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11UFAN
149 Posts |
 Posted - 10/26/2011 : 16:09:54
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This is a great debate. Maybe we should start a new thread "Best Tournament Format" . I would love to see a blind draw combined with the following:
1) 3 pool play games
2) No silver bracket
3) Only the top 8 teams make it to bracket play
4) 4 day tourney (Th-Su)
5) No more than 2 games per day until Championship series
6) All play-off games done on Saturday (1 and done, just like usual)
7) Sunday is Championship game day, best 2 out of 3
8) Championship series starts and 10a.m. with a 15 min break between games until winner is determined
Everybody gets at least 3 games (just like now), 8 teams get at least 4 games, 4 teams get at least 5 games and 2 teams get 7 or 8 games, plus everyone is home no later than 3 pm on Sunday. Depending on pitching rules everyone could pitch their best 3 in pool and still have a couple of them for the weekend with 2 or 3 days rest. Everyone would have a reason to go all out in pool play so competition would be top notch.
This could probably only work in the Summer with no school but if there were 6 of these tourney's over the 3 months of Summer you could do this format every other week and then play regular tourney's in the Fall, Feb-May and off-week ends.
What does everybody think?
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Edited by - 11UFAN on 10/29/2011 09:11:18 |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 08:56:06
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I'll let you use my hat to draw from...
quote:
Originally posted by Bullpen@
So gwinnett is up for blind seeding. Let's see how many other majors step up and agree to a even draw. Come on let the chips fall and everyone push for it at least one time. Maybe it will put this issue to bed. I would love to see how many teams entered and how it would play out. If nobody objects then speak up in favor.
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 10:35:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bullpen@
So gwinnett is up for blind seeding. Let's see how many other majors step up and agree to a even draw. Come on let the chips fall and everyone push for it at least one time. Maybe it will put this issue to bed. I would love to see how many teams entered and how it would play out. If nobody objects then speak up in favor.
bullpen, dont see the point in a blind draw but wouldnt object to it either. if you cant win your way to gold then you all need to zip it and find a lil mom and pop tourney in podunk, ga. is it better to make it gold and lose the 1st game or make it to silver and win a few? |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 11:46:10
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| I think all tournaments should be a blind draw and my the best team win. If you are scared go play rec-ball. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 14:55:26
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You're all missing one important element to having multiple pools and seeding in a way that the pools are mostly equitable.
Value.
I ran tournaments several years ago, long before the gold/silver/bronze brackets became popular. I would consistently get anywhere from 8 to 12 teams, mostly the same usual suspects from the major pool. This was in the day where every team played 3 pool games (4 teams per pool) and only the top two or three teams from each pool advanced to bracket.
Then one summer we decided to try and expand the tournament. We advertised the gold and silver bracket and ensured that everyone would be guaranteed a chance to play in bracket. We ended up with 28 teams and absolutely overwhelming positives from all the teams involved. The major teams welcomed getting to play different teams locally than they typically saw. They also used some of the mismatch games as an opportunity to pitch other players that might not normally get a start. The AA/AAA teams loved that they could size themselves up against the majors and still have a chance to play more ball than the guarantee minimum pool games.
The comments from these AA/AAA teams was that it was easy to spend money to enter a tournament with a real chance to play more than the minimum. At then end of the day, these teams would have normally loved to entered major tournaments, but didn't want to spend $500+ for 3 games. This changed the dynamic for them. In the end, both championship games were won by a single run, so it proved to be competitve baseball for all involved.
Now this concept has become the norm for Triple Crown. If they begin to shy away from the bracket split, fewer teams will enter. Consistently going to a blind draw might have that same effect. I think that one or two Triple Crown blind draw tourneys are a great idea, but if you end up with what might otherwise the the 4 seed winding up in the silver bracket on a consistent basis (because the draw puts 3 of the top 5 teams in the same pool), it will send alot of teams looking for other tournaments where they can be competitive.
I don't think anyone will shy away from playing the best out there as a means of getting better, but often, playing "like" competition is the best way to improve. 3 innings of play and not flipping your batting order in an 18-0 beatdown isn't making either team better.
Just a reminder to all of why the split brackets became popular.
quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
I think all tournaments should be a blind draw and my the best team win. If you are scared go play rec-ball.
