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baseballnutz
427 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2011 : 23:55:13
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| I can tell you it was tough for my son during his younger years of Dizzy Dean Allstars with an early March birthday. We had 9 kids with May/June birthdays and the boys where all a year ahead of him in school, I know this hurt him his 1st year with his confidence but he worked hard for more playing time. His 2nd year he started in the infield with a different coach that believed in him and his confidence soared. Another topic maybe how many coaches take a kid's birthday into consideration when picking their team, if 2 kids have equal/close ability will a coach look for the older kid in the hopes he maybe more mature. I know years ago I did it when picking my rec teams. Just a thought. I know my son's 1st coach was very aware of his age and made many comments about how scappy he was for being so young. |
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Triple
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 07:16:00
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| IMO kids should just play their age and their grade. If the birth dates lined up this wouldn't be an issue and more kids would play longer. They would have a chance as opposed to having to play against kids a year older, bigger and stronger. Now they start moving over to lacross. Maybe the school year needs to change to align with youth baseball. Of course everyone could just home school and keep their kids back that way. Just doesn't make sense. There are those who don't want their kids taking honors classes and AP classes because they want the high GPA. Kids need to be challenged not take the easy way. I agree with caughtstealing, some just aren't comfortable with their kids being in the middle of the pack. |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2011 : 16:41:34
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| As a father of a son who has a birthday that enables him to " play down" as opposed to play with his grade, I struggled with this decision. In the end, i decided that the critical factors were playing time and his physical maturity(puberty). My father(who played semi-pro ball) always taught me that to get better you have to play with those that are better.While I believe that this is true, the operative words here are " play with those that are better". I beleive that baseball is about repitition and in the end, I just decided that he would get more reps by playing down. It had nothing to do with not wanting him to be average on a better team.He has now made the transition to his grade level and made the fall freshmen team and hopes to make the spring team. His body has changed and he can compete with those that are older but in his grade. Believe me, 6 months can make a difference. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 07:27:36
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| what is semi-pro ball? I have had 2 people tell me they played semi pro baseball in the last week. I did not want to ask. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 09:35:11
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| I don't know what "semi-pro" means either, I would assume an independent league?? Also, depends on how long ago they played, my mothers father played for the Indian and the Orioles in the 40s ,50s and he used to tell her if wasn't in the show and was in the minors he would often need a second job!! I would be willing to bet he thought that was semi pro! |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 11:56:13
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| I am not sure what it means today but my dad played for the San Francisco Seals back in the early 50's. They were an independent team and a member of the old Pacific Coast League. I believe that they later became affiliated with the Giants. |
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coach0512
123 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 20:50:22
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| There is a national semi-pro association that teams join generally from the upper midwest and upper east to northeast. I used to watch semi-pro games back when I lived in Massachusetts. Don't know if they are still operating though..... |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2011 : 23:07:39
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| Sounds like a new topic needs to be started ... |
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baseballnutz
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2011 : 23:14:50
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| If 8 kids on avg have the May-July birthday on the elite teams as someone wrote earlier aren't they playing right where they are supposed to be? The rule is what it is, I don't get this "playing down" when your playing within the rule - "playing up" I get. I fell like my son with his March birthday is playing up, 7 kids on his team are a grade ahead of him. |
Edited by - baseballnutz on 02/01/2011 09:11:44 |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 09:37:01
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How many on your team would not be allowed to play if the date had not changed.
2 on my sons team. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 11:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballnutz
The rule is what it is, I don't get this "playing down" when your playing within the rule - "playing up" I get.
Exactly !! |
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Frozenrope
10 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 11:09:43
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IMO-It seems like a lot of thinking and maneuvering? I feel besides a bit of luck, good fortune, and good ole athleticism scouts evaluate a player on how they envision his future performance with some minor treaking and physical development.
Take a pitching scout, he will evaluate not on size (or age) but whether or not a pitcher can get a hitter out at the playing level he’s at with his “arm action throwing from his arm angle”. Pitching delivery is one aspect that will oftentimes determine the long-term , pitch-ability and repeat-ability of a prospect not the calendar month the player was born in.
Enjoy your player, develop his talents (athletically and academically), seek competition, and most of all look out for him…if it’s in the stars than he’ll thrive and catch a scout’s eye otherwise you both can some day say it was a great ride. |
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baseballnutz
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2011 : 16:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
How many on your team would not be allowed to play if the date had not changed.
