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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
 Posted - 03/07/2010 : 22:54:01
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Papa and the Bandits have traveled extensively in the SouthEast and many places all across the nation and have never had too much to complain about when it comes to umpires but this weekend umpiring should and needs to be addressed.
Papa does not quite understand how things work with a USSSA sanctioned event such as this one and I am asking for someone to help me understand how a tournament likes this works. Who hires the umpires. Is it Bubba and USSSA or the directors of the event. And if it is the directors of the event and by the way no one at Central Park qualifies to be called director of anything. No person can serve two masters so I ask for someone to help me understand how one can be the tournament director and Coach a team in the tournament.
I can promise you that the Bandits have always loved this tournament and are so glad to be a part of the fundraising for the charity. But we did not come just for the charity and I don't think any of the other elite teams did either. I do think that all of the teams and coaches are glad that the Children's hospital and Miracle Field benefit from the proceeds of the tournament but The main reason that the Bandits and most of the major elite baseball teams come is to play in a quality, well run tournament and the one at Central Park does not qualify for this description.
I am not going to say too much in this regard but I am going to ask if others experienced umpire issues and if you had the same luck we did trying to get the tournament director to quit playing his game to come address issues on the other fields. Papa specifically asked the TD at Central Park to come to our field and evaluate the umpires performance and was called a name related to the donkey family. He was most likely right on the donkey family thing but that did little in the way of addressing a problem that teams were having with the umpiring. And if the TD only knew that Papa has been called much worse than the donkey thing and that I appreciate him taking it easy on me.
I heard at least the majority of the 12U major teams say that they would most likely not come back next year to the Slugfest due largely to the umpiring.
I only saw this issue with Central Park and 12U major division and did watch some other fields that the umpiring appeared to be going well so I am asking for feedback from everyone on all fields so that we might determine if this was an isolated incident or tournament wide.
I do want to clarify so that no one will think that I am whining that my Bandits could not have played any better than they did and that we could not be more proud of what they accomplished this weekend going 4-1 in a major 12U tournament filled with some of the best teams in Georgia and that the umpiring had no effect on the outcome of our game as we were pitching a postion player that has pitched very little at the end and were just proud that we made it as far as we did.
In my opinion and if you post and tell me that I am wrong then I will retract my statements and eat my hat at the very next tournament if you furnish the salt and give my fellow posters 30 minutes to draw a crowd before I eat my hat that this is what I saw.
1. I saw an entire group of umpires that had no clue where or what a strike zone was.
2. I saw 3 different incidents where the umpires did not know the count with a runner on 3rd base calling ball 4 when there was only 3 balls and as the runner was taking his base, the runner on 3rd took advantage and scored without a throw to home. The most primitive job of an umpire is to know the count at all times.
3. I don't know if I can describe this right or not but I watching the EC Colt 45's playing the Ga. RoadRunners with the RoadRunners having a runner on third. The umpire called strike 3 and the batter started walking to the dugout when in reality it was only strike 2. As the Coaches from the Roadrunners were yelling that it was only strike 2 the Roadrunner that was on third base tried to come home and the ball was thrown to the catcher and the runner was tagged out at home. After this it was just bedlam and the game got out of control and again due to the simple fact that the umpire lost count of the count. I am not sure if I described this correctly but I know many of you were standing there and might add to this story.
4. The most disturbing issue was in the quarterfinals when the umpire for the Bandits and EC Whitesox game decided that the coaches should be in the dugout. They had been outside the dugout for the entire tournament but all of a sudden the rules changed and the coaches were told that they could not coach outside the dugout. Same scenario on the field with the Jaquars and the Tournament Directors team. Jaquars coach protested and saying that he had the right to coach his kids and the Tournament Director that coached his opponent had him tossed.
Next game the Tournament Director's team played the Bandits and the Bandits Coaches were told that they coach outside the dugout again per instructions from the Director. No Director has this kind of power to decide a different set of rules for each different game. So here's the deal, Coaches outside the dugout to the quarterfinals, then inside the dugout for the quarterfinals and then back outside for the semifinals and then who the heck knows.
5. The umpires appear to know less about what a balk was than Papa does about tuning a jet airplane engine.
I don't want this to be controversial but one of the purposes of this forum is to address issues such as this. I saw some great baseball teams this weekend and I saw some problems that needs to be addressed. I do not think that Tournament Director should Coach a team or align the pools to better position his team and even if he didn't it still gives an appearance that he did.
I also would like to say that the East Cobb Colt 45's looked really good. Southern Jaquars looked really good and that I can promise that you have not heard the last of the Roadrunners as they also flashed signs of greatness. Its still real early and much noise will be made by these teams.
And last but not least congratulations to the East Cobb Astros for another great championship run. Papa has really got to know these kids and want them to know that I think that they are some of the best baseball players on the planet and that I appreciate them granting Papa his wish.
In my time I have watched one of the greatest tournaments in the Southeast wither and almost die due to issues very similiar to the ones described above. For the sake of Miracle Field and the Childrens Hospital I hope that the directors of this tournament open their eyes and make sure that the same thing that happened to the Border Wars does not happen to the Slugfest. Teams will not continue to play if we do not think we are getting fair and level play.
If I am wrong please let me know and I will gladly retract but if I am right let the directors know so that they can fix the problems and make this an even greater tournament. |
Edited by - baseballpapa on 03/07/2010 22:59:04 |
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lottapop
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:03:47
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| I agree, the umps were horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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cam1
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:19:21
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| Pappa I coach a 14u team and we in part didn't play in this tournament because of these type issues. The umpires they used we are very familiar with and the changing of coach allowed on the feild or off always varies from game to game with this group. The strikezone thing is very very bad with this group. I know for a fact that the TD for the 14's had his team in the tournament aswell and while I have much respect for him I think that this shouldn't be allowed by the sanctioning body( USSSA). A TD has to be able to govern the tournament and they can't do that effectively while coaching on the feild. |
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op-o
41 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:20:50
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We had a similar experience on Friday night @ Sharon Springs 13U AAA division. First the home plate umpire shows up 20 minutes late without his gear. Goes back out to the car and 15 minutes later starts the game. The game was essentially decided by the home plate umpire. His strike zone was non-existant. We managed to get three innings within the time limit. There were 17 BB issues in the game, most in the 3rd inning where the visiting team scored 11 runs and the home team scored 10. The inning took 1 hour 20 minutes. Three pitching changes for each team in the inning and over 100 pitches thrown among the 6 pitchers. At the end with the tying run on 3rd, winning run on 2nd the strike zone grew about 2 ft. Game over.
These are not bad teams -- both were eliminated in the semi-finals on Sunday so it wasn't the pitching it was the umpire. He basically reduced this to a 9U rec league game.
I found the site director & told him about situation but he was more interested in watching the 13U ECB Thunder vs Willis Park Warriors Major game. He could care less about some parent complaining about umpires. The rest of the weekend was uneventful but we burned so much pitchnig Friday it had an impact on the rest of the event for us.
Very disapointing. |
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Titan1
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:29:05
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| We are from MAcon and everytime we come to North Atlanta for a tournament the umpires treat us differently than they treat the other team and coaches. Doesn't matter what organization we play from Triple Crown, USTBA, or USSSA, it is always the same thing. |
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BravesFan
533 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Titan1
We are from MAcon and everytime we come to North Atlanta for a tournament the umpires treat us differently than they treat the other team and coaches. Doesn't matter what organization we play from Triple Crown, USTBA, or USSSA, it is always the same thing.
Funny thing, the teams up north feel the same way about going south! lol |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:56:48
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I watched the Bandits/White Sox game on Sunday, and to be honest I didn't think the strike zone calls were bad, though I'll grant that the umpires we see down here (been playing at Central and Sharon for several years) do seem to be rather liberal on the strike zones for smaller kids which did work against the Bandits a couple of times.
That said they made (or almost made) several other really questionable calls in the game, including moving the defensive coach off the field. I think part of the problem is that there are multiple umpiring associations these guys are coming from, and there are multiple different sets of base rules they have to deal with (USSSA/Babe Ruth, LL, probably more) for the games they umpire, plus any tournament specific rules. Not really an excuse for the guys that don't appear to be giving any effort, but it's also not always as easy as it looks.
I would also say that at the 12u Majors games we watched, the umps took a lot more abuse from the fans (and some coaches) than at the AA/AAA games I watched, and to the umps credit, I didn't see one of them react to it or appear to change the way they called the games (we did only see a couple of the Majors games, though). |
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BaseballMomof2
57 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 09:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Titan1
We are from MAcon and everytime we come to North Atlanta for a tournament the umpires treat us differently than they treat the other team and coaches. Doesn't matter what organization we play from Triple Crown, USTBA, or USSSA, it is always the same thing.
Tital1 - thank you for your comment on this thread. I wonder if you would elaborate on your statement please. In what way(s) were you and your team treated differently? |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 10:07:16
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I sent emails out to Matt Trebuchan, Bubba Smith, Bill Moats (Tounament Director), and Chris Moon on Saturday morning about this. It was a particular set of umipires I was complaining about. Then after Sunday it is obvious that a majority of that group has no clue and or training for this type of event! Our umpire lost track of the pitch count AT LEAST 6 times throughout the course of our game with the 45's. The outcome of the game was not decided by how bad they were. The 45's took care of that with their bats.
The guys running this event had most of the top teams in the state in the 12u/11u division present this weekend. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to make this a staple of these teams for the next couple of years with this showing.
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Lefty8
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 10:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Corbin
I sent emails out to Matt Trebuchan, Bubba Smith, Bill Moats (Tounament Director), and Chris Moon on Saturday morning about this. It was a particular set of umipires I was complaining about. Then after Sunday it is obvious that a majority of that group has no clue and or training for this type of event! Our umpire lost track of the pitch count AT LEAST 6 times throughout the course of our game with the 45's. The outcome of the game was not decided by how bad they were. The 45's took care of that with their bats.
The guys running this event had most of the top teams in the state in the 12u/11u division present this weekend. They missed a GOLDEN opportunity to make this a staple of these teams for the next couple of years with this showing.
I agree with all of the above quotes! My son played in the 13 major tournament and the balls and strikes and outs at bases when trying to steal were pathetic. Our first umpire could not even speak english, so how in the world can he call balls and strikes. Our coach asked the one umpire just to see how thie other kid on the opposite team fell to make sure we where not at fault in tripping the kid in anyway and the umpire got ticked and basically told our coach to zip it for just trying to check on the kid that fell. we pay alot of money to e entered into this tournament and expect all teams to be treated equally. I also dont agree with the opposing coaches being able to kiss up or talk to the umpires during a game or while the game is on hold for any reason. Only conversation that should occur is during the middle of the game and if the coach has reason to ask about a call. |
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baseballnutz
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 10:58:06
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| 9U umpires where horrible - in on game I saw 4 called strikes on balls in the dirt and two with ball at the neck. No clue of what a balk is and they lost track of the count more times then I can remember. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 12:15:36
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He could care less about some parent complaining about umpires.
yea no kidding why would anyone want to hear a parent complain about anything? let the coach or manager do it if you have an issue. not saying your night right but its not your job.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 12:16:06
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I was hoping that Mike Corbin could let us all know who responded to his emails and if they are planning on addressing these issues. Especially the one where the tournament director is coaching his team and directing the umpires on what to do and who to toss. Might be an advantage for the home team in this scenario. Its a shame that the kids from this team that are first class and great players have a cloud over their performance due to the adults running the tournament.
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stanlewis
545 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 12:17:24
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I knew this would be a volatile subject, but I heard enough complaints to know that you would want to vent. If you have an unmoderated post, edit it and make it a little more generic especially if you are identifying people in a specific situation.
All umpires make mistakes and are capable of handling games at different competitive levels, what you are discussing here is the general caliber of officiating and how they ran the games. Not a specific ball or strike or call. I have ran enough tournaments to know that sometimes you can get a little calloused handling complaints about umpires because there is a small minority of people at every game that make unfounded statements and misinterpret the rules. If there was this level of problems, hopefully the information you provide here can help them make corrections for the future. |
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op-o
41 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 12:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by whits23
He could care less about some parent complaining about umpires.
yea no kidding why would anyone want to hear a parent complain about anything? let the coach or manager do it if you have an issue. not saying your night right but its not your job.
When we're all participating in an activity that's for the benefit of the kids -- and I hope that why we're all in the youth baseball thing -- for our kids. I should be everyones responsibility to make it right. I could care less about the wins and losses but the players on both teams did not get anything out of that game on Friday. The umpiring wasn't bias to one team or the other it was just bad. If the director and any interest in making this event better he should have taken some interest no matter who brought this to his attention. |
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michaelp
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 13:57:03
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| First off I work for Jim Stros with National Umpire Association. It is very competitive to be the booking agent for a particular park. National Umpire Association who books East Cobb is always looking to expand but the park would have to reach out to them. The tournament directors have no say so on who the umpires are, they must use who the park uses for umpires. |
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Roddwil
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 14:06:49
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I want to sort of clear my name as it relates to the umpires since I have gotten several complaints about the tournament. I DID NOT PROVIDE THE UMPIRES for this years Slugfest. I am part of Umpire group Athletic & Sports Officials that did provide the umpires from 2005 to 2009 for the Slugfest.
When we handled the umpires there was very little negative chatter about the officiating; however, this year Tournament made the decision to go in a different direction.
We always made and make every attempt to put quality umpires on the field. Last year (2009) we used 84 umpires to cover the event and 67 were active high school umpires.
I am not here to slam any umpire or umpire group, I just wanted to clear our name from what seems to have not been a great experience for some. We would welcome the chance to again work with the Slugfest or with any of you that might have your own events. References can be provided on request.
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Jim Stros
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 14:09:30
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The National Umpires Association- Is ready if your willing to make the change.
www.nuaumpiresusa.org
National Director
Jim Stros
jim@nuaumpiresusa.org
National Umpires Association the nations top umpire Association in the country and voted the nations top group in 2008 and 2009 by Baseball America and USA Baseball is directed by Jim Stros, of Woodstock Ga. originally from Detroit, Michigan. Jim is a 1990 graduate of Michigan State University. At Michigan State, Jim was a relief pitcher from 1987-1990. He currently holds three single season Big Ten appearance records as one of the all-time leaders in career appearances at Michigan State. After graduation, Jim had the opportunity to pursue baseball professionally for three seasons in the spring of 91-93, then found another love for the game after becoming an umpire 20 years ago.
For the past 20 years Jim has umpired at all levels working several Perfect Game National Championship games over the years and has built numerous relationships with high school and college coaches across the country. In 1993, at the Major League Umpires International Camp, professional umpires Mike Reilly, Joe Brinkman, Paul Nauert and Gerry Davis selected Jim as the #1 umpire in his class. Jim was also voted Most Outstanding Umpire in his class at the 1993 NCAA Southern Umpires School. Jim went on to umpire four full NCAA college seasons before becoming the director full time for National Umpires Association.
Recently Jim was selected to work Home Plate at the 2008 AFLAC All-American Classic game played at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, California and also worked the 2009 AFLAC Classic played at Petco Park in San Diego, California. Both games were televised nationally by Fox Sports Net..
National Umpires Association is the largest amateur umpire associations in the country. It is based in Atlanta, Georgia it's membership consists of numerous college and high school umpires from all over the country. Places like Georgia, Texas, Florida, Kansas, Missouri, Tennessee, California, Michigan, Ohio, North Carolina, South Carolina, Louisiana, Kentucky, Canada, West Virginia, Washington, Massachusetts and Oregon just to name a few.
NUA works National Tournaments such as the Perfect Game USA National Championship Series, CABA World Series, USSSA Super NIT and the Triple Crown Series as well as local youth programs. |
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cam1
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 14:24:56
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| What about the fact that TD's in a tournament as big as the slugfest have teams that they coach in the tournament? I think this is a major issue and one that I would like someone from USSSA respond to. |
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Thunder
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 14:37:31
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Just as with anything in life or sports, there is going to be differentiation of good, middle of the road and bad. There are good coaches, there are bad coaches. There are good employees, average employees and bad employees. There are good umpires and bad umpires. Overall, from what I heard, the umpiring was pretty good in this tournament. However, there were some valid and legitimate complaints as well.
When there were issues, they were addressed with the umpire association, even to the point of removing a couple of umpires. It's unfair to say that nobody took an interest because that is not the case. An age director took action when needed just as I did when some issues first began to surface. Some complaints just can't be addressed because its a difference in what one person sees versus another. A coach standing at 3rd base or a fan sitting in the stands from 60 feet away doesn't have the same angle and isn't as close to the play as an umpire. One sees it safe, the other sees it as out. One has to believe that the umpire who was 10 feet from the bag looking straight at the tag has a better view that the angry coach or fan. Yet, they're going to complain that the umpire is horrible.
I have no idea who the CAM1 poster is and which age director that you're referring to....I was the overall tournament director and did have my 14u team in the tournament and I was with my team for the 2 hours that it took to play a game keeping the book and making subsitutions. During this time, I answered phone calls and returned phone calls, answered emails and left my team to do the trophy presentation in another age group. So this tournament was being managed by myself and the individual age directors. And, had there been a problem in our age group (14's), I would have removed myself from being any part of ruling.
Some of the issues raised here are worthy of having additional conversation with the umpire association.
bill moats |
Edited by - Thunder on 03/08/2010 14:54:11 |
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rock44melnix
110 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 14:52:00
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| We played at Bennett Park, overall wasn't too bad. I would say it was really no different than what we see most weekends at various venues. Absolutely a few bad calls occurred, certainly questions on various ball/strike calls - we saw that this weekend too. Biggest frustrations always seem to be what we perceive as an evolving strike zone during a game. Papa, nothing worse though than having an on site TD that is not responsive, well what might be worse would be one that has a conflict of interest as appeared to take place in S.Jag game. |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:05:29
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IMO the umpires in the 13Major group were pretty bad. One of the umpires is actually a good friend of mine and he and his partner did a awful job all weekend. With that said it's what I love about sports. There are going to be bad calls from time to time but that just helps in leaning the tough life lessons.
I do want to add that a lot of tournament directors do have a choice in the umpires they use. It is not always up to the park they are using to host the event. I'm very good friends with a local tournament director as well and we have had many conversations about switching umpires due to complaints which he keeps on record. He does this to track if there is a pattern or if it's just an unhappy coach. He will request that a particular umpire not be used in the future if he feels necessary. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:15:54
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Bill,
What umpiring association were you using? It might be beneficial to post an Association contact for people to submit complaints if they feel it is warranted. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:29:51
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| 10u at Coal Mountain seemed fine by me. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 15:41:52
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With all the talk about South Ga. getting bad calls while in North Ga. and vice a versa and with the Super NIT being a USSSA tourny just like the Slugfest I just hope they don't use the same umpires. If they do a team from Florida want have much of a chance in Ga.
To be honest with you guys we have never had an issue with the umpires while we have played in Ga. |
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dgersh22
169 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2010 : 16:32:10
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| We played in the 12u AA bracket at Sawnee Mountain, before are first game started the home plate umpire said he hopes this game gets over with quick because he needs a break, twice in the same game we had the opposing teams shortstop obsruct our runner trying to steal third, no call. In the next game we had a play at the plate where the runner jumped over our catcher and tried to score, the umpire did not know the proper ruling and had to confer with the base umpire, there was no ejection. The strike zone seemed to change based on the score of the game or how much time was left in the game. We love this tournament because it is great competition close to home, lets just do something about the umpiring. I also couldn't tell you who the TD was for our division, I never seen him. |
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Topic |
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SLUGFEST CENTRAL PARK UMPIRES
