| Author |
 Topic  |
|
DuluthHardball
12 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2010 : 08:03:48
|
| I saw a lot of good baseball games this past weekend and some really good pitching. Unfortunately, I saw a lot of curveballs thrown by different kids. Can somebody give me at least 1 good reason why kids at 11U should be throwing curves? I am also scratching my head on how people are hiding them by calling them a different name. If it looks like a curveball then it is a curveball. |
|
|
TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 09:41:37
|
DuluthHardball, I think this is a personal decision for the parents of their kids. It's also not as simple as you present it. It isn't always a curveball because it looks like one.
It IS possible to throw a 12-6 curve ball that does not put pressure on the elbow like a traditional curve ball does. My son has been doing it for 2 years now. I've had both a sports related orthopedic surgeon and several pitching experts look at the mechanics of this pitch and they all agree that it does not present the potential problems that a traditional curve ball does.
My 9 year old is throwing a change up that many people think is a curve ball but it is not. It's a simple grip change that applies pressure on the outside of the ball and causes it to spin. It is thrown just like a fastball.
I do agree that some people are throwing a traditional curve ball and calling it something else. I don't see the point in that but that's their decision.
I'd be happy to show you both of the pitches my sons throw sometime and explain the mechanics of both.
With all that said, I think the main reason people thrown them is because the batters have so much trouble hitting them. Simple as that.
One other thing to consider - the famous Dr. James Andrews and his staff have done an extensive study that shows that the effects of a curve ball are no more detrimental that that of a fastball. In fact, their study shows that the fastball can cause more damage in some instances. They concluded that overuse is the biggest problem concerning arm problems with pitchers. Also, the kid who can throw a curve ball tends to be used more than one who cannot, because he tends to be more effective at getting batters out. |
Edited by - TAZ980002 on 03/30/2010 09:51:20 |
 |
|
|
Longhorn Fan
35 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:30:37
|
| I agree with Bandit Hawk totally and it can be in the grip of the baseball. Also, mechanics play the biggest role in arm problems. Also, pitch counts are something we watch very closely. |
|
|
|
stinger
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 23:31:08
|
I know we've gone thru this about a dozen times in the past couple of years, but it's worth it to me to get the correct information out there.
Hawk is both right and wrong on the Andrews study . . .
"My thought on it is you shouldn't throw a curveball until you can shave," Andrews says.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3505347
"Youth players who threw more than 80 pitches a game were four times more likely to need an arm operation than those who did not, according to the study." - New York Times on Andrews & Fleisig studies
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/sports/baseball/26score.html?_r=2
"The muscles of the flexor-pronator mass can provide support against the valgus force that damages the ulnar collateral ligament (UCL). When a pitch is thrown with the forearm in a supinated position throughout the delivery - as most pitchers throw their curveballs - these muscles do not provide the same support for the UCL. This makes UCL tears more likely even if there is no difference in the measured stress levels between pitches." - Texas Leaguers
http://www.texasleaguers.com/home/2009/7/28/curveballs-less-stressful-more-dangerous.html
I'm sure baseballdoc will chime in here soon. |
Edited by - stinger on 03/31/2010 09:19:54 |
|
|
|
Rocky
290 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:45:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Longhorn Fan
Also, mechanics play the biggest role in arm problems.
Mark Prior was suppose to have had the best mechanics since Ryan and Clemons and look at his injuries. Do we really know what proper pitching mechanics should look like to save arms. |
|
|
|
michaelp
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 11:13:27
|
| Mark Prior never recovered from a collision while running the bases it had nothing to do with his mechanics. |
|
|
|
Rocky
290 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 11:54:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by michaelp
Mark Prior never recovered from a collision while running the bases it had nothing to do with his mechanics.
September 2002
Strained hamstring while running the bases
Rest of season
Midseason 2003
Shoulder after on-field collision with former Atlanta Braves second baseman Marcus Giles.
3 Starts
Preseason 2004
Achilles tendon injury
2 months
Preseason 2005
Elbow strain
15 days
May 27, 2005
Throwing elbow - comeback line drive off the bat of Brad Hawpe
1 month
Preseason 2006
Strained shoulder
3 Months
July 14, 2006
Strained left oblique in batting practice
2 starts
August 14, 2006
Shoulder tendinitis
Rest of 2006 Season
Spring Training 2007
Shoulder surgery
Entire 2007 Season
March 26, 2008
Shoulder surgery recovery
First part of 2008 season (60 day DL)
May 16, 2008
A tear in the capsule of his pitching shoulder; shoulder surgery
Out for another six to eight weeks (60 day DL); out for the entire season
|
|
|
|
Wildcatmom5
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 12:09:00
|
| I agree the boys are way too young to be throwing curve balls. It puts too much strain on the elbow. My son seperated the growth plate in his elbow at 9 and we don't allow him to pitch at all right now. That was from just throwing the ball too much. |
|
|
|
TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 12:57:43
|
Here's a direct quote from Dr. James Andrews regarding curve balls:
Dr. James Andrews, the world's foremost athlete surgeon, and his team at American Sports Medicine Institute have recently finished extensive studies they say prove, conclusively, that throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball. That's the good news. The bad news? Throwing a curve early can lead you down a dangerous road.