2 on my sons team.
We play 10U so our group has only played with the May 1st cut date, that may be where the "playing down" is coming from in the older groups. Our team using Aug 1st would have 7 kids that would have to move up. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 08:08:58
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| I think the poster who used the term "playing down", meant playing baseball with those a grade below you but still within your proper baseball rules age group. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 08:48:40
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| what year was the date changed? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 09:29:37
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2005 or 2006. I personally don't think it matters at the younger ages. I don't see a reason not to play your age, regardless. Once you get to HS, you should really play your class. The main reason for this is, if you are planning or desiring to play at the next level, it will be harder for the scouts to figure out what is going on. So, if this year, you are a 2012 grad, but are playing on a 16 yr old team, I don't think that is a good thing. Scouts are looking much more seriously at 2012's this summer. 2012's would generally be 17 yr olds. They may just be getting an eye out for 16 yr olds to put on their radar, but they will be heavily recruiting 2012's over the summer. I would say that goes for playing up at this age as well. If you are a 2012, but play on an 18 yr old team, there will be fewer college scouts. They all assume most good players have committed already.
But, like I said, for the younger ages, it doesn't really matter. Play to have fun and learn the game. The kids' true talent will be tested and measured when they get to HS. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 14:07:47
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I don't think it matters at all. Ive got a kid on my 13u team who is actually 12 (he just turned 12 at the end of january) and this kid is as nice as any 13 year old centerfielder out there. Offensively and defensively he can compete and excel with kids a year up from him AND hes got a late birthday for his own year.
I think older players can have an advantage as their bodies are stronger and more developed, however a strong well developed kid with talent can be right there with him. |
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yarddog
48 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 15:33:50
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| bballman is spot on with his assessment, especially with the 17 age group. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 02/03/2011 : 16:13:47
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nastycurve:
How would you account for the lopsided proportion of travel baseball players with May,June,July,August birth dates as opposed to April, March, February, January?
Wouldn't you say that the one player you have playing up is in the minority?
I think in Rec, All Stars, A, and AA, it matters a lot less, but at the AAA and Major levels, it matters quite a bit. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 10:37:25
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I wonder if all these Dads/Coaches of older players thought 9U-14u didn't matter when their player was 9-14? I'll have to look at today's 17U posters to see if any of them posted back in 12U 
If it doesn't matter, why do we have 11u, 12u, 13u ect., and not 11-12, 13-14, or even 7-10, 11-13? Why do Rec leagues have all-stars? Why does travel exist? Why don't we all just play together and have fun? How many of your High School's teams' players never played all stars or travel ball?
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Edited by - bmoser on 02/04/2011 11:17:08 |
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biggin
174 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 11:00:44
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| My son plays 11u with july 31st birthday good for baseball terrible for football we decided when it came time to start school to hold him back 1yr the only reason bein academic.its funny this past football season were we play they allow older lighter kids to play down. So we had a kid in 8th grade playin on same team as my son who is still in 5th grade. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 11:38:41
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I am sure we all can agree that some of the boys who have post May birthdates have a little more advantage in the younger age groups. Because most of these young men are a grade level ahead of their younger counterparts. But as each year goes by those positives start to equal out amoung those players with Jan-Apr birthdates as compared to those with May-Dec birthdays.
Now the equalizer and being able to put the shoe on the other foot that the younger Jan-Apr birthdate players have that the May-Dec players dont is the fact that they will have the ability to hold themselves back one grade level prior to entering high school and still able to complete their eligibility time table. Whereas those with May-Dec birthdates would not.
My son who is homeschooled will not enter high school for his 9th grade year until what should be his 10th grade year. This allows for more physical and mental development. There have been studies that show kids who take this route have a higher grad rate than others. This applies to not only high school but also college. Not to mention the obvious effect it will have on their sport.
Sure there are advantages and disadvanatges for some of these young men presently within the context of the organizations we are discussing who have these cutoff dates. However lets look at other organizations out there that are not really being applied to this discussion.
How many of you would love to play for Baseball USA? Did you know that the age cutoff for Baseball USA 14u and up is Jan 1st. Now based on that cutoff date those young men who have Jan through Apr birthdates now have that age advantage over those with May - Dec birthdays. American Legion which is a highly watched and recruited from baseball organization has an Aug 1st rule. This rule states that a player must be 13 years old by Aug 1st in order to play. Again those with those Jan- Apr birthdates as compared to those in their current say Usssa age bracket will have the advantage age wise over their current age division players with May-Dec birthdates.
