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teddy41
421 Posts |
 Posted - 02/22/2010 : 17:48:40
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| How do most teams,parents,coaches,players feel about teams that are already pretty darn good borrowing players to bring into tournaments as hired guns for a weekend. What message are you sending your players? I am not talking about replacing injured or vacationing players i am talking about coaches who want to win so bad that they will bring in every astro or viper type player they can find to one up the next team for the weekend event. |
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scottwill311
52 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2010 : 21:55:41
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| As a parent and player on another team its none of my business, because I don't know all the facts about obtaining the "hired guns." Some questions I would ask-- Is the team missing players due to high school ball? Its early in the season, are they trying not to abuse pitchers? Are the Astro/Viper players on an inactive team due to the fact they can't field a team? Does bringing these Astro/Viper type players on board give the kids an opportunity to play some games? But,that makes too much sense--its gotta be the "want to win so bad coaching staff." Some coaches just don't have enough trophies! |
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PumknHead
81 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2010 : 22:19:09
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| I think it's a bad idea to bring in players for the weekend. Play with what you have! Bring in new players in the off season! Come on guys their KIDS! |
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mikewells
45 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 08:22:01
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Dude this is an awesome topic and one that eats me up whenever we see it .
Its all simple : are you on the team for the duration of the season like really on the team , or are you on the team to help make it a better team for right now in others words just for some wins ?!
Cuz if thats the deal its a real bad message to kids who started up early in the year , parents dropped the bucks to play then all of a sudden : who's this Dude in my position and why didnt we hear about this when we signed up ?!
Those wins dont mean anything if it was with hired guns except maybe to the coaches and a few parents egos I mean why couldnt you win without em??
Wow this gives me some good hopes about high school ball where this hired gun stuff never could happen !!
Loyalty or lack of loyalty can be a really good message or really bad message : any excuses and reasons for it not being shown are cheap talk meaningless !!
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 08:42:53
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| Last season, at 9U we were approached by another team to have our son play with them in a national tournament. Thier manager did ask our team manager directly to make sure there would not be a scheduling conflict. To me, the inviting team wanted to make sure they had what it takes to win. Although it was a nice ego boost for my son, we declined. We made a commitment to his team and I thought it sent the wrong message both to my son and his team mates. Now, if he were closer to high school, I may have felt differently. |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 09:09:52
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IMHO, as stated by someone else "Come on guys these are kids" well this is true and I believe that for the most part most of these kids will never play past HS so if they get the opportunity to feel like a stud or the big dog when asked to play for another team then let them. Had I declined the offer when asked to play for the Memphis Wildcats at the NYBC my son would have never gotten to pitch on national TV. Had I declined the offer to play with the Bandits in the Fall State my son would have never made the friends he did with that group.
Talk about commitment, Im commited to my son to try and give him the best opportunities that I possibly can and especially the ones that he himself earns. When all this baseball stuff is over and all we are left with are the memories I would like to remember that I gave him every opportunity to succeed and the rest is up to him.
A different way to look at this would be as a learning experience. My oldest son is playing HS ball and I will tell you the coaches are a hard bunch as a kid to get used to. What Im saying that as a travelball player and playing on different teams better prepares them for the different personalities of coaches. Not all of them are your dads best friend and hang out for backyard B-B-Q so a different coach every now and again can only help them. |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 09:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by 10 BB
IMHO, as stated by someone else "Come on guys these are kids" well this is true and I believe that for the most part most of these kids will never play past HS so if they get the opportunity to feel like a stud or the big dog when asked to play for another team then let them. Had I declined the offer when asked to play for the Memphis Wildcats at the NYBC my son would have never gotten to pitch on national TV. Had I declined the offer to play with the Bandits in the Fall State my son would have never made the friends he did with that group.
Talk about commitment, Im commited to my son to try and give him the best opportunities that I possibly can and especially the ones that he himself earns. When all this baseball stuff is over and all we are left with are the memories I would like to remember that I gave him every opportunity to succeed and the rest is up to him.
A different way to look at this would be as a learning experience. My oldest son is playing HS ball and I will tell you the coaches are a hard bunch as a kid to get used to. What Im saying that as a travelball player and playing on different teams better prepares them for the different personalities of coaches. Not all of them are your dads best friend and hang out for backyard B-B-Q so a different coach every now and again can only help them.
UHHHH It seems the point about "these are kids" was actually favoring the other teammates and families , not the individual family or player who benefits while others do not. |
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 10:35:37
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ok, I know where this is stemming from and apparently I am one of the ones being called out here since my son is one of the 3 in question.
