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bturner
231 Posts |
 Posted - 05/04/2010 : 08:57:50
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There was a thread a while back by BMoser on this.I could"nt find it so here it goes again.
I read an article in the Sunday AJC about Jason Heyward. The braves scout (Clark) at the time said that he put Heyward on his radar at the ripe old age of 11. He said he saw him play at East Cobb and they started following him.
While I understand that he is only 1 kid and is the exception not the rule. It does matter the level they are playing now. Not that they are going to be Heyward or the next superstar, only that they are exposed to a higher level.
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kehndog
88 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 12:23:26
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| The original discussion thread on this topic is in the 15-18 General Discussion forum. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 13:20:01
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Too many things change from age 11 to when it really matters starting around 16 or 17 yrs old. Motor skills, physical changes / puberty, cognitive changes, coordination changes,hormonal changes, visual acuity changes and the list goes on and on. No matter how much any of us want to believe that our 11 yr olds have a shot to play at the next level its impossible to predict at these young ages because of those variables that will change from the time they are 11 till they are 16 or 17 yrs old.
I personally find it hard to believe that a scout saw any future predicability from an 11 yr old. Im more of the mind set to think that this scout made this comment to spice up the article and the hype of Heyward. If he was serious I think the organization he works for needs to take a look at his credibility as a MLB scout.
quote:
Originally posted by bturner
There was a thread a while back by BMoser on this.I could"nt find it so here it goes again.
I read an article in the Sunday AJC about Jason Heyward. The braves scout (Clark) at the time said that he put Heyward on his radar at the ripe old age of 11. He said he saw him play at East Cobb and they started following him.
While I understand that he is only 1 kid and is the exception not the rule. It does matter the level they are playing now. Not that they are going to be Heyward or the next superstar, only that they are exposed to a higher level.
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bturner
231 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 14:04:25
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G-Man
His name is Ed Clark and he is now the director of Scouting for the Nationals. He drafted McCann, Franquer,and now Heyward.O yea and that kid for the Nats last year Strasburg. I think his job is safe. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 14:12:16
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I said this in the other post and I'll say it again. 11u matters to my son who is 11. That's all that matters to me. I don't know if he will be playing next year and I don't have any delusions that he will be playing even high school ball.
You guys who keep saying that it only counts when you do it on the big field are coming from somewhere that I don't understand. My sons and my family are enjoying every minute their baseball experiences have to offer. We are supporting their desire to play as long as they want to play. I will continue to challenge them to be better and I will continue to find baseball teams that suit their individual skill sets and needs.
11u matters a lot ... and so does 9u and 10u and 12u ...
Now, if you think your son is going to be the next Jason Hayward because he can hit home runs off AA pitching in a season ... |
Edited by - TAZ980002 on 05/04/2010 14:13:51 |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 14:40:26
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| What if you asked this another way: Does it really matter what team an 11u plays on if he is having fun and improving his skills? If he truely is still a naturally talented player at 16 or 17, does that fact that he played on travel team made up of his school friends at 11 lessen his chances of playing in college or beyond? |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 14:44:28
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bturner: my point with that statement was any person who sees projectability at the age of 11 needs to have their head examined. Again I doubt this scout did and his statements about watching him since Heyward was 11 was nothing more than some hype to spice up the news article. I also believe Ed watched Heyward since he lives in that area and has been a fixture around ECB for a lot of years. But I am also positive he was watching Heyward as a fan of ECB baseball and not as a scout evaluating Heywards future projectability at the MLB level.
quote:
Originally posted by bturner
G-Man
His name is Ed Clark and he is now the director of Scouting for the Nationals. He drafted McCann, Franquer,and now Heyward.O yea and that kid for the Nats last year Strasburg. I think his job is safe.
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 15:42:42
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the original threads context:
I was asking 15-18 year old players Dads/Coaches to look at who made the High School team/s that they currently follow, or are involved with, then look back through time to when those young men were 11U.
What % were playing Major level vs. lower level travel ball? What % played travel ball vs. Rec? What % didn't play much baseball at all in 11U? How strong is the correlation between stud at 11, and stud in High School?
If they said most of the 11U studs are not on the H.S. team today, then what happened to them?