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Edited by - in_the_know on 10/29/2011 09:12:16 |
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gtown71
86 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 16:54:41
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usssa has it set up for you. a/aa/aaa/major. this way any team can play with their skill level.quote:
Originally posted by Bullpen@
So gwinnett is up for blind seeding. Let's see how many other majors step up and agree to a even draw. Come on let the chips fall and everyone push for it at least one time. Maybe it will put this issue to bed. I would love to see how many teams entered and how it would play out. If nobody objects then speak up in favor.
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sportsman
37 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 17:27:28
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I recommend playing USSSA. They draw based on points so it's similar to a blind draw.
As for the tournament, I liked what I saw from the two Gwinnett teams, the Titans and Select. I think they will both win some big tournaments this year.
I also heard this weekend that the Braves lost their best player from last year to the GA Grays. |
Edited by - sportsman on 10/29/2011 09:12:56 |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 19:39:25
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Bullpen,
I am in for the blind draw with 3 pool play games, top 8 teams make it to bracket play as long as you have to play every team in your pool. Total teams would have to be in multiples of 4 to make it work. Everyone else goes home and enjoys the rest of their weekend.
I can guarantee you if a tourney was done this way (with no consolation bracket) the pool games would be much more competitive. I think making a team earn their way to bracket play is the way to go... |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 20:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
I think all tournaments should be a blind draw and my the best team win. If you are scared go play rec-ball.
This....If I'm not mistaken we played a major team or two during pool play for TC events last year....I remember watching a great game between the EC Braves and Shiloh last year as well...This is why I like USSSA to seed off of points, not who should beat who. |
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KMball
54 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 18:59:35
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Having just gone through the process of pool seeding, here's a great tool for doing a virtual blind draw:
http://www.random.org/lists/
It gives you a completely random draw on any provided list, and works great for a teams lists. I chose to load them alphabetically, hit randomize, and let the internet work it's magic. Surprisingly enough, the randomizer set some pretty good pools. |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 00:20:56
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I dont understand the complaints. This is travel (competitive baseball) baseball...who cares when you see the best. We played the #1 team in nation twice (pool & 2nd bracket) a couple seasons ago. No complaints...we enjoyed the challenge. We kept one game close (through 4 innings) (close is not getting run ruled). Our team enjoyed the challenge and we welcome it.
Tony does a great job! I coach14u and 16u. Tony, ill play the 1&2 best teams in pool so people will quit complaining. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 09:44:01
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In the know, excellent post in support of multiple brackets after pool play and not doing a blind draw. A few points I particularly agree with:
1) Value, a chance to play more games (and more competitve games) for the money.
2) It's better that mismatches occur in pool play to see where your team needs to improve or where they stack up.
3) Trying to ensure competitve bracket play.
Bullpen, from the tone of your posts sounds like you are with one of those teams that is competitive enough to win one of these big tournaments if some of the "Major" teams knocked each other out of the gold bracket in pool play. You would definitely have a chance of this happening with the luck of a blind draw.
Unfortunately, this would have the real potential to create blow outs in both brackets, making both brackets less competitive.
Besides, winning isn't everything right? If your team, as I suspect, is one that usually makes the gold bracket but can't make it to the finals I get the frustration but just remember there are a bunch of teams that would love to be in your position, its all on how you look at it. IMO, the best way for a team like this to go deeper in these big tourney's is the current format.
Keep playing the best/most competitive teams and your team will get better and you will go deeper in the next tourney. The TC set up creates this opportunity.
I am for maintaining the way TC does it now because it creats the best balance between facing the best, and maintaining competition and value. This makes all teams better...
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Edited by - 11UFAN on 10/29/2011 10:36:05 |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 10:52:25
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Thank you!!!
quote:
Originally posted by 11UFAN
In the know, excellent post in support of multiple brackets after pool play and not doing a blind draw. A few points I particularly agree with:
1) Value, a chance to play more games (and more competitve games) for the money.
2) It's better that mismatches occur in pool play to see where your team needs to improve or where they stack up.
3) Trying to ensure competitve bracket play.
