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bmoser
1633 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2011 : 10:36:12
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GMan and CoachDan06:
Please help me to be clear on your opinions...
You both feel that where a players birth date falls within the allowable 12 month range has no impact on his chances of making it to the Major Leagues. There is no change in the probabilities of success, and all 3 studies are erroneous.
That is your opinion? |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 11:33:32
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moser i think it does have some impact early.
but in the long run its more about keeping early confidence level as it runs little kids out when they quit rather than should stay because they're ' behind ' .
again - ive seen it !!
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
GMan and CoachDan06:
Please help me to be clear on your opinions...
You both feel that where a players birth date falls within the allowable 12 month range has no impact on his chances of making it to the Major Leagues. There is no change in the probabilities of success, and all 3 studies are erroneous.
That is your opinion?
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 11:40:04
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My opinion is also based on facts that were not included in the MLB study. The fact that there are more births in the month of Sept than any other month and the fact that between sept and Dec there are more births than all other months combine.
So therefore I find the study skewed. If there are a greater number of people born between certain months then this would suggest that if you did a study on those people who received college degree's you would find that most of them were born between Sept and Dec. Does that mean that a person born in the month of April most likely wouldnt get a college degree. I dont think so.
My oldest son played for the Dodgers and Cardinals and he was born in April so even though you may have more players in MLB with sept to dec birthdates in my opinion it would be foolish to think that if you were not born within those months that you might as well just give up baseball LOL.
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
GMan and CoachDan06:
Please help me to be clear on your opinions...
You both feel that where a players birth date falls within the allowable 12 month range has no impact on his chances of making it to the Major Leagues. There is no change in the probabilities of success, and all 3 studies are erroneous.
That is your opinion?
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:09:33
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coachdan06: Thanks for clarifying. You are consistent with the studies by citing the psychological impacts of this topic, and we agree that it is magnified at the younger ages. I too have seen kids quit early on before they've had a chance to develop physically and/or psychologically. I think having the different levels of play has helped us to keep more kids playing baseball longer overall. Some of these Rec, A, and AA players that stick with it will blossom and make the High School team, and beyond.
One life skill youth baseball teaches is perseverance. The boys who have sub-optimal birth dates are being challenged to persevere more than the rest. |
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caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 16:41:37
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Why does anyone care how good their son is at 10,11,12 or 13 years old? My Dad had me playing a year up - not down - until I got to 16 where everyone had gone through puberty. If you were good - you always played up! Would any of you put your kid in a math class that didnt challenge him but made him one of the top students in the class? Unless there is a severe physical liablility (a 75-pound kid trying to swing a -3 bat) - ALWAYS PLAY UP, STUDY UP! Confidence is not taught by being sucessful or winning - we all know stories of successful people (winners?) that have dumpster fire personal lives because of their insecurties (not confidence!)
Confidence is taught by working hard at something and dealing with the outcome (good or bad)and figuring out, on your own, how to improve or change that outcome. Not have someone use a technicality or date to manufacture the result.
I hope none of us are gaging the success of our children based on an ERA, batting avg., W-L Pct., # of trophies, radar gun reading or even grades. Is all that really more important than the kind of person they are?
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 20:05:21
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Not sure I agree about playing up (for baseball)unless you are really really a stud for two reasons:
1) You can't reach your potential if you don't get the at-bats and the field time while playing games.
2) Baseball is a game of working your but off, reps, reps reps just to fail most of the time. You get a hit 30% of the time and you make it to the hall of fame! It is tough to keep competitive kids at the younger ages interested when they are faced with this reality.
Don't get me wrong, baseball is a great character builder and provides many life lessons but having the advantage of being older gives you the confidence to keep playing the game. (IMO)
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Edited by - 11UFAN on 01/19/2011 20:17:50 |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 20:38:29
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Bandit_Hawk,
May 1st was the compromise date. The attempt was to get it moved to Jan 1st, but the sanctioning bodies (Little League, Dixie Youth, etc, would not make that big of a jump. Especially since it was far off from the school cutoff. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 22:03:24
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| You're crazy if you think there's one right answer. It always comes down to what's right for the kid, given his particular circumstance. Blanket statements are silly. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 22:44:56
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Well I disagree with unless you are really a Stud you shouldnt play up. My son is 11 years old starts at shortstop and hits 2nd in the lineup for a 14u travel team and I dont consider him a stud. I agree with your comment that its tough to keep players interested when faced with challenges that seem tough to overcome. However without sounding like an ^%$# I would say those type kids are doomed before they even start. All sports not just baseball are made to create challenges and to create failure. Those that will have a greater chance to succeed are the ones who rise and try to outcome those challenges and failures they face not only in baseball but in life as well.
