42:17 |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 07:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bandit_Hawk
The Longhorns are an Elite level major team. They are not entered in this tournament either. You've chosen to cite the extreme as an example.
I thought the Yankees and Longhorns were competitive last season, no??
The longhorns are more then competitive on the 11U AAA level and are they even the best 10U team in the state?? |
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22202
263 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 08:32:02
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| Just my $0.02, but if a younger, smaller team can use their talents, and hard work to beat a bigger, faster, more experienced team than I say go for it! Don't we try to teach our kids that if you work hard, dedicate yourself, and have the drive and determination than anything is possible? When then, here's your chance...Go out there and compete and TRY to do what you're not suppose to do and that is beat a bigger, faster, more experienced team. This is my familys first year in travel ball and we are having a blast! The kids haven't won every game but we've worked, bleed, and gotten better. I recently went and watched a rec league game and MAN what a difference in the play. What a difference in my sons ability in less than a year. I think this is whats its all about personally. My family hangs out together every weekend, my son is improving playing baseball, and we are all having fun! All because of baseball! I know if my sons 9uAA team (its a new team with kids that never played travl ball) had the chance to take on a 10UAAA team and beat them, it would be SPECTACULAR!! I say let the boys play. The only problem I have is when an obvious AAA or Elite team is signed up to run through a tournament to get the hardware and a TD doesn't make them play up based on the other teams than that is pretty crappy. Now that my coffee has kicked in this morning, it's sunny outside, it's not raining, and good luck to everyone this weekend in their Tournaments! |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 10:07:05
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S4, you keep making this a major team issue. It isn't. Your nephew is an elite player playing on an elite team. By definition, elite means there aren't that many others like him or his team. The bell curve would imply there should be an order of magnitude more AA & AAA teams and, therefore, an order of magnitude more tournaments to supply them games. Frankly, that is going to make it more difficult for a major team to find major caliber games to play. That's not the fault of the AA teams like you keep trying to make it. It's simply the cost of being elite.
If I ever meet momshell, I will give her a big kiss on the cheek. Baseball is a sport for kids of all talent levels. As a former board member at Hopewell, I had the travel/rec debate often with fellow board members, and was continually amazed by some of the things I would hear. I think it's just as rewarding to take a kid who can't play the game at all and make him (or her) a better player. When I coached 8u rec, I got 4 boys who could not catch a ball when thrown directly at their glove to catch a fly ball in the outfield during a game by season's end. That is the pinnacle of coaching as far as I'm concerned. And, if one of those boys gets the bug and wants to play more baseball, but doesn't have the skill level at that point in time, then lower level travel ball is the perfect gateway to get them there where their potential takes them.
There will always be teams playing beneath their talent level, but for the most part these AA/AAA/major classes make complete sense to me and make it a better game for the majority of the kids, which is all that matters. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 10:14:56
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| I'm not sure tournaments should even give trophies out anymore. Would stop a lot of the ridiculous sandbagging from teams who play teams they know are weaker in an effort to win a tourney they were supposed to win anyway. |
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BatChipper
52 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 10:48:54
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| Prime example- Last year our son played on a 11u team. He was 10 so he knew alot of 10's that play travel ball and goes to school with alot of them. Played against a team that was a 10u major team(we were 11u AAA). Our son and us knew about 80% of the kids on the team and he went to school 4 or 5 of them. Well, it was a Fri. night game the forecast was calling for rain all day Sat & Sun so we decided to let our pitches get some work, letting one go each inning and change our batting order some. Well everything was going to plan had a 6 to 0 lead going into bottom of the sixth, with them still throwing their fireballer(he throw the whole game) and we put in our "#7" pitcher. We didn't even pitch our "#1" Needless to say they came back and put seven runs on the board to win the game. THATS ALL WE HEARD FOR THE WEEKS TO COME. HOW WE GOT BEAT BY 10U TEAM, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? THATS ALL MY SON HEARD AT SCHOOL FROM THE BOYS ON THE 10U TEAM IS HOW OUR TEAM SUCKS! YALL ARE NO GOOD. NOBODY CARED THAT WE WERE CHANGING OUT PITCHERS EVERY INNING. For me I could care less but for my son to hear that at school from the other boys, well its a shame. Believe it or not 10,11,12 year old boys can be every brutle with there words sometimes even though we teach them different. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2011 : 11:38:01
