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T13
257 Posts |
 Posted - 06/29/2011 : 13:15:03
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| If during a 4 day event (global world series) a pitcher pitches 3 innings on thursday, 2 innings on friday, 0 innings on saturday...how many can he pitch on Sunday? |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 13:39:26
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If you pitch Joe 3 inn on Thursday and 2 inn on Friday and did not pitch him on Saturday, on Sunday he would have 6 inn left (8 innings max over 3 days), because Thursdays inning's would drop off.
Also remember, 3 days consecutive pitching, no matter how many innings, they have to rest a day. |
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ECBF
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 15:38:20
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If this pitcher has been pitching all year and has aspirations of pitching in high school or college he shouldn't have pitched at all after the 3 inning outing. Don't be fooled by tournament innings limits, they do nothing to protect an arm. It's all about pitch counts and rest.
A good link to learn what some of the best orthopedics in our country are studying: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm |
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ecbpappi
244 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 18:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ECBF
If this pitcher has been pitching all year and has aspirations of pitching in high school or college he shouldn't have pitched at all after the 3 inning outing. Don't be fooled by tournament innings limits, they do nothing to protect an arm. It's all about pitch counts and rest.
A good link to learn what some of the best orthopedics in our country are studying: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm
So, according to these guidelines then, one would need a team of 15 players to have enough innings to last a 6-7 game tournament. Seems like every travel team under 12 is doing it wrong.
7 games = roughly 35 innings.
12 pitchers = 36 innings if each kid is allowed to throw 3, 2 kids who only catch. Leaves one non-pitcher/sub. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 20:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ECBF
If this pitcher has been pitching all year and has aspirations of pitching in high school or college he shouldn't have pitched at all after the 3 inning outing. Don't be fooled by tournament innings limits, they do nothing to protect an arm. It's all about pitch counts and rest.
Innings are deceiving. Pitch count should be the determining factor. For example:
My son (10u) pitched game 3 of our Cooperstown run - 2 innings = 8 pitches. We had a game break, brought him back in to start the next game and he threw 5 innings = 52 pitches - so based on innings, we 'overthrew' him because he pitched 7 innings, yet he only threw 60 pitches. Each one of our players has a limit of 70 . We threw 10 pitchers in the 7 games, no one hit 70 pitches for the week. |
Edited by - ramman999 on 06/29/2011 20:30:00 |
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Steel-Will
278 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 21:10:09
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What do you use to keep track of all the pitches thrown by each pitcher? Something as simple as a spreadsheet?
Do you monitor and keep count of warmup pitches? What's a good amount of warmup pitches? |
Edited by - Steel-Will on 06/29/2011 22:41:20 |
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ECBF
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 21:47:44
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I would agree that most teams are doing it wrong. You're better off throwing him 4-5 and he's done for the tourney or 1-2 at a time. Then you're fine with 7-8 pitchers.
It's about pitches not innings. If you throw a kid 3 innings with anything over 30 pitches he should absolutely have the next day off. If he gets near the 40+ mark he needs 2 days off. Have you ever seen an MLB pitcher throw 3 innings in relief and pitch the next day? Never happens. But we'll let 10,11 and 12 year old boys do it every weekend, makes no sense.
You're left with 2 options. Follow a travel coach's pitching guidelines which in most cases have had little to no thought put into them beyond the tournament rules. Or follow the guidelines of our country's leading orthopedics and one of the most prominent doctors in MLB, (Dr. James Andrews) and the results of their recently completed 10 year study. I care enough about my players to make the obvious choice. If you put wins before a kid's potential future then absolutely ignore the experts and do it the way most people do. |
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ECBF
17 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2011 : 00:13:32
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I don't worry about the warm-up pitches as far as counting them. 10-15 at this age is plenty.
Pitch counter in your hand is the easiest way, we also keep a pitch chart during the season and input into a spreadsheet. If you have someone you can count on who will do Game Changer for you during the season that is really good too. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2011 : 08:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Steel-Will
What do you use to keep track of all the pitches thrown by each pitcher? Something as simple as a spreadsheet?
Do you monitor and keep count of warmup pitches? What's a good amount of warmup pitches?
Hand counter is the easiest way. Our scorekeeper keeps the pitching chart and pitch counts for both teams, but I like to also use my clicker to be sure. We feed all the info into a simple spreadsheet to sort and track during the season.
We try to limit warm up pitches to 6 per inning, but the kids do a very good job policing themselves. |
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11UFAN
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2011 : 23:02:08
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"It's about pitches not innings. If you throw a kid 3 innings with anything over 30 pitches he should absolutely have the next day off. If he gets near the 40+ mark he needs 2 days off. Have you ever seen an MLB pitcher throw 3 innings in relief and pitch the next day? Never happens. But we'll let 10,11 and 12 year old boys do it every weekend, makes no sense."
Really? 30 pitches, 40 pitches? In a tournament where your team plays 5 to 7 games their will be anywhere from 400 to as many as 600 pitches thrown. That would mean you would need 13 to 20 players all throwing 30 pitches to get through the tourney. Of course if you are on a 3 and out team you can get by with a 40 pitch limit per kid.
The guidelines Andrews put out is 60-70 pitches a weekend for the 11-12 year olds, he also says that one of the biggest reasons for preventing arm problems is teaching proper mechanics, this includes throwing a curve ball.
"The players Andrews operated on had two things in common: they pitched in pain, and their arms were fatigued."
He also said "a kid needs 3 months of little to no pitching a year so the arm can heal and rest"
It is up to the parents to monitor their kids and if there is any constant pain in the arm they should tell their coach no pitching for little Johnny this weekend. It's up to the coaches to teach proper mechanics, watch for the telltale signs of pain and fatigue and to keep pitch counts to a max of 70 at this age.
If you have a parent that lets their kid over pitch and a coach that either doesn't know what he's doing or doesn't care the kid is going to be at a much greater risk.
But, if you have an in tune parent and a really good coach then you have nothing to worry about.
IMO putting a 30-40 pitch count limit on a kid is a cop out and if the kid is throwing the ball wrong he will be at a much greater risk of an arm injury than a kid who throws 70 pitches correctly with the right parent/coach combination.
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ECBF
17 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2011 : 11:24:03
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Go back and read my earlier reply. You're better off going 1-2 inning stints or 4-5 than 3 and pitching again the next day. Then you don't need 13 pitchers. Grown men at the big league level have 1-2 days off after throwing 3 innings, but 11-12 year olds don't need it? Makes absolutely no sense.
If you wait until your pitcher has "constant pain" after pitching it's too late. Be a proactive parent. Better to educate yourself and know what he should be doing, can't count on a volunteer coach.
"It's up to the coaches to teach proper mechanics?" What makes them qualified? Go to a professional if your son is a pitcher who will throw a lot of innings.
Not sure where you read 30-40 pitch count limit. Never said that. Be thorough, understand the data and the rest time that is needed in between outings. You have to give the arm time to recover. You can absolutely throw 75-85 pitches over a weekend at 12, just has to be spread out properly.
If you do the research you'll read about the huge increases in arm surgeries in this age group that coincide with the expansion of travel ball. If you care about your kid you'll make the adjustment.
If the trophy is more important at 11 or 12 or if your kid has no aspirations to play in high school or college then like I said before, ignore the research and do it your way. |
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