The reason I asked this was I often read about a new High School stud in the local paper, then go to USSSA to see his playing history. I'm expecting to see extensive travel ball playing history, but often found little or none!
Bandit_Hawk's take is from the view point of the 11U player and his family, and I totally agree with his opinions on that. I was looking for historical context from the H.S. players point of view looking back in time through their playing career.
I just wanted to clarify for all forum readers what I was trying to learn from the older boys/Dads/Coaches. I wasn't making any kind of statement, I was attempting to learn from folks that have been down this road before. You see, I have only 1 son, and thus only 1 chance to get it right.
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bturner
231 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 16:22:23
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Deecatur and Bandit
I agree with both of you.My biggiest point is this: about every other week I readon this board there isno way to tell who the studs are going to be. I dont agree with that. Those kids that are by far the best 10 and 11 (if they stay healthy and keep playing) are going to be studs at 16 & 17. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 16:49:48
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| I agree with you DecaturDad. And I like your way of looking at this Bandit. 11u matters to the players that are playing the game. Needs to be fun and instructional. Doesn't need to be high pressure, national level type stuff. Doesn't matter if you win tournaments, other than it is more fun if you win. What really matters is if your kid is having fun and becoming a better, more fundamentally sound ball player. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 22:11:17
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Moser,
I don't believe it's an apples to apples comparison. Travel ball has changed significantly in the past 5-7 years, which is when most of these high school players would have been 11. The landscape of travel ball has so many more teams with more competitive tournaments that I don't believe you can parallel what an 11u player is exposed to in today's environment vs. what an 11 year old had available to them 5-7 years ago.
quote:
The reason I asked this was I often read about a new High School stud in the local paper, then go to USSSA to see his playing history. I'm expecting to see extensive travel ball playing history, but often found little or none!
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 22:42:10
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bturner, not necessarily true. I have seen a TON of kids who were studs at 10, 11 even 12 who the game has passed by. Sure there are some studs still playing, but more of them are out, or not contributing than those who are still studs from then. Here's the thing. At the early ages, most of the studs are the early bloomers - the kids who grew earlier than the others. They were bigger, stronger and faster. Many of those kids stopped growing and everyone else caught up. I think you get my point.
We played at a tournament at Univ of South Carolina last summer. One of their coaches was talking to our coaches. He told them that he doesn't even look at 15 year old teams (that's what we were) because so much can change between 15 and 17 or 18. Big kids become average, smaller kids grow and there is no way to really tell. If a college coach/scout feels like he can't judge a 15 year old because of what may change in the next 2-3 years, how can you KNOW what an 11 year old will be like in 6-7 years? You really can't.
Just play the game, have fun, practice the fundamentals and hope your kid is good enough and still loves to play the game enough to play varsity ball one day. If he eventually dominates at the varsity level, you can start thinking about the next level. |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2010 : 23:41:33
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NO WAY any person can look at a 11 year old by and judge his future. In ANYTHING : sports academics , anything.
About the AJC article , if a scout is evaluating 11 year old boys he must have a lot of time on his hands.
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Baballman had it right ,calling the 10 to 12 year old boys "studs" , thats a laugher 50% of them wont play competitivly in 2 years when the filed is full sized.
Sorry dads thats the way it is but does not mean he shouldnt still play a recreation program for enjoyment: I know a handful of former 12 year old "studs" who now play rec ball and have happily accepted it..
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 03:39:18
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Here is my own personal experience. My older son who played for the Dodgers and Cardinals wasnt as good at 12 yrs old than my 11 yr old is presently. However A LOT changed from 12 to 17. The one trait I have seen of those who have made it to the next level other than physical tools is they all have a tremendous love for the game of baseball which forges that work ethic and heart need to play the game at higher levels.
I have to agree with you 1000%. However I am glad you posted this and I didnt have too LOL. As I also mentioned and bballman confirmed. Its impossible to predict an 11 yr olds future success playing baseball at the high school level and beyond no matter what their talent level is. As long as you are working on mechanics and creating a sound knowledge of the game nature will take its course.