"It's not the pitch that's the problem," says Andrews. "It's the fact that kids who are throwing curveballs at the youth levels are generally dominant because young kids can't hit it," Which means that the kids who throw curveballs at that age will be trotted out to pitch as much as possible—and to throw their 'out' pitch as much as possible.
He also says this in the same article:
"My thought on it is you shouldn't throw a curveball until you can shave," Andrews says. |
|
|
|
G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 14:38:15
|
Well I have coached other than youth baseball and I can tell you that these young men who throw CBs are doing damage to their arms. Its kind of like diabetes. Just because you have it doesnt mean it will kill you right away. If gone untreated it slowly breaks down your body and you will suffer the effects of the disease.
I have seen too many young men have arm problems. The key phrase here is throwing with sound mechanics. The issue is what may be mechanically sound for one player may not be for the other. Everyones physiological makeup is different. Some ligaments are thicker,some shorter,some longer,some weaker. No one body is the same but one factor is a constant and that is throwing a curve ball will put strain on the arm. How each individual player reacts to it, is whats different. Some players may not see the effects of throwing curve balls for 10 or 15 years. Others may see arm issues within 2 years.
No one can really say. We had a kid on our 11u team last year that threw a lot of curve balls. This kid is not playing this year because of TJ surgery. Mechanically he was sound but his arm wasnt able to handle the strain placed on it by throwing CBs. Another kid on the team threw just as many CBs and to this date hasnt reported any arm problems. However the kid that has the arm problems will now probably have only memories of 11u baseball for the rest of his life. But hey boy he sure struck out a lot of kids at 11u.
An example would be you see some pitchers throwing 3/4 some sidearm, some over the top. However if you switch anyone of these players around and have them throw different than what their bodies allow. Then you would probably see them develop arm problems. All types of pitches put strain on the arm and shoulder, but curve balls place more strain on the arm as a whole. The only other pitch I could think of that places more strain would be a screw ball.
My personal suggestion is to not allow a 11,12,13 and even 14 year old to throw a curve ball. Being able to change up speeds and hitting spots is all a good pitcher needs at these age groups. However some parents and coaches wont care what could happen to their player. So I say to those who allow them to throw CBs. Please do all you are doing is helping my son plus a lot of other hitters see CBs at a younger age than they should. This will better prepare them for later on.
quote:
Originally posted by Bandit_Hawk
Here's a direct quote from Dr. James Andrews regarding curve balls:
Dr. James Andrews, the world's foremost athlete surgeon, and his team at American Sports Medicine Institute have recently finished extensive studies they say prove, conclusively, that throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball. That's the good news. The bad news? Throwing a curve early can lead you down a dangerous road.
"It's not the pitch that's the problem," says Andrews. "It's the fact that kids who are throwing curveballs at the youth levels are generally dominant because young kids can't hit it," Which means that the kids who throw curveballs at that age will be trotted out to pitch as much as possible—and to throw their 'out' pitch as much as possible.
He also says this in the same article:
"My thought on it is you shouldn't throw a curveball until you can shave," Andrews says.
|
Edited by - G-Man on 03/31/2010 15:03:55 |
|
|
|
HAWKS8
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 23:23:32
|
I think all of you that know me have a good idea of my feelings about curve balls. I personally think an 11 year old with a good fast ball and a good changeup is just as effective. I have confidence in my defense and if they hit a pitch or two in a game without throwing a curve, that is fine. I can say I know a lot of the top pitchers in this area and I know how hard they throw a fastball. I firmly believe they would be just as effective at spinning poor unsuspecting batters in the ground with a good off speed pitch. I think I can find 10 people who say the stimulus package is good as well, but could probably find a few more that think it is a train wreck. As Bandit Hawk said, this is a decision each parent makes with their ball player.