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| Andy, the main purpose for my complaining about major baseball and lack of tournaments is trying to in someway justify two 10U teams who want to challenge themselves by playing up an age group. The two teams in question are not nationally ranked, and would be competitive with AA 11U teams if for no other reason than a lack of practice on the bigger field(4ft is a big difference). Regarding classifications, other than USSSA don't most youth travel ball organizations have only two classes? Those organizations run smoothly and I have yet to see multiple posters complaining about the Triple Crown or Nations Baseball organizations or their tournaments. It is fun to see the AA team completely surprise the major team in TC tournaments, I think we can all agree on that. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 04/02/2011 15:23:11 |
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m72
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 02:35:27
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| I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way but unfortunately it's probably guaranteed that I will. I've tried posting this 3 times now but the wonderful software being used on here wipes out everything you've written if you accidently hit a certain wrong button while typing or if you try posting it without being logged in. Hopefully stan can fix that for me as it's not the first time. Anyway, "watered down" is an understatement for travel ball today. It's more like completely jacked up when you consider what it was created for, which was the best of the best IMO. If little Johnny has a bug to play more baseball then I'm going to assume that's why there's Fall rec ball now, as well as to give the non-football players something to do. When I played if you were one of the best then you played American Legion or All Stars if you were younger. Travel didn't exsist at 8,9,10 etc. I think it's great that it does now days but come on, does that mean we must have a division to accomodate every talent level. If so then you've just taken away the original purpose behind travel baseball. Don't get me wrong, I think the best of the best can fluctuate a bit so 2 maybe a small 3rd divison is o.k but letting all the little Johnny's have the same opportunity as the other hundreds of kids that worked their tail off to become a part of a league that's supposed to set you apart from the rest isn't right. Any Joe can put a group of kids together today and be a travel team but yet I know rec teams that would beat them. Today travel ball is judged by the team a coach is able to put together not the individual kids that actually have the talent to play travel ball for what it stands for. AA teams have kids that should be on AAA/major teams and vice versa due to what travel has become. Having all the little Johnny teams and divisions is like letting all the kids that struggle academically be in honors classes just so they can have the opportunity when they're clearly not honor students. It's called honors for a reason and travel for a reason. You start changing the meaning and your taking away from the ones that really fall into the category of honor student and travel players. It's become expensive rec ball for the most part. Okay, maybe that's a stretch but it seems to be heading there. Maybe majors wouldn't have such a hard time finding tourneys if they got rid of half these teams and put kids where they should be instead of them being so scattered out among divisions they don't belong in. What they should do is break it up by region in each state and have all kids that are or think they are travel talent come for an evaluation. You'll be ranked either AA/AAA/major or go play rec ball and try out for All Stars . Then creat teams from that. This way you have kids where they should be and no coaches throwing a kid on a team that shouldn't be there just to fill a spot while an unknown kid that should be there plays in a division lower than his talent. Then each year you'll be evaluated again. And for all of you that may read into that the wrong way, I'm not refering to my son or any other particular kid or team, I'm just speaking in general because it does happen. But I guess it's just easier to little Johnny have his moment. So the lines are open, fire away. Just remember, I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way. Of course if you're little Johnny's parents then I understand. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 09:12:14
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m72 and Spartan4:
I'd like to understand your points of view more clearly. Can you be more specific about what you don't like about USSSA's A,AA,AAA,Major system. Since USSSA is the only org I know of that has so many skill levels, I'm assuming this is the source of your frustration. Right?
Are you saying that all the other orgs' systems are okay with you, but not USSSA's? How many 12U travel teams should there be? How many 12U levels should there be?
What are the specific issues the current system possesses that is adversely impacting your family?
