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bball-fan
89 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2011 : 21:36:18
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What are your thoughts on being in a one day tournament and having your catcher pitch over 70 pitches in a game and catch the other 4 out of 5 games in a day?
What is the max limit a pithcer should pitch and catch?
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2011 : 22:35:38
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| if a kid threw 70 pitches then 1 game max behind the plate but not 4, that is nuts but seen it to many times. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2011 : 06:32:42
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| They say every 2 throws from the catcher is equal to one pitch from the pitcher. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2011 : 09:17:08
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I agree with insider. I game behind the plate. And if it is my son, I try to have him pitch first. That way his legs are not as tired when he is pitching.
Also,I find it interesting how everyone focuses on getting good pitching, but you also need a good catcher. I think those are harder to find. |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2011 : 11:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by bball-fan
What are your thoughts on being in a one day tournament and having your catcher pitch over 70 pitches in a game and catch the other 4 out of 5 games in a day?
What is the max limit a pithcer should pitch and catch?
was this a shootout tournament or full games? |
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Travledad
17 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2011 : 11:50:11
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| I agree with you completly decaturdad. A good catcher is just as important as a good pitcher. We have lost some close ballgames due to our catcher not blocking routine pitches. |
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Take 2
21 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 07:56:40
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| You ask this board that question....FUNNY!! A good catcher never works his arm hard throwing back to the pitcher. He should have been trained to just play "catch" with the pitcher. The only throws that matter are throw downs, which equal maybe 7-10 a game. So if the catcher is trained well he only has to worry about the fatigue of this legs/knees. This is not something parents should worry about. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:14:12
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Take 2,
A good pitcher also uses his legs. If his legs are tired from catching, he will not use good form when pitching. I would be interested in other's thoughts on how much strain a catcher puts on his arm in a typical game. I agree he is ussualy just playing catch, but that could be a lot of catch:-) |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:28:11
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A pitchers best weapon is his legs, without them he won't throw as hard & last as long.
quote:
Originally posted by Take 2
You ask this board that question....FUNNY!! A good catcher never works his arm hard throwing back to the pitcher. He should have been trained to just play "catch" with the pitcher. The only throws that matter are throw downs, which equal maybe 7-10 a game. So if the catcher is trained well he only has to worry about the fatigue of this legs/knees. This is not something parents should worry about.
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gtown71
86 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:47:28
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sad thing is when a coach has a kid behind the plate for 4 innings and then the next game he starts him on the mound in the championship game. this happened to us about 2 weeks ago and it showed.quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
A pitchers best weapon is his legs, without them he won't throw as hard & last as long.
quote:
Originally posted by Take 2
You ask this board that question....FUNNY!! A good catcher never works his arm hard throwing back to the pitcher. He should have been trained to just play "catch" with the pitcher. The only throws that matter are throw downs, which equal maybe 7-10 a game. So if the catcher is trained well he only has to worry about the fatigue of this legs/knees. This is not something parents should worry about.
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Take 2
You ask this board that question....FUNNY!! A good catcher never works his arm hard throwing back to the pitcher. He should have been trained to just play "catch" with the pitcher. The only throws that matter are throw downs, which equal maybe 7-10 a game. So if the catcher is trained well he only has to worry about the fatigue of this legs/knees. This is not something parents should worry about.
assuming the 4 games this kid caught were 5 innings each that is roughly 400 acts of playing catch between warm ups and game action, 75 throw downs of kids stealing and not to mention the 70 pitches in a game the same day.
How many parents would be ok with that much work in one day?
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Take 2
21 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:00:48
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DDad and Gwinnett your comments are the same as I was trying to convey. The concern is the kids lower body. Your legs and lower body is the most important "tool" you have as a pitcher and a catcher. A Pitchers workout is legs and core with light upperbody strength building with little to no above the head weight lifting.
My answer was in regard to the initial posters questions! It's a one day tournament(for the week)....do you truly feel this kid will hurt his arm or that there needs to be a "set number" of throws a Catcher can throw if he wants to pitch too. Also, I've never heard of a shootout where a team plays 5 games in one day (except 3 inning shootouts which are very rare these days or 1:15 hour games) which would make the 5 game comment not so BIG of a number, with the Catcher pitching one of them.