I was thinking just the other day when it comes to hitting. When I was young there was a stance and swing we all had to learn. Now-a-days, we find that is probably not the best method. I for one do not have a doctors degree, but I know for my son, I will err on the side of caution and not let him throw a curve for a long time down the road. This is probably why he is not considered one of the elite pitchers which is perfectly fine with me at 11. |
|
|
|
Tball
142 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 22:16:34
|
| Some of you are right and some of you are wrong! Yes you can throw a pitch that looks like a curve just by the way you hold the ball. This pitch has no "snap" of the wrist. Watch closely a good curve has more use of the elbow than the wrist. The problem I have are the ones on this very message board who say they do not throw curves...when I have seen it. You are the ones who should be ashamed. When it becomes all about winning or afraid to become human and lose....Is it really about the kids. |
|
|
|
misfit33
77 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 12:21:58
|
| How is throwing a curve really any different than the kids that still don't get behind their fastball? I still see and warm up kids that throw a "dot" fastball. My son throws about 7 different pitches and has never had an arm issue. The knuckle curve tends to allow you to get behind the ball and still produce spin rather than a true curve grip. |
|
|
|
DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 15:00:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by misfit33
How is throwing a curve really any different than the kids that still don't get behind their fastball? I still see and warm up kids that throw a "dot" fastball. My son throws about 7 different pitches and has never had an arm issue. The knuckle curve tends to allow you to get behind the ball and still produce spin rather than a true curve grip.
Could you explain what you mean by a "dot" fast ball, or getting behind thier fastball? I am no pitching expert. Just the dad who wants to make sure his son is throwing correctly.
|
|
|
|
G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2010 : 15:17:20
|
Throwing curve balls is just like having Diabetes. Diabetes wont kill you if treated but left untreated and there will be problems. Curve balls are no different. You may not have any problems this week, next year or 6 years from now but at some point throwing curves at younger ages will lead to arm problems. I personally have seen this way too often. As I have mentioned before. My son doesnt pitch but others we face do throw curves and I appreciate them doing so because it allows my son to see those type pitches a lot sooner than he should have too. However I have seen kids in travel ball who can throw curves all this year but by the next they are either not playing baseball or have been told they will now need Tommy John surgery.
We had a great kid on my sons team last year. This kid had a great fastball and a nasty curve ball. The coaches took advantage of his curve ball and he threw it often. Boy he sure did have a lot of strikeouts. At the end of last years season the kid was told by a doctor that one more bad pitch could end his playing days and he was going to require Tommy John surgery. This year all the kid has is memories of 11u travel baseball. I saw him at a tournament this year and we got to talking. The kid had tears in his eyes because he knew his playing days were over. So my comment to all those who say well he hasnt had any problems with throwing curves. At this young age its only a matter of time. Ask any pitching coach for a Major league team and most will tell you that they would even prefer a kid wait till they reach the minors before learning to throw a curve ball.
quote:
Originally posted by misfit33
How is throwing a curve really any different than the kids that still don't get behind their fastball? I still see and warm up kids that throw a "dot" fastball. My son throws about 7 different pitches and has never had an arm issue. The knuckle curve tends to allow you to get behind the ball and still produce spin rather than a true curve grip.
|
Edited by - G-Man on 05/06/2010 19:22:53 |
|
|
|
Arnie66
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 14:55:53
|
| Have them throw a fb, changeup and a cut fastball. You can also without damage throw the "slurve" which puts little to no pressure on the elbow or arm,with the palm down. If the player continually rotates the palm up when attempting to throw the breaking pitch then the percnetages of potneital harm go up. |
|
|
|
zwndad
170 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 23:01:35
|
My 14U son started working on his curve ball in lessons when he was 12. He didn't throw it anywhere else. It helped him understand that he really was spinning his cutter, and that it was causing some elbow pain.
Two years later, now that he's shaving, he's started throwing the curve ball. Because he worked on it in supervised sessions for 2 years, he knew what he was doing. Worked for us, and I would recommend that approach.
Frankly, I think that throwing curve balls before you're shaving (or whatever maturity measure you want to use) is a lazy way to get batters out. Learn to locate and change speeds, and you can be successful ... especially if you have a defense behind you. |
|
|
|
HAWKS8
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2010 : 21:14:44
|
This topic has been asked almost every month since the message board came up. We hear the same comments every time. There are strong opinions on both sides. Those who do allow it will not be talked out of believing it is not harming. As someone stated "time will tell". I know for my son, he would be devastated if he could not play ball again. His life revolves around baseball. I personally would never take a chance for the simple fact I do not know for a FACT one way or another, but I always live by this one fact. When in doubt...don't do it.
I have seen a lot of these boys who can really bring the ball in. With a simple changeup I would guarantee they have just as many strikeouts. For those of you who throw them...try it. What could it hurt? Remember, it is 11 year old baseball. |
|
|
|
baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 07:31:23
|
| HAWKS8: That is about the best post that I have read on this subject. With 2 grandchildren near the curve ball age I have decided to listen to your advice and although I could probably find enough verificatation to prove that it was alright for them to throw the curve ball and not hurt their arms, I can also find about the same amount of verification that the curve ball will hurt their future pitching. After all is said and after all has been read I will choose to be careful and wait and teach them to throw their change ups a little bit better. |
|
|
|
gwinnettdad
16 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 10:50:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by HAWKS8
This topic has been asked almost every month since the message board came up. We hear the same comments every time. There are strong opinions on both sides. Those who do allow it will not be talked out of believing it is not harming. As someone stated "time will tell". I know for my son, he would be devastated if he could not play ball again. His life revolves around baseball. I personally would never take a chance for the simple fact I do not know for a FACT one way or another, but I always live by this one fact. When in doubt...don't do it.