Just to clarify things, the 3 Astros playing with the Stallions are 8th graders. The rest of the Astros are 9th graders and playing JV or Varsity. As parents of the 3, we had to find an opportunity for our kids to play between now and May. Based on a discussion back in August between the Astros head coach and the Stallions head coach, the Stallions coaches were nice enough to allow these three to come work out and play until the Astros season started. (I can hear the peanut gallery saying "I bet they did." but realize that adding players sometimes can bring on it's own challenges if you don't have a good plan on how to incorporate them in.)
They had a few kids that made the JV or Varsity team so it worked out more as a wash than addition.
Just so we have our facts straight:
*The Stallions did not NEED to add these 3 players. They have great players without them.
*These 3 were not added for any specific tournament or tournaments. Just whatever the activities were that were going on during that time.
*The Astros coach has been helping with some of the practices to give back to the full-time Stallions players so it is not a "One way street". Trying to be respectful to the parents that their kids are not being hindered from the addition of these players.
If anyone thinks that winning some early tournaments is of significance, you may want to assess your priorities. Early season games are for getting kids playing time and getting back into a flow of playing. Seeing live pitching, live batters, and live fielding.
The weather is so iffy in Feb and March who knows how much playing will actually get in, but just so we are all straight about this one specific situation, no players were brought in to win any tournament.
Get your facts straight before trying to come in and stir up something that is not the case. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 11:21:38
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| I think being the "hired gun" at this age and level is a selfish move by the parents of that child. Yes it is an honor and exciting to be approached by other teams but you already made a commitement to the team you are on. Your son has plenty of opportunity to showcase his talents on his own team. If you bounce your kid around to the highest bidder what are you teaching them when it comes to loyalty, commitement, and team pride. If you think the grass is greener on the other side, make the move during the off season. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 11:27:42
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Let me start by saying I do not consider my son a "stud" but I want to weigh in with our experiences.
The times my son has played for another team when the team had a position that needed to be filled, meaning that they were short a player for some reason, were great. This actually lead to him being on his current team.
The one time he played for another team as a "hired gun", was not so good. He enjoyed meeting all the kids but didn't enjoy the role of "pitcher only".
He has really enjoyed each opportunity, even the "hired gun" situation to some degree. The other players seemed to really enjoy having him as part of their team also. He and our family have also made some friends through the process that still exist today. Each of these situations is different and I'm sure some of them are not good for anybody. All of the situations are not bad though. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 11:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by mikewells
Wow this gives me some good hopes about high school ball where this hired gun stuff never could happen !!
Rumor is that several Lassiter football players are going to leave now that their head coach moved on to Troy.
I know you're talking game to game and weekend to weekend, but still...
Plus it's a rumor which is worth slightly less than an opinion.  |
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FB COACH
25 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:39:29
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Thanks Greg,I have been wanting to say just that all day...
I am very thankful that the Stallion coachs/players/ and parents have allowed and welcomed my son to come in and participate in this years "spring" season.
SW |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:44:00
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Alter, this thread was no way started as a shot at your kid or any other, i am not even sure what players your talking about but more of a general question. I usually ask 2 questions when my kid is asked to play for a team.
1. will it cause other players to sit who normally would not
2. will my son get to play as i hate to get him hyped up to have him come sit
It is tough with pitchers though as if you need pitchers and a kid who is not one may have to sit.
I also do not let my kid play for a coach or team i do not respect and if i think it is a "lets win a local tourney" i do not do it. If it is a we are going to ripken,nit,panama and have to have extra's i will do it.
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Edited by - teddy41 on 02/23/2010 18:47:48 |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:52:36
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Great to see your name back on the board Mr. Lomax.
Sorry it had to be in this manner. |
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scorpion4
31 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 13:53:07
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| To me it's pretty simple...................kids should learn, at a young age, to play for the name on the FRONT of their jersey, not the name on the back. That being said, as long as it does not affect the team they are comitted to, taking advantage of opportunities to experience different circumstances could be a good thing as they get older. |
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clg003
79 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 14:10:44
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There is no team concept in upper level travel ball. That’s part of the issue. We are all so used to pulling for our team. Could you just imagine if the Braves borrowed some cy young award winners just for the playoffs. It’s a really foreign ideal that doesn’t sit well with fans. I get that but I am not sure it’s the same thing.
If you’re on a team that sits your son because someone else has been hired to help out then I would leave the team, unless you knew this ahead of time. Things like this teach your child he is not good enough and could hamper his mental maturity. Many kids need to know you have faith in them and the only thing that is lacking from them is hard work. I know some will say it should motivate the kid blah, blah, blah. People forget they are kids who are developing mentally as well as physically and not every kid matures the same way but the environment you place your kid in can affect how they grow. That has been proven.