Are you frustrated because some boys on your teams are weaker and probably don't belong there? Or, is it that your team cannot find strong enough competition because all your opponents teams are so watered down? I'm having trouble putting my finger on the root causes of your frustrations. How exactly does having weaker players around adversely impact your Worlds?
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 09:38:18
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I think this thread has grown into a new topic.
m72, I see your point but as long as there is a parent that wants their child to play and a dad that will volunteer to coach, there will be many teams. It's not all the kids though. Parents start teams because they don't get along with other parents or coaches some times. I agree that there should be some basic standards of ability in order to start a travel ball team amongst the players. This starts at the rec ball level by starting with fundamentals and basic baseball knowledge. It won't change. If you don't like what you see, stop playing. This is not aimed at you "m72" just a general statement IMO. Things have changed since I (a lot of us)played ball.
Back to topic, Let any team that shows up and wants to play...play. If they are of a younger group why would some teams be scared? Major or not, they have shown an interest in a tournament and would like to participate in it. Take their money and good luck to all. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:03:57
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| Poor little Johnny gets bashed again. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 10:32:21
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I'm a bit tired of the complaint that "travel ball is watered down."
There are A league softball teams and D league softball teams. What's so bad about having people compete against like competition, be it at the kid level or the adult level? [And, yes, some D league softball teams have some players with A league talent because people want to play with their friends instead of playing at the "highest level."]
Why shouldn't the best players in a certain area be able to play together, even if all of them aren't at the Majors level? If you're a majors level player, why should you be forced to travel an hour to East Cobb a few times a week to practice and play with players of "like" ability, instead of playing with some of your friends who might be at an A level or might be a AAA level? Maybe the best players in a specific town can't rise to the level of a Majors team (even though they have a few kids at that level), but they still want to compete with their friends against other teams?
Maybe the increased participation in travel ball is due to the watered down rules of Rec ball? [Everyone gets a trophy, rotating positions, etc.]
Maybe kids just want to be sure that they're playing baseball on a team with their friends against other teams of friends (which you can't do on rec ball due to drafts) and they don't care if they're considered a 'majors' team?
I doubt many kids complain about the "watering down" of travel ball. It seems like a parent-made complaint that somehow their kids are "less special" because Johnny down the street is also on a travel ball team and "Johnyy calls himself a travel ball player and I know that Johnny isn't as good as my son."
To me, travel ball shouldn't primarily be a status symbol, so a parent can brag his or her kid is on a travel team. It should be about kids playing baseball and improving/learning/competing/enjoying themselves. You can do that at an A level or a Majors level.
And, perhaps some of the players who are able to play travel ball because there is an AA level can grow up to be better players than the Majors player who burns out because he's playing 80 games a year and driving 1 hour both ways every year since he was 9. Who knows? |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 11:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by m72
I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way but unfortunately it's probably guaranteed that I will. I've tried posting this 3 times now but the wonderful software being used on here wipes out everything you've written if you accidently hit a certain wrong button while typing or if you try posting it without being logged in. Hopefully stan can fix that for me as it's not the first time. Anyway, "watered down" is an understatement for travel ball today. It's more like completely jacked up when you consider what it was created for, which was the best of the best IMO. If little Johnny has a bug to play more baseball then I'm going to assume that's why there's Fall rec ball now, as well as to give the non-football players something to do. When I played if you were one of the best then you played American Legion or All Stars if you were younger. Travel didn't exsist at 8,9,10 etc. I think it's great that it does now days but come on, does that mean we must have a division to accomodate every talent level. If so then you've just taken away the original purpose behind travel baseball. Don't get me wrong, I think the best of the best can fluctuate a bit so 2 maybe a small 3rd divison is o.k but letting all the little Johnny's have the same opportunity as the other hundreds of kids that worked their tail off to become a part of a league that's supposed to set you apart from the rest isn't right. Any Joe can put a group of kids together today and be a travel team but yet I know rec teams that would beat them. Today travel ball is judged by the team a coach is able to put together not the individual kids that actually have the talent to play travel ball for what it stands for. AA teams have kids that should be on AAA/major teams and vice versa due to what travel has become. Having all the little Johnny teams and divisions is like letting all the kids that struggle academically be in honors classes just so they can have the opportunity when they're clearly not honor students. It's called honors for a reason and travel for a reason. You start changing the meaning and your taking away from the ones that really fall into the category of honor student and travel players. It's become expensive rec ball for the most part. Okay, maybe that's a stretch but it seems to be heading there. Maybe majors wouldn't have such a hard time finding tourneys if they got rid of half these teams and put kids where they should be instead of them being so scattered out among divisions they don't belong in. What they should do is break it up by region in each state and have all kids that are or think they are travel talent come for an evaluation. You'll be ranked either AA/AAA/major or go play rec ball and try out for All Stars . Then creat teams from that. This way you have kids where they should be and no coaches throwing a kid on a team that shouldn't be there just to fill a spot while an unknown kid that should be there plays in a division lower than his talent. Then each year you'll be evaluated again. And for all of you that may read into that the wrong way, I'm not refering to my son or any other particular kid or team, I'm just speaking in general because it does happen. But I guess it's just easier to little Johnny have his moment. So the lines are open, fire away. Just remember, I didn't mean to rub anyone the wrong way. Of course if you're little Johnny's parents then I understand.