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
Not sure I agree about playing up (for baseball)unless you are really really a stud for two reasons:
1) You can't reach your potential if you don't get the at-bats and the field time while playing games.
2) Baseball is a game of working your but off, reps, reps reps just to fail most of the time. You get a hit 30% of the time and you make it to the hall of fame! It is tough to keep competitive kids at the younger ages interested when they are faced with this reality.
Don't get me wrong, baseball is a great character builder and provides many life lessons but having the advantage of being older gives you the confidence to keep playing the game. (IMO)
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 23:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SSBuckeye
You're crazy if you think there's one right answer. It always comes down to what's right for the kid, given his particular circumstance. Blanket statements are silly.
I agree 100% with you on this Buckeye. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 07:28:49
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G-Man,
If your kid plays shortstop and bats 2nd in the line-up at the age of 11 on a 14U team he is a STUD! You are absolutely right to play him up to keep him challenged.
Obviously every kid is different. All due respect, baseball is unlike most other sports when it comes to the constant grind of personally failing. I believe it is the toughest mental sport and that kids that can play down (unless they are like your son) should because it helps them stay at the top of their game and keeps theie confidence up at the younger ages. This makes it more likely that they will continue to play in high school or further when they are more mentally mature.
Once they get into MS and HS they have to play their grade (or up). I think my son will be more prepared mentally and physically than most due to playing down on a very competitive travel team.
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 08:51:24
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11U
I disagree, you should play with your grade I have seen several players who have played down because they could not compete with their grade. Once they entered HS they were clearly not prepared to compete at that level and did not make the team. If you can compete with a good AAA team with a good coach at your grade its just as good as playing on a major team a grade below. Keep in mind if your son is going from 13U 54/80 to HS 60/90 there is an big adjustment. If your playing 14U its not as big a change. |
Edited by - beanball on 01/20/2011 09:13:31 |
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Triple
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 09:05:06
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| Caughtstealing, I agree with you 100%. Your message is a good one. Once again, IMO if the baseball cutoff aligned with the school year this very question would not be as much of an issue. There wouldn't be the question of should my kid play down to be the biggest and the strongest. I also think that those smaller kids that leave the sport too soon because they are not as early on the puberty train would stay around a lot longer if they didn't have to compete with kids playing down from the grade ahead. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 09:42:29
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| Why do ~75% play down, and not play with their school grade? |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 10:24:21
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| The key thing about these types of analysis is they work toward "Probability" not "Possibility". They have done calculations, based on what happened, to determine the probability of things happening in the future. No where has any report ever said that it is impossible for a player to succeed if their birthdate is after a certain date. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 10:42:43
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| I guess another question might be. Is it better to hold a kid back in school so he can essentially "play down"? That would have no bearing on birthday just grade. Is it better for a College Baseball Scholarship to do this but not better for professional baseball? Colleges don't care how old you are, Pros probably rather have you as young as possible. I don't really know? |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 10:46:53
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So a player who falls within the guidelines of his age group but does not play with his grade is "playing down"? Is this just another excuse why some players are better than others? Maybe they are just gifted players or maybe they work harder or maybe both.
SSbuckeye hit the nail on the head - it's a choice to be made for the good of each player by his parents or guardians. Sure there will always be parents that put their kid in a "small pond" so that they appear to be better than they are but there are also those who do what is necessary to make sure their child is appropriately challenged. Sometimes that means playing up and other times it means driving long distances to ECB or Lynn Haven, FL or Ringgold, GA to make sure your kid is on a team where he is challenged.
Bottom line, it's not a black or white issue. The dividing line is blurry at best. If a parent chooses to abide by the age guidelines set forth in travel ball, Dixie Youth, LL, Dizzy Dean or whatever they are playing, then why are they wrong for doing that? Because someone else's kid has a bad birthday for the same sanctioning body?
"If so and so played with his grade he wouldn't even be in this age group and my kid would be one of the better players in this age group". This is what I hear from all of this. This is not the attitude of a champion. JMHO. |
Edited by - TAZ980002 on 01/20/2011 11:03:54 |
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thegoat
29 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 12:06:17
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| Great topic. There will always be a kid with a "bad birthday" does not matter when you make the cutoff. Kids with May, June, July b-days do have an advantage over kids with March, April b-days. It's not only size but maturity. |
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caughtstealing
20 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 12:11:23
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The date is the date and no one is "wrong" for abiding with that rule. I don't think it is as simple as they should play with your grade - I think they play with the kids that challenge their abilities.