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
bturner, not necessarily true. I have seen a TON of kids who were studs at 10, 11 even 12 who the game has passed by. Sure there are some studs still playing, but more of them are out, or not contributing than those who are still studs from then. Here's the thing. At the early ages, most of the studs are the early bloomers - the kids who grew earlier than the others. They were bigger, stronger and faster. Many of those kids stopped growing and everyone else caught up. I think you get my point.
We played at a tournament at Univ of South Carolina last summer. One of their coaches was talking to our coaches. He told them that he doesn't even look at 15 year old teams (that's what we were) because so much can change between 15 and 17 or 18. Big kids become average, smaller kids grow and there is no way to really tell. If a college coach/scout feels like he can't judge a 15 year old because of what may change in the next 2-3 years, how can you KNOW what an 11 year old will be like in 6-7 years? You really can't.
Just play the game, have fun, practice the fundamentals and hope your kid is good enough and still loves to play the game enough to play varsity ball one day. If he eventually dominates at the varsity level, you can start thinking about the next level.
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 08:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
the original threads context:
I was asking 15-18 year old players Dads/Coaches to look at who made the High School team/s that they currently follow, or are involved with, then look back through time to when those young men were 11U.
What % were playing Major level vs. lower level travel ball? What % played travel ball vs. Rec? What % didn't play much baseball at all in 11U? How strong is the correlation between stud at 11, and stud in High School?
If they said most of the 11U studs are not on the H.S. team today, then what happened to them?
The reason I asked this was I often read about a new High School stud in the local paper, then go to USSSA to see his playing history. I'm expecting to see extensive travel ball playing history, but often found little or none!
Bandit_Hawk's take is from the view point of the 11U player and his family, and I totally agree with his opinions on that. I was looking for historical context from the H.S. players point of view looking back in time through their playing career.
I just wanted to clarify for all forum readers what I was trying to learn from the older boys/Dads/Coaches. I wasn't making any kind of statement, I was attempting to learn from folks that have been down this road before. You see, I have only 1 son, and thus only 1 chance to get it right.
Bmoser, since my oldest is 11, I am not qualified to answer this topic as you originally posted it. Sorry if I have created any confusion. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 08:33:02
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| Papa thinks that you should play the game for the game itself. There does not have to be a pot of gold at the end of the baseball rainbow and that is why I love the game so. The game was invented to pass time in a way that would challenge the body and the mind not so that your child could sign a major league contract. The game was invented so the neighborhood boys could do something that they loved doing and have a ton of fun doing it. I don't know how a 11 year old looks at anything as they don't tend to say a lot but I do know that the time that I have spent with my boys in the yard and at the fields is time well spent and time that I wouldn't trade for that pot of gold. I could care less if they become a high school stud or professional ball player as I am proud of them the way they are and I will be proud of them for whatever they become. I can tell you that the time spent with them has been well worth the effort and I just hope that this time gives them the opportunity to advance if that is what they decide to do. I must just be a selfish old man because in my mind Papa gets a lot more out of this time spent with the boys than they do. Time has taken many things away from me but it will never be able to take the memories that I have made with my grandson's and all of their friends and this is reward enough so if my 11 and 13 year old don't become studs then Papa will just live with it. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:04:13
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papa, I don't think anyone is saying that just because you can't tell who will wind up being studs when they are 11 doesn't mean they should not play. That's why everyone is saying that the the most important thing is for the kids to have fun and learn the fundamentals of the game. The topic isn't "should kids play at 11 if they are not a stud". The basic topic is "can you tell if an 11 year old will be a stud when they get to HS". Baseball is a great game and I totally agree with your take on it. I really just think kids need to be having fun at 11 years old.