Well said, but I think the big motivator is the parents and kids are sold the fact that the only way to make your high school team is to play travel. Thinking about the park my son played at, if only the top 10% of the kids left in the 10, 11, 12 age groups actually left to play travel and the other 90% stayed behind, it would have made for a really strong rec league and at least 2 really good All Star teams and being on a travel team would tell you a lot more about a player than it does today.
I have no idea how you put the toothpaste back in the tube. I'm through with the process now. I can't say I miss dragging a bunch of 12 year-olds out to Cumming at 6 AM on Saturday to play 3 or 4 games and then AS A REWARD FOR WINNING doing it again on Sunday. Not sure how that prepares you for HS. My son's JV team hasn't had to do that yet and looking at their schedule, they won't. And looking at the varsity schedule, he won't have to in the 4 years he plays for his HS. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 13:38:39
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Whats also interesting is the Dacula 11u team is really a AAA in the GGBL but in this tournament they are AA. This team beat the 10u Signature Park. Last weekend the GA Mudcats played in a nations tournament with AAA/Major teams with EC braves, Shiloh Titans, Ga select red to name a few. If your going to police the rules I guess you should police all age groups and classifications and every tournament?????? Especially the ones that don't care if there's some 10u teams in it.... Two of the 4 10u teams were eliminated in the 1st bracket game. It seems wierd all that talk of its against the rules, its not fair, emotionally scared, school smack talk. Its just the game of baseball. The game of baseball is about failing 65% of the time to be in the Hall of Fame.....
Like I said before if it bothers some teams they should just play in another tournament???? Then they can pick and choose who they might win or lose against. |
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m72
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 16:27:23
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| bmoser- I wish I had a more clear answer for you man but I said it the best way I know how. I don't really have a problem with USSSA. I have a problem with what travel baseball seems to have become compared to what it meant and was created for when I played. I guess it's like anything in life though, at some point everything changes. I just think it should fall under the saying of " somethings never change " and let it be for those it was intended for. loveforthegame25- not picking on or bashing little Johnny, it's just something little Johnny should have to work hard towards in rec ball instead of creating a division for him so he can say he plays travel baseball. Every kid should have the opportunity to experience travel ball but only if he works hard and becomes the player it was intended for. Maybe if rec ball did what it's supposed to, travel ball wouldn't have this issue. My youngest has been playing for 3 years and I can honestly say he hasn't learned a thing from the coaching. It's not all rec parks and coaches but I'd say alot. I'm done here cause I alone will not change anything. |
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bball-fan
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2011 : 20:47:52
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quote:
To me, travel ball shouldn't primarily be a status symbol, so a parent can brag his or her kid is on a travel team. It should be about kids playing baseball and improving/learning/competing/enjoying themselves. You can do that at an A level or a Majors level.
Unfortunately, too many parents do just want the bragging rights of being able to puff their chests and say "My son plays travel ball." |
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Gausssa question