Lets also not forget that its Baseball USA who makes these suggestions for other organizations to follow for rule changes IE: Age Cutoff Date. The last I heard within 2 years Baseball USA will suggest that these baseball organizations move the cutoff date to Jan 1st. This is being considered because it will meet all other international as well as Baseball USA's own personal cutoff date. |
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coachpitch
66 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 12:41:35
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Hey Gman-We are doing the same thing with my son for a lot of reasons and baseball is secondary. We had a hard time thinking of him going to college as a 17 year old or barely 18.
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
I am sure we all can agree that some of the boys who have post May birthdates have a little more advantage in the younger age groups. Because most of these young men are a grade level ahead of their younger counterparts. But as each year goes by those positives start to equal out amoung those players with Jan-Apr birthdates as compared to those with May-Dec birthdays.
Now the equalizer and being able to put the shoe on the other foot that the younger Jan-Apr birthdate players have that the May-Dec players dont is the fact that they will have the ability to hold themselves back one grade level prior to entering high school and still able to complete their eligibility time table. Whereas those with May-Dec birthdates would not.
My son who is homeschooled will not enter high school for his 9th grade year until what should be his 10th grade year. This allows for more physical and mental development. There have been studies that show kids who take this route have a higher grad rate than others. This applies to not only high school but also college. Not to mention the obvious effect it will have on their sport.
Sure there are advantages and disadvanatges for some of these young men presently within the context of the organizations we are discussing who have these cutoff dates. However lets look at other organizations out there that are not really being applied to this discussion.
How many of you would love to play for Baseball USA? Did you know that the age cutoff for Baseball USA 14u and up is Jan 1st. Now based on that cutoff date those young men who have Jan through Apr birthdates now have that age advantage over those with May - Dec birthdays. American Legion which is a highly watched and recruited from baseball organization has an Aug 1st rule. This rule states that a player must be 13 years old by Aug 1st in order to play. Again those with those Jan- Apr birthdates as compared to those in their current say Usssa age bracket will have the advantage age wise over their current age division players with May-Dec birthdates.
Lets also not forget that its Baseball USA who makes these suggestions for other organizations to follow for rule changes IE: Age Cutoff Date. The last I heard within 2 years Baseball USA will suggest that these baseball organizations move the cutoff date to Jan 1st. This is being considered because it will meet all other international as well as Baseball USA's own personal cutoff date.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 13:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I wonder if all these Dads/Coaches of older players thought 9U-14u didn't matter when their player was 9-14? I'll have to look at today's 17U posters to see if any of them posted back in 12U
If it doesn't matter, why do we have 11u, 12u, 13u ect., and not 11-12, 13-14, or even 7-10, 11-13? Why do Rec leagues have all-stars? Why does travel exist? Why don't we all just play together and have fun? How many of your High School's teams' players never played all stars or travel ball?
bmoser, little history on me and my son. He is 17 now, so I fall into the above category. 1st of all, I'm not sure if I posted much if at all when he was 12u (he was actually 11 at the time - with a July birthday, he was last month before the cutoff, so he was one of the youngest to play the age group). 12u was his 1st year playing travel ball. Played rec until he was 11. First year playing 12u travel, he played for the Roswell Knights (this was a local rec travel team). Coach was terrible, so we decided to go with the younger Roswell Knights team - this was the year age cutoff changed, so he and 2 other kids decided to move to the new, younger team due to coaching. He played 12, 13 & 14 on that same team when they disbanded due to going into HS. He played 15 & 16 for the Georgia Hurricanes until they disbanded and at 17, he is playing for 643. We have never sought greener pastures. We have never gone to ECB. The reason for this is because he liked the team, he liked the coaches, he liked the kids on the team and he was having fun.
Now, did I realize at that time that none of this mattered? Maybe to an extent, but not to the extent that I realize now. Part of the reason for these boards is to hear from the people that have been there and maybe learn something from them. I will tell you this. I am not anywhere near being at the end of my learning curve. There are many, many people out there who have kids in college ball, MiLB and MLB that have much more knowledge than I do and I hope to learn from them.
I can also tell you that I always tried to keep the game fun for my son. I wouldn't crucify him for making a mistake or really get on him for having a bad day. We would talk about the game and I would try to teach him, but I was always aware of his reactions and I would try to cut it off if he wasn't open to what I was saying. Sometimes that meant leaving it alone until he was feeling better. Still to this day, he can come off the field and I can say "Wasn't your best outing, was it?" and he will just say "No, I stunk tonight" or whatever. We have a good relationship. I also know that from time to time he would ask about why coach had him low in the batting order. I would just tell him that if he wanted to move up in the order, he needed to hit better. I'd ask him if he thought that was true and he'd say yeah. We'd go out and hit some balls before the next game. My point with that is, I never blamed the coach for what was going on. If he wanted a different result, I let him know that he needed to work harder and improve to the point where the coach would move him up in the order, or put him in the position he wanted to play. Self-responsibility is what I tried to teach.
Anyway, I am getting long winded. My point is just that before my son got to HS, there is no way I could have known what I do now. However, I was not into him being on the best team out there, or switching teams to get him to greener pastures. If he was happy with the team and the coaches, I was happy. We played a competitive schedule and he was challenged - even though he wasn't on the Astros. That's all I wanted for him. Play against good competition, get better and have fun doing it.
I hope some of this addresses what "all these Dads/Coaches of older players thought 9U-14u didn't matter when their player was 9-14?". |
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Stinger44
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2011 : 16:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I wonder if all these Dads/Coaches of older players thought 9U-14u didn't matter when their player was 9-14? I'll have to look at today's 17U posters to see if any of them posted back in 12U
If it doesn't matter, why do we have 11u, 12u, 13u ect., and not 11-12, 13-14, or even 7-10, 11-13? Why do Rec leagues have all-stars? Why does travel exist? Why don't we all just play together and have fun? How many of your High School's teams' players never played all stars or travel ball?
bmoser, little history on me and my son. He is 17 now, so I fall into the above category. 1st of all, I'm not sure if I posted much if at all when he was 12u (he was actually 11 at the time - with a July birthday, he was last month before the cutoff, so he was one of the youngest to play the age group). 12u was his 1st year playing travel ball. Played rec until he was 11. First year playing 12u travel, he played for the Roswell Knights (this was a local rec travel team). Coach was terrible, so we decided to go with the younger Roswell Knights team - this was the year age cutoff changed, so he and 2 other kids decided to move to the new, younger team due to coaching. He played 12, 13 & 14 on that same team when they disbanded due to going into HS. He played 15 & 16 for the Georgia Hurricanes until they disbanded and at 17, he is playing for 643. We have never sought greener pastures. We have never gone to ECB. The reason for this is because he liked the team, he liked the coaches, he liked the kids on the team and he was having fun.
Now, did I realize at that time that none of this mattered? Maybe to an extent, but not to the extent that I realize now. Part of the reason for these boards is to hear from the people that have been there and maybe learn something from them. I will tell you this. I am not anywhere near being at the end of my learning curve. There are many, many people out there who have kids in college ball, MiLB and MLB that have much more knowledge than I do and I hope to learn from them.
I can also tell you that I always tried to keep the game fun for my son. I wouldn't crucify him for making a mistake or really get on him for having a bad day. We would talk about the game and I would try to teach him, but I was always aware of his reactions and I would try to cut it off if he wasn't open to what I was saying. Sometimes that meant leaving it alone until he was feeling better. Still to this day, he can come off the field and I can say "Wasn't your best outing, was it?" and he will just say "No, I stunk tonight" or whatever. We have a good relationship. I also know that from time to time he would ask about why coach had him low in the batting order. I would just tell him that if he wanted to move up in the order, he needed to hit better. I'd ask him if he thought that was true and he'd say yeah. We'd go out and hit some balls before the next game. My point with that is, I never blamed the coach for what was going on. If he wanted a different result, I let him know that he needed to work harder and improve to the point where the coach would move him up in the order, or put him in the position he wanted to play. Self-responsibility is what I tried to teach.
Anyway, I am getting long winded. My point is just that before my son got to HS, there is no way I could have known what I do now. However, I was not into him being on the best team out there, or switching teams to get him to greener pastures. If he was happy with the team and the coaches, I was happy. We played a competitive schedule and he was challenged - even though he wasn't on the Astros. That's all I wanted for him. Play against good competition, get better and have fun doing it.
I hope some of this addresses what "all these Dads/Coaches of older players thought 9U-14u didn't matter when their player was 9-14?".
Well said, nice post. |
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Baseball Success and Age Cut-Off Dates!