I have seen a lot of these boys who can really bring the ball in. With a simple changeup I would guarantee they have just as many strikeouts. For those of you who throw them...try it. What could it hurt? Remember, it is 11 year old baseball.
Hawks, some of what you say makes good cents but some of it dont. You say you don't want to take a chance on him being hurt but your taking a chance every time he steps on the ballfield. A chance that he will take a line drive to the head and be hurt forever. A chance that he will take a bad hop to the face and brake his nose. I think the smartest thing to do is consult professionals about your sons mechanics and move forward with there opinion. Talk to professional pitching coaches and orhto docs. There are to many folks on these boards who claim to be experts and claim to have seen it all when in reality, they have a lot in common with one of those bathroom hand driers - they make a bunch of noise produce a ton of hot air !!! |
Edited by - gwinnettdad on 05/12/2010 12:10:59 |
|
|
|
Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 15:56:45
|
| Bottom line: People on this board are going to believe what they want to believe....No amount of arguing about it is likely to change opinions. My nephew is 10 and he receives personal pitching lessons from a former major league pitcher as well as a former D-1 pitcher. Both of these me who are paid to coach say the same exact thing, when properly thrown the tomahawk little league curve is no more stressful on the arm than a good fastball would be. A correctly thrown fastball will finish with the thumb down, same as with the correct little league hook. I have seen just about every major 10U and 11U team in the south and I can assure you more kids throw the adult hook than properly throw the little league pitch. The change-up is also extremely effective at younger ages and some coaches/dad prefer to use a change-up as a substitute for a hook. Also, my nephew has been throwing this pitch for quite some time and after our season last year I took him to an orthopedic surgeon and had his arm looked at(mainly growth plates) and x-rays and MRI's of his elbow were A-OK. Do what you feel comfortable with your player doing and stop judging other parents/coaches who allow their players to throw a different pitch than yours. GwinnettDad....funniest thing I have heard today, that quote is surely going in my book! |
|
|
|
ss7
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 16:52:37
|
| Curveballs can also be just a grip, it can just look like a curveball. |
|
|
|
ss7
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 17:46:56
|
| wildcat mom that was just chance no offense |
|
|
|
PumknHead
81 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 20:54:20
|
| The risk at this age is not worth it. A fastball with location and a good changeup will do wonders. |
|
|
|
bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 22:47:35
|
The real curveball bites downward and sideways, I have not seen the grip change result in the downward bite, just the sideways tail kind of like a cutter. I think using different grips, changing speeds, and locating works just fine. Nobody knows for sure if the real curve causes damage or not, so I'm not risking it at 11U.
I'm in the minority based upon how many real curves I'm seeing in AAA and Major level 11U ball. I can't say they are wrong either, and the real curve is very effective and may not hurt anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by ss7
Curveballs can also be just a grip, it can just look like a curveball.
|
Edited by - bmoser on 05/12/2010 23:08:52 |
|
|
|
highcheese
71 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2010 : 00:49:35
|
Folks, mechanics and technique are the key here. Most pitchers in the age group we are talking about get injured when mechanics and technique are not sound. Over use, getting tired late in a game, 95 degree day and it’s the 3rd game and has already caught a game and played short stop then the coach needs you to pitch the third game. And oh by the way you throw gas and have a great curve ball. Can you see the pattern being set up here for injury? Coach’s physical management of their athletes is important.
Where I see injuries happen with breaking balls is when a coach is not watching during warm ups, bull pen sessions, and sometimes at home. If a qualified coach monitors the grip, the type, and the mechanics of breaking balls then your kid should be fine. If the kid is "being a kid" and horsing around with breaking balls and snapping them this way and that when playing catch or trying to emulate a pro pitcher, wow, watch out for injuries to happen. Guess when the injury will happen and then the blame game starts? Kid throws a few breaking balls in a game and then comes out because his arm hurts. Coach’s fault, using too many breaking balls and killing the kid. Heck no, kid did a bunch of damage horsing around with breaking balls in an unsupervised arena. Also be careful of what happens when junior is home snapping a few off to dad or big brother in the back yard.
My big point here is to educate the kid on how to properly throw the pitch, when and only when to throw it under supervision, never warm up throwing it horsing around. The curve ball is just another pitch that has to be thrown with proper mechanics and technique.
Another tip on how to save little kids arms - get them away from wall ball with tennis balls. Great way to rag out an arm, throw a thousand tennis balls against the wall.
|
Edited by - highcheese on 05/13/2010 09:00:56 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
