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oldschooldad
203 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:00:35
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I am curious if teams are having any arm trouble with their pitchers. I've seen quite a few games where teams are having one guy pitch into the 4th and some times 5th inning. I am not keeping pitch counts but the teams were not setting the batters down 1-2-3 so it seems like the pitch count would be high. If you figure 15-20 per inning, then it looks like some guys are throwing 80+ in one game! Way too many pitches for young arms.
Any thoughts?
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:28:09
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Parents must protect their childs arms by making it very clear to coaches as to the limit you will allow your son to be pitch. The rules for travel ball..in most cases..do not protect these young arms. I suggest no more than 6 innings in a week/weekend for 9-12u. It is much more important to over protect their arms than it is to win ball games. Coaches can loose sight of this in the heat of the battle.
To me this is the single most important thing you can do for a young pitcher...limit his innings/pitches...also pay close attention to how much he is throwing during warm ups and in between games...in general most kids throw way to much on a given weekend...they warm up each game 10+ minutes...then if they are pitching they will sometimes do both warm up throwing and pitching. Then they pitch 6 innings...then they will go back 2 hours later and start throwing for warming up for another game..then play ss for that game...NOBODY'S arm was made for all of that...even adults.
DO NOT RELY ON COACHES TO PROTECT YOUR SONS ARM...AND DON'T wait until his arm starts hurting b4 making this clear with your sons coach. Don't be an ass about it but at the same time don't be affraid to be an ass if thats what it takes. |
Edited by - mrbama31 on 03/26/2010 11:44:19 |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 12:09:44
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| Does it matter what your child's build is? If he's a smaller kid do you have lower limit? If he's big, do you make his higher? What I'm asking is do we treat all kids the same or limit it accordingly? |
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 12:31:42
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| BIG kids arms gets hurt just like small kids...the size of the kid makes very little difference. |
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WestCoastGuru
148 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 12:36:02
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| Regardless of the frame of your child, tendons and ligaments are still succeptable to being damaged due to abuse....I agree wholeheartedly with mrbama31, the ultimate target for your child playing travel ball is to have them ready to play high school baseball, your son can't earn a scholarship for college at 12 years old....or 17 with a blown out shoulder!!! |
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bturner
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 13:02:52
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Great Topic if we can keep it away from curve ball talk.
I think that overuse is the key trouble with young arms. But I also think that every kid is different. A pitch count is great but each kid has a different one. I think the parents and coaches have to discuss this weekly. For my son (10) I will not let him throw over 65 on any day or 85 on a weekend. There are other pitchers on my team that does 45 and 65. As the year increases we will re-evaluate each one.
So if you are at the field and you see that 11 u player throw 77 pitches in 4 innings, hold your tounge. You dont know if that is to much for him. Let his parents and coaches make those decisions.
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 13:15:05
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mazzoni rule
6 times age
10 equals 60
11 equals 66
12 equals 72
until about age 18
not one person even mentioned mechanics yet, also the growth plate years age 13-14 you can throw 1 pitch and get hurt as those are the 2 years when growth plates and pitching really have trouble |
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 13:23:11
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Coaches/Parents will argue he can throw 2-3 on Friday and come back Sunday for 5-6..he will be fine...If your child does this especially on a regular basis...STOP the craziness..There is only one reason to do this and that is to win ball games...period..no other reason justifies this type of abuse. Remember why your family got involved in travel ball...and that was to develope your sons skills to their full potential...he does not NEED to pitch 8-9 innings and throw 100-150 pitches a week to develope as a pitcher...2-6 innings a week/ weekend will get the job done.
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 14:12:28
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Pitch counts depend on age and gradate higher as the kids age. Another influencer is the amount of "off-speed" pitches he's asked to throw ( dependent upon age of course ). Don't forget to add in warm up pitches to your pitch count as well.