In reference to research and medical reports that everyone seems to be quoting all the time...the recommendations are base on ALL baseball players...past time sportmen to competitive (our guys) baseball. These recommendations are like the recommended usage on the back of a tylenol bottle. It says take 1 every 4 hours...you and I know we take 2...then we go to the doctor and the doctor says based on your size and fitness take 3 tylenol every 4 hours. My reasoning...our boys (Major and AAA) are pretty physical and are above average wouldn't you say, so I see where the usage recommendation everyone seems so "worried" about and want to judge coaches and parents, could easily be a littler higher....wouldn't you agree based on the athleticism of our guys vs regular joes?
I would have a different opinion if this happened during the heat of the summer months where we are playing full games every/every other weekend.
I'm intersted in additional opinions too, that's why I thought this post would be funny...we should get all kinds of thoughts on this issue. I might could be persuaded.
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:19:50
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| My son has been pitching & catching from the age of 7yrs old. He has caught in 2 games and then went to the mound and pitched and to this day he has never had any arm trouble. I think it is because you must keep them throwing not pitching all year round get their legs in great shape. It is all about the work your son put's in after the season is over. Every kid will not be able to do this, like I said it is how they take care of their body after the season is over. If the player can handle it and the parents say nothing then I am good. Each parent should know what their son can handle and every kid is different |
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Take 2
21 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 11:28:43
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| Insider, your assuming a lot with shootout games going 5 innings each. Unless it's a pitchers duel(which usually equates to less pitches per inning)you barely can get in 4 innings. With that said, your figures are elevated to sway the posters to your way of thinking. |
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 12:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Take 2
Insider, your assuming a lot with shootout games going 5 innings each. Unless it's a pitchers duel(which usually equates to less pitches per inning)you barely can get in 4 innings. With that said, your figures are elevated to sway the posters to your way of thinking.
true but nobody ever said that it was a shootout or abbrev games so my assumptions were based on full games which I think would be close. regardless tho, imho that is too much for 1 kid to do in one day even if they are major or aaa type kids like you say but to each his own. this can be debated like kids at this age throwing curveballs |
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Take 2
21 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 12:54:51
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Are we discussing a hypathetical here. I'm wondering where the 5th game of a shootout came from. Bball-fan are you sure about 5 games?
Shootouts are usually 6 teams (maybe 8 teams) that play in 2 pool brackets then the pool winners play for the championship. Where am I wrong! |
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FLABB
183 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 13:05:19
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| Bottom line is there are to many kids catching entire tourneys regardless of the pitching. Overuse was the focus of Dr. Aandrew's curveball study and this is one more example if it manifesting itself again. |
Edited by - FLABB on 11/02/2011 14:52:16 |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 14:49:40
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Catching 12-18 innings and pitching 3-5 innings all in one day on a REGULAR BASIS will definitely cause some type of injury (minor stuff to major stuff, depends on the kid) eventually. When parts of the body get tired other parts try to compensate and this is when real problems happen, especially when the adreneline is masking the body's warning signs. It is what it is, no matter how much anyone wants to convince themselves otherwise.
It will also impact a players performance due to the wear and tear on the legs, as some have mentioned the lower half is key to pitching & catching but also hitting and base running.
There is absolutely no upside to doing this other than maybe winning an ocassional piece of plastic. No coach I know would ever put a kid through this and if you asked any knowledgeable baseball or medical professional they will say that is way too much to put on a kids body and that the bad things that could come from it far out-weigh anything good that could come from it.
On the flip side if this is a once or twice a season thing then I totally agree with some of Take 2s and ONE WAYs responses. Competitive players combined with the most important comment ONE WAY made about the conditioning of the player would probably prevent any major issues from occuring but only if this is a once or twice a season thing, if this is done all the time no matter who it is, the likelihood of injuries/problems is very very very high.
If you are on a team that goes deep in tourney's then 99 percent of the time you have at least two catchers to share the load and most everyone on your team pitches so can't see why a kid would ever be in this situation anyway. If your team doesn't go deep, you don't have to worry about playing 5-7 games over a weekend.