Bullpen, from the tone of your posts sounds like you are with one of those teams that is competitive enough to win one of these big tournaments if some of the "Major" teams knocked each other out of the gold bracket in pool play. You would definitely have a chance of this happening with the luck of a blind draw.
Unfortunately, this would have the real potential to create blow outs in both brackets, making both brackets less competitive.
Besides, winning isn't everything right? If your team, as I suspect, is one that usually makes the gold bracket but can't make it to the finals I get the frustration but just remember there are a bunch of teams that would love to be in your position, its all on how you look at it. IMO, the best way for a team like this to go deeper in these big tourney's is the current format.
Keep playing the best/most competitive teams and your team will get better and you will go deeper in the next tourney. The TC set up creates this opportunity.
I am for maintaining the way TC does it now because it creats the best balance between facing the best, and maintaining competition and value. This makes all teams better...
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Bullpen@
21 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 23:09:20
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| 11U, Well written post. You sound like the voice of reason. Good luck this year |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2011 : 10:51:37
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Bullpen,
Good luck to you too. Sounds like your son is on a really good team. I hope whoever you guys are with make a bunch of noise in 2012. I wish all the GA "12's in 2012" the best, let's show everyone else in the country we can play some ball! |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2011 : 11:39:35
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11uFan, I agree that your post is level headed and a voice of reason for how TC runs their tournaments. TC does a great job with their tournaments, However, it is still rationalizing the controlling nature of why TC's pool seeding "maintains and ensures competitive brackets" and "maintains value and balance" but hurts the top AAA teams the most as they have to play through much more competitive pools forcing them to use more pitching while the protected Majors are able to develop their other pitchers who do not get to pitch on Sunday.
Most agree that strong pitching separates the best Majors from the rest. If this is true and TC is giving these teams the advantage in pool play protecting them with easier pool play games allowing the Majors to continue to save their pitching and are stronger by getting the byes and getting thru to the brackets with better seeding.
Winning isn't the most important thing, however, winning breeds confidence, and confidence breeds winning, so whether it is winning in pool play or the brackets, teams gain confidence and it does affect their play not only in the tournament but through out the season.
Hopefully there will be a tournament organization that will provide a true blind draw every once in while that gives all teams the same "chance" all the way from the draw, in pool play and thru the brackets.
Sward, this is a discussion group, just because people have a different point of view or disagree with your view does not make them complainers. Glad to see you are up for playing 1 & 2 in all of your tournaments. You the man!. However the boys are the ones playing and it would be highly unlikely in a TC tournament unless you are in a 4 team pool where 1 & 2 never would play one another. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2011 : 16:45:23
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kreskin,
My kid plays on a "Major" team and selfishly I would like to see a blind draw so his team could be in a pool with other top teams (Major or otherwise) because it only makes my sons team better to play the best competition out there. To me it is a consolation that we may be able to develop pitchers in pool play because of the way TC sets things up. I would say that the TC set-up benefits the "non-top teams" not the other way around. But I am basing that on the fact that I always want my son playing against the best GA has to offer and that my goal is not winning a tournament but him improving as a ball player and having baseball teach him all the life lessons that it can.
I believe we would benefit a helluva lot more if we faced top teams in pool play and for that matter, throughout the entire tournament. This is where USSSA differs from others. Unless it is an open tourney, you play more competitively throughout the tourney. On the other hand, this is why TC does the silver bracket. You get to the same place with the benefit of playing higher competition if you aren't a "top team". Basically, you get to test where your team stacks up and then can kick butt in silver if you don't make gold.
If on the other hand you care more about winning a tourney with alot of teams in it and the only way that can happen for your sons team is for some of the better competition to knock each other out of the top bracket to make it easier then I definitely agree with your point.
Based on the number of teams that sign up for TC (plus they are more expensive) vs USSSA I would say that the majority of the travel ball community in GA agrees with their format.
Given the passion for your arguments it sounds like you are on a very competitive team that is either consistently make gold but not able to advance very far or are on a top silver bracket team that wants to advance farther in the gold bracket. I just happen to think that a team in that situation will reach its goals by always playing the best teams out there.
Good luck in 2012. Just like I commented to bullpen, I sincerely hope you guys make some noise in 2012, it will make everyone that plays you better.
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