Best thing is to utilize the J-Bands throughout the year....even in the offseason. Be proactive with arm maintenance...ice after throwing...even if it doesn't hurt. Stretch before games or practice ALWAYS. 15- 20 minutes of stretching can save you lots of money at the doctors office ! Talk to Coach before hand and make sure you, he and Johhnny are all on the same page regarding maximum pict counts, arm soreness etc. Also if he's an early teen, you'll need to potentially coordinate his School ball club and his TRavel ball club and pitches / innings, days rest etc.
Lots of variables when proactively managing your kids health and well being ! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 15:32:17
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Yep, big or small, it doesn't matter. Throw 'em too much and they run the risk of getting hurt. Pitch counts for different pitchers will be different. There is no one size fits all. The biggest things to look for are signs of fatigue and making sure they get plenty of rest between starts. Earlier in the season, kids should be building up to higher pitch counts. Especially now, with all the weather, kids arms are probably not in top shape. Pitch counts should be lower, building to mid-end of season shape.
Even at the HS level, most coaches are aware of this and will work their kids into shape. My son has not pitched a whole lot yet this year. 12 1/3 innings for his varsity team. Last Friday, he went 4 1/3, 55 pitches and was a little sore from it. He was going to start Wednesday, but still had a little muscle soreness in his forearm, so they put him off until tonight. A full week's rest - and that is for a HS pitcher.
Please, every one of you parents, don't let your kid pitch too many innings and make SURE they get their rest between outings. His arm health is more important than winning a 12 or 13 or 14 year old tournament. If he is good enough, he will get his chances to be seen and make an impact in high school. As much as you want to think it, your kid is not superman. As much as your kid wants to think it, they are not superman. It will catch up.
The problem now a days is that there is so much travel ball starting from such a young age. All that pitching wears on an arm and you can't even see it. You will never know until one day your son's arm is shot. At that point, it is too late to wish you hadn't let them pitch that much when they were younger.
My point is not to say don't let your kid pitch. My point is do not let coaches abuse your kids just to win some pre-adolescent tournament. I can't tell you how many games we lost because my son had reached his limit and we took him out with a lead only to have the other team come back and beat us. Or how many times we said my son could beat this team, but we just used him yesterday, we're not going to do that to him. It's not always easy, but it is the right thing to do. |
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kehndog
88 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 09:14:09
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Here is some insight borrowed from another NWBA discussion thread. A good pitching program includes:
- Long toss for strength
- Routine bullpen sessions scheduled around starts and relief innings for stamina
- Distance running for post-pitching recovery and conditioning (burns off excess lactic acid built up while pitching)
Also, a decent write-up on this topic by a well-respected pitching coach in the area can be found at ...
http://www.eastcobbbaseball.com/articles/AvoidingArmInjury.pdf
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 11:21:54
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| always nice to have parents tell parents how to raise their kids. keep the advice coming |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 17:31:45
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Jaguar, more like parents with experience passing along advice to parents with less experience. Maybe you are one of those coaches or parents who want to win at all costs at any level? I don't know, your comment just seems very caustic.
I have done a lot of reading and research on youth arm care. My comments and I'm sure the other's comments are meant to educate so parents of younger kids won't make the same mistakes we have made. Take or leave it. Can't say you weren't given the information. |
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ec1
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 22:27:15
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bballlman has good experience here. I am more concerned with the pitcher that goes 4-5 innings and then he is at 3rd/ss/of the next inning or game. You pitch and are a postion player you should be in the DH role. Tough pill to swallow but pitch your tourney innings and be done. quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Jaguar, more like parents with experience passing along advice to parents with less experience. Maybe you are one of those coaches or parents who want to win at all costs at any level? I don't know, your comment just seems very caustic.
I have done a lot of reading and research on youth arm care. My comments and I'm sure the other's comments are meant to educate so parents of younger kids won't make the same mistakes we have made. Take or leave it. Can't say you weren't given the information.
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 08:19:21
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| it is just that when you use words like MUST and DONT you seem to be cictating what parents should and should not do. I let my coach handle my kid and he does not pitch much as it is. Most people who complain about pitchers pitching too much are teams who just got beat by a good pitcher |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 08:58:42
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| jaguars: I tend to disagree with your statement that most of the people that are complaining have just gotten beat by a good pitcher. I would bet that most that are complaining are the ones that have a child that has been through an arm injury. I went through with it the Chainsaw and it is not a very fun trip and if something could be done to minimize the risk of them getting hurt then we all should encourage that effort. I also hear what you are saying that we might be getting overprotective (if that is possible) but there is such a fine line here as to how much is enough and there are so many theories out there concerning pitching that contradict each other and this only makes a hard decision even harder. We must all keep as educated as we can and make the best decisions based on the child's safety. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 10:13:54
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A couple of things jaguar. 1st of all, you can't always just leave it to the coaches. Maybe you can, because your kid is not pitching much, but as parents, we need to look out for our kids best interest. The coach doesn't always know, or he gets caught up in the game and is only thinking about strategy and forgets about the pitcher.
To be honest, it is the parent of the good pitcher that rely needs to worry about this. I have complained about this just watching other teams or hearing about it happen. Not just because we got beat. Couple of points on that. If the kid is good, you want him to last a long time in terms of playing into HS and possibly beyond. Keep letting him over pitch, that becomes more and more unlikely. Another point is those kids that are good are the ones that a coach will tend to rely on and overuse. Parents should be on top of this. It is YOUR son, not the coaches. Sure the coach cares, but not as much as you. It is the parents responsibility to be educated and take care of the health of their kid. Since my son was playing rec ball at 9, when my son was tired and had pitched enough, I was at the dugout telling the coach he was done.
He is in HS now. I have not had to do that. I have talked to the coaches and I know that they have a plan and keep a pitch count and wiill take him out when he reaches that point. Friday night, he went 6 innings, gave up 3 singles and no runs in his varsity game. After 6 innings, he was at 85 pitches with a 2-0 lead. Coaches took him out and let someone else close the game. Would it have been nice to see him get a complete game? Yep. Would it have ben easy to leave him in because he had the other teams number? Yes. I am still glad they took him out.
I'm not telling you to do anything more specific than be educated and keep an eye out for the best interest of your son. Don't leave it up to others - they do not have as much of an interest in your child as you do. |
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 21:55:33
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bballman,
I couldn't agree with you more...You are right on with your thoughts..I pitched at both the college level and the minor league level. I have also coached travel ball at the highest level for the last 6 years with 2 sons involved. I speak from lots of exprience and I am very passionate about this issue of over use with our young VERY TALENTED players. In general most of the top pitchers are being over used when you consider how much they play in the field/position play on top of pitching 6+ innings in a weekend.
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
My point is we want to play ALOT of baseball because IT DOES MAKE them better players...this is true...but we MUST BE CAREFUL with these childrens arms...without a good arm they are not very valuable at the next level whether they are a pitcher and or position player.
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BBmaniac
24 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 22:50:26
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| My only comment here is to the staement about getting our kids to high school. My experience is that the coaching is better at the "serious" travel level than at most high schools. There are exception but less than you might think. We had a HS coach throw a kid the other night 139 pitches.....unbelievable! Things are changing...for most kids, the best exposure they are going to get will be playing in elite travel ball tourneys....That said, I also agree that it is of much greater importance to a parent to protect their player from over use. Keep in mind that very few players will admit to their coach that their arm is sore or hurting. They are afraid of getting "that look" if they say they can not go. I have always made a point to ask my own kid how his arm feels and then mention to a coach before a game if there is a concern.....There are coaches at every level that are far too focused on winning regardless of the consequences.....Not all but more than there should be. |
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mom4baseball
38 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 23:52:28
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Just heard of an 11u major pitcher who played down in 11u AA today throwing over 105 in one game who also pitched some innings yesterday!!
Isn't that a little much???????? |
Edited by - mom4baseball on 03/29/2010 09:28:59 |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
bballman,
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
I am going through this right now. My son (10U) loves to catch. If he had his way, he would catch for an entire weekend. He has the stamina and leg stenghth to do it. He also pitches as needed. A few weeks ago, he started complaining about his elbow. We have had him seen by a specialist and even had his arm x-rayed. No real damage, but there seems to be a little tendonitis. No catching or pitching for him for the next few weeks. His coaches are very good at limiting usage, but he still managed to "over use" it between games, practices and just messing around. It killed me this weekend, not to be able to have him on the mound or behind the plate. He was even offering to the caoch that he was feeling fine, and to put him in. But all of us agreed that the best thing for him, long term, was no pitching or catching until after spring break. (He did play other positions, so he was happy, and could still help out his team.)
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:55:00
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Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
bballman,
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
I am going through this right now. My son (10U) loves to catch. If he had his way, he would catch for an entire weekend. He has the stamina and leg stenghth to do it. He also pitches as needed. A few weeks ago, he started complaining about his elbow. We have had him seen by a specialist and even had his arm x-rayed. No real damage, but there seems to be a little tendonitis. No catching or pitching for him for the next few weeks. His coaches are very good at limiting usage, but he still managed to "over use" it between games, practices and just messing around. It killed me this weekend, not to be able to have him on the mound or behind the plate. He was even offering to the caoch that he was feeling fine, and to put him in. But all of us agreed that the best thing for him, long term, was no pitching or catching until after spring break. (He did play other positions, so he was happy, and could still help out his team.)
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Edited by - mrbama31 on 03/29/2010 11:35:11 |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:35:37
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I have stepped back from coaching and I'm now just a parent who keeps the book for our team. While keeping up with our pitch count I also keep up with the opposing pitchers. From my experience most pitchers at 13 are not as sharp once the get around the 50 pitch mark. I generally let our coaches know when they are hitting this point because we can start to be a little more patient and expect to see more balls thrown. While playing a game this weekend I was totally shocked inning after inning to see the other pitchers pitch count grow to a complete game 109. This is not including warm-ups and pick-off attempts. We were in disbelief to see him continue to take the mound inning after inning with the ability to lift his arm.
I think the common theme here is lets take a common sense approach to this as parents. If your son is on the mound you can also keep track of their pitch count. You don't have to leave it up to the coach. If the coach is not on the same page with what you feel is an acceptable pitch count or the team pitching depth causes your son to pitch a lot, YOU as a parent can make a decision to do whatever you feel at that point. It's your son not the coach's. If your child loves to play baseball give him the chance to play past 13/14. Who is going to remember a great YOUTH pitcher that never pitched past 13/14? |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
mrbama,
His mom is a pediatrician, so she is VERY protective. That is also one reason we like the team we are on. We may loss a few games, but the coaches truely do have all the kid's best interests in mind.
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ecbstix
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:07:18
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| Decatur Dad, my son is a catcher also. The last 2 years he has had the same problem. We solved it at the Chiropractor! This year he had to came out of a game in Fla, that week we went to the Chiro, she checked his shoulder strength and found the trouble was in his shoulder. His Humorous bone was out of alignment at the shoulder. She adjusted this and he has been pain free for 2 tourneys including catching 6 games in the SNIT! Now I don't believe everything they say they can do, but who knows it may save arm troubles later! |
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
mrbama,
His mom is a pediatrician, so she is VERY protective. That is also one reason we like the team we are on. We may loss a few games, but the coaches truely do have all the kid's best interests in mind.
Thats interesting...what is her take on "travel ball" and all the required throwing that is required from these young men in such a short period of time (fri,sat,sun)..I would be very interested in her
opinion vs the opionion of coaches and even vs a sports MD. |
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Topic |
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Arm troubles?