We all know who some of these kids are - I'm not saying that all 6'1" 195lbs 15 year old kids shoudl play up - because every situation IS different - I am saying that if he is in 9th grade, has excellent skills and is 6'1", 195 lbs - why is he still playing with 14 year olds? If he is in 9th grade and playing JV, by the time he gets to play with his 14u team (April 20thish), he's practically 15 anyway.
Are we going to tell the High School coach that although my son is good enough to play with the varsity, I'd rather you play him on the freshman team so he can build his confidence? Yeah right!!! Why is this any different than at 11 or 12 or 13?
Just play, take a math class, play an instrument - whatever - with kids, people, others that are of your like ability - THAT will make you better.
There's a lot of people/parents who cant handle their kid being in the middle of the pack or having to "fight/earn" for playing time. Although this is not the case in every situation - this is primarily the elephant in the middle of the room! |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 13:04:22
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I think this would be another good topic but there are advantages from holding a kid back in school as it relates to high school play and being recruited for college. There have been studies done on this and from an educational standpoint the study showed grades were often better.
Again using my son as the example. He is homeschooled not for this reason but it will also be an advantage for him once he reaches high school age. By placing him in high school one year later than he is suppose to enter it will allow for that extra year of maturity, mental and physical development. This will give him an advantage most likely over other incoming freshman and hopefully allow him to contribute as a starter his first year. Therefore more exposure to college recruiters if he is a starter from his freshman year to his senior year.
quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
I guess another question might be. Is it better to hold a kid back in school so he can essentially "play down"? That would have no bearing on birthday just grade. Is it better for a College Baseball Scholarship to do this but not better for professional baseball? Colleges don't care how old you are, Pros probably rather have you as young as possible. I don't really know?
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 13:44:06
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Perfect Post Jim, two years ago we played up with Bandit_Hawk's 10U team...And while I am sure that mine can compete at that age group(he did it for 3 years) we now play "down" in our own age group. We didn't do it to avoid the better kids, my nephew gets more reps pitching as the #1-2 on an 11U major team than he does from being the 4-5 on a 12U major team. It is all about what you want for your kid, I'm pretty sure the lower classifications are better excuse for "winning" than an age. You could always let your kid play with his own age but down in the lower classifications, is that better than playing in your age but playing at the top?? I don't think so, he HAS to play down to be with his school class, not up. It doesn't matter if your kid is playing the best his age has to offer, and one determining factor is puberty, some kids from the 12U major teams weigh 160lbs, my nephew weighs 95 on a good day.
Sorry if this runs on, my phone is getting hard to use |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 17:39:40
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| Let me re-phrase my question...why do you all feel ~75% of kids play with some kids in the grade below them rather than play in the age group that has some kids in the grade level above them? |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 18:01:54
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Spartan4:
You nephew is fortunate to have the choice of playing 11U. If my son had the choice, I'd love to see him play 11U Majors. No matter how hard he works at his game, and how determined he is, he's still 90 pounds with a late April birth date. Sure, it will make him better in the long run, but let me tell you, it's a grind. He's had to play year round since age 5 just to stay on the field with the older and larger boys. He never could have pulled it off without the strong Coaching he's received.
Incidentally, that 10U Grip team was the youngest top 10 Major team I've ever seen. When my son filled in with them, we had 6 of 10 boys who were 9 years old, and another fill-in (the fastest runner on the team) was only 8. I don't think many folks knew that about the Grip.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 18:43:23
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| Yes sir Mr. Moser, I consider us very lucky that we have that option. I still remember the time your son filled in for us, that was a GOOD day.....Little AC sure can fly can't he??? |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 23:10:07
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| I guess my nephew is "playing down" as well. He is a 7th gradder playing 12u, but the majority of his classmates play 13u. He started school at an early age which makes him young for his grade. Academically and socially I believe he is where he should be as he is very mature but I'm afraid this might hurt him athletically. At this rate he will only have 1 year experience on the big diamond while his clasemates will have 2 under their belt going into High School. Maybe he will skip 13u baseball and jump to 14u. Personally, I don't think 54/80 is necessary. Back in the day we went from liitle league (46/60) straight to pony league/american legion (60/90) |
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Baseball Success and Age Cut-Off Dates!