Just not worth it to me. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 20:41:07
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I wasn't going to respond but I feel the need to clear up the facts about the catcher/pitcher in question. Bball-fan's facts were way off!
This was in fact a 4 team Sunday shootout. 1 hour 25 min time limit per game. We played 4 games for the day. Because of the shortened time limit these games only went 4 innings. The kid in question caught in 3 of the games, totaling 10 innings behind the plate. He also pitched 4 innings, giving up 1 run while throwing 65 pitches.
This particular kid does not have to throw to the bases very often because after he throws out the first couple would-be basestealers the other team shuts it down. I should also note, this is a special kid. He has never once complained of being tired or having a sore arm. I practically have to beg him to take his turn in the dugout.
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Take 2
21 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 21:36:23
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Oh, so now we know the facts. I'm sure to some of the Moon Walkers that regularly post on this board, they will have something to repremand you on.
I just want to add another eliminate to this issue based on the earlier responses to this post. What about the 1st basemen...he throws at least 15-20 ground balls to his infielders every inning, so that equates to about 90-100 throws per game......so should we say that the 1st basemen shouldn't be able to pitch if he's played 1st for 4 games. Shouldn't with your analogies, we say that if a kid pitches, catches and plays 1st in one day the coach is irresponsible and needs to be called out on it. See how ridiculous this numbers games can get.
Most coaches have a pretty good relationship with his boys and their parents. Us sideliners never truly know how much the coaches focus on keeping players healthy. Coaches are asked to teach and train our kids to get them to the next level and when the coaches go a little out of the "comfort" zone and challenge our boys to step it up a notch we have dust throwers...and posters on this board...questioning them. Let's respect our coaches a little more. |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 09:22:59
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take2,
A 1B does not throw 15-20 ground balls every inning, typically they get 2 each so that is 6 per inning and throwing ground balls is usually done in an underarm motion which is more natural and less stressful compared to an overhand throw.
As far as this case, if the kid can and wants to catch 3 games thats not an issue but I would not let the kid pitch the same day buts thats just me. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 10:12:30
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ecbpappi,
You might want to re-read my post. The player "appeared" in 3 games behind the plate totaling 10 innings which technically is not even 2 complete games. Just saying... since your a numbers guy. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 11:25:35
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Smash,
I would let my son catch 10 innings and also pitch a game if needed. Not on a regular basis, but a few times a season. I know my son, and I know he could handle it. I assume the player in question could also handle it. So in this case, I don't see anything wrong. (I was not at this game, so this is just my opinion.)
I do think that good catchers in general tend to get over used. They tend to be strong, o they are often also good pitchers. But that is a different issue.
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 13:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
Smash,
I would let my son catch 10 innings and also pitch a game if needed. Not on a regular basis, but a few times a season. I know my son, and I know he could handle it. I assume the player in question could also handle it. So in this case, I don't see anything wrong. (I was not at this game, so this is just my opinion.)
I do think that good catchers in general tend to get over used. They tend to be strong, o they are often also good pitchers. But that is a different issue.
Absolutley agree with Decatur. 10 innings catching and 4-5 innings pitching in one day with the right kid probably isn't a problem as long as its not done all the time.
At the beginning of this thread it was 5 games, 4 catching and one pitching. Thanks SMASH for providing the facts, makes much more sense now. It seemed impossible that a kid would catch 20 innings and pitch 5 in one day ever, in any tourney.
I guess it seemed impossible because it NEVER happened.  |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 13:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by SMASH
ecbpappi,
You might want to re-read my post. The player "appeared" in 3 games behind the plate totaling 10 innings which technically is not even 2 complete games. Just saying... since your a numbers guy.
smash,
you are correct although my response was more towards take 2 since he or she decided to list a bunch of figures. What happens with your team and players really should only be your guys business. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2011 : 14:02:16
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DecaturDad
Not hating, I probably have let my son do this before. Your Statement however is a little bothersome:
quote:
I know my son, and I know he could handle it. quote:
I think that sometimes we believe that just because our boys are athletic, they can do things others can not. Does having strong arms and core(muscles) make the tendons stronger? Do strong Legs prevent Knee problems?
We should probably all follow some sort of guidelines which take our bias' out of the equation.
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