I have coached many kids who have been on teams that flew people in from other states to play in almost every single one of their tournaments and their kids had to sit. It was sold to them as "This is big time travel ball". The kids left the team and now the team no longer exists because they couldn’t keep their core together.
I understand people are competitive by nature and I personally think travel ball sanctions should forbid this altogether. I understand the need to join a fall team when your team doesn’t play fall or switching teams altogether for personal reasons, but jumping from one team to the other during the season is bad on many levels and whatever little perks someone can justify for doing it there can be many more negatives pointed out that I am sure they would ignore. I often can’t believe the “I am going to do what’s best for my kid regardless of what other kids it crushes attitude”. If pitching on National TV is so important to you then join a team who is going to be competitive on that level or start your own TV station to show everyone in the world how great your kid is. Or heck just go out an purchase some super bowl air time to show a highlight reel of your kid so everyone can stroke the egos even more so. If college is your concern send a highlight reel of your kid to recruiters. There are even websites dedicated to promoting kids directly to colleges (No not scout or rivals) so having National exposure doesn’t mean much of anything anymore. If he can play and help a team win games, he will be found.
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mikewells
45 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 14:25:04
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quote:
Originally posted by greglomax
ok, I know where this is stemming from and apparently I am one of the ones being called out here since my son is one of the 3 in question.
Just to clarify things, the 3 Astros playing with the Stallions are 8th graders. The rest of the Astros are 9th graders and playing JV or Varsity. As parents of the 3, we had to find an opportunity for our kids to play between now and May. Based on a discussion back in August between the Astros head coach and the Stallions head coach, the Stallions coaches were nice enough to allow these three to come work out and play until the Astros season started. (I can hear the peanut gallery saying "I bet they did." but realize that adding players sometimes can bring on it's own challenges if you don't have a good plan on how to incorporate them in.)
They had a few kids that made the JV or Varsity team so it worked out more as a wash than addition.
Just so we have our facts straight:
*The Stallions did not NEED to add these 3 players. They have great players without them.
*These 3 were not added for any specific tournament or tournaments. Just whatever the activities were that were going on during that time.
*The Astros coach has been helping with some of the practices to give back to the full-time Stallions players so it is not a "One way street". Trying to be respectful to the parents that their kids are not being hindered from the addition of these players.
If anyone thinks that winning some early tournaments is of significance, you may want to assess your priorities. Early season games are for getting kids playing time and getting back into a flow of playing. Seeing live pitching, live batters, and live fielding.
The weather is so iffy in Feb and March who knows how much playing will actually get in, but just so we are all straight about this one specific situation, no players were brought in to win any tournament.
Get your facts straight before trying to come in and stir up something that is not the case.
WOW ! I dont know who you are or what you talk about here only giving my opinion to the topic ! |
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goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 17:43:05
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Having seen this post and responses I must say that, being a dad of a kid who has some other kids joining him for spring ball, that it has been great having the chance to knock it around with some kids who we have always known or competed with. Heck, some of them have gone to school together for eons and have never had the opportunity to practice, much less PLAY together. I'm a firm believer in practicing with and against the best you can as well as playing with and against the best you can...it helps the kids progress, right?
That said, thank you to the players who are allowing us to field a team in the spring as well as the coaches who are helping our young men progress in a sport they LOVE!! To the parents of those players... it's been awesome getting to know you better and share stories of past and present - let's have some fun. If we happen to win one or two fine...I bet our kids and coaches might even forego the trophy to gain the experience and friendships found! SW, AE, 3rd - good having ya! |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 20:14:03
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To be fair it is not always the top teams that do it to get stronger How ironic it is that have seen major teams complain that other major teams are bringing in players and should be in a "new class" such as elite travel.
I think at major and above at age 15 and up all is fair. However the player your sitting so you can win with another kid will not help you when you need the kid later on.
I think it is almost worse when a AAA or AA team borrow a higher class player who is not frozen (yes its legal) to beat the other local teams with. I have also noticed most of the Pro-borrow a player comment have all come from the players getting borrowed-duh no kidding. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2010 : 21:11:59
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| Bmoser, how bout you chime in on this one. Your team borrowed a couple of major kids for a tournament last Fall. How did the parents, players and coaches feel about the experience ?? |
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greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 09:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
Alter, this thread was no way started as a shot at your kid or any other, i am not even sure what players your talking about but more of a general question. I usually ask 2