My son was still playing rec ball at 11. He was good, but small. He is still pretty small (5'9", 175 lbs.). He is a sophomore in HS this year. He has been a starting varsity pitcher for 2 years and made 2nd team all region the last two years. And this is in region 6 AAAAA. He didn't play travel till he was 12, so I can honestly say it didn't matter what he did when he was 11. He was playing rec ball, having fun, playing with his friends, playing catch and hitting with his dad and loving baseball. Did we work on his game? Yep. Did he learn the fundamentals? Yep. Was he playing 70-80 games a year against the best competition in the state or region or country at 11? No. And he still turned out pretty good. I can probably name you 25 kids who were playing travel ball at an earlier age than him, just in the Roswell area, who are no longer playing baseball at all. Didn't seem to help them, although I'm sure they enjoyed the heck out of their experience and their dads can look back and say it was probably the best times of their sons growing up. Enjoy the time with your son's/grandson's. That's what it's all about. Not piling up trophy's - no one will care in the long run. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:06:22
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| Why rehash this again?? Someone has already pointed out where another (4 page) thread exists on this same topic. Of course 11u matters to many for various reasons. |
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ronicard
117 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
bturner: my point with that statement was any person who sees projectability at the age of 11 needs to have their head examined. Again I doubt this scout did and his statements about watching him since Heyward was 11 was nothing more than some hype to spice up the news article. I also believe Ed watched Heyward since he lives in that area and has been a fixture around ECB for a lot of years. But I am also positive he was watching Heyward as a fan of ECB baseball and not as a scout evaluating Heywards future projectability at the MLB level.
I'm not so sure. In the book "Scouts Honor: The Braves Way of Building An Organization", they reference the fact that a scout first saw Kyle Davies throw a no-hitter at age 12 at East Cobb and called Paul Snyder to tell him that he was looking at a player they were going to draft in 6 years. And they mention that they continued to watch and monitor Davies pitch over the next 6 years.
While I will agree with you that a lot can change, kids are hitting puberty earlier and earlier now. And they are physically maturing at a much more rapid pace. We lamented several times this past weekend that 12 year olds today are much bigger than they were when I came along (back when dinosaurs roamed the earth). It's not surprising at all to me that a scout and/or college coach is looking at a physically dominant player at age 11 or 12 and putting him on a "watch list" for someone who has the potential to be a player for him 5 or 6 years down the road.
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Rocky
290 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:00:46
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I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
I wondered about this too. I met Jeff Francoeur one day last year and asked him about his experience at East Cobb and he told me he had little or no playing experience at East Cobb. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 10:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocky
I would like to know how much Jason Heyward really played at East Cobb. I can't even find him on USSSA website. I found a ton of teams for Bryce Harper. Can anyone confirm any East Cobb teams he played on and at what age? I also believe a scout probably saw him hit one time or a ball came over to another field he might have been standing at and therefore said he remembered seeing him play as an 11 year old. I don't know if being a stud young means anything or not I am sure it goes both ways but Bryce Harper was a stud at 12 and he is a pretty good now.
Taken from the Perfect Game website data:
Jason Heyward 2007
OF 1B L/L 6-4 220
HS: Henry County
Hometown: McDonough, GA
Summer Team: East Cobb Astros
Fall Team: East Cobb Astros
College Commitment: UCLA |
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putmeincoachgeorge
9 Posts |
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Rocky
290 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 14:17:12
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| What I am saying is just because ECB picks you up for a team at 17 or 18 doesnt mean his dad was driving him to ECB at since he was 10 years old and that is what made him a great player. If he had been playing a lot of travel baseball I think we would see his name on USSSA website similar to Bryce Harper. |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 14:54:07
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Stop using the USSSA site as a basis for the early 2000's. Entering data was not required for the years Heyward was in his early teens. My 13U team is in for 2002 (also Jason's 13U year), and of those players, including Michael Palazzone, now at UGA, only one is listed on another USSSA team in the future.
The first time he shows up in PerfectGame is as a 14U for the 2004 Underclass National Showcase. The summer of 2004 he played as a 15U for the East Cobb Aztecs, and that roster is not in the USSSA system because we played 1 tournament and I didn't put it in the system. The roster is in the WWBA DB for 2004 tournaments as the East Cobb Aztecs, and Jason is on that roster.
Hope this helps on him, and will put to rest the roster lookups some of you are doing on players who were teenagers in the early 2000's. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 17:10:15
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12ucoach:
I was using the usssa roster history to look up high school juniors and seniors, not MLB players. I figured if a star high school player is now 16 or 17, he'd likely show up in 12u,13u,14u. I know my sons history goes back 4 years to when he was 7 and began in travel ball. I didnt see it as that much of a leap to think I'd find High School players' history's too. |
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Does11 u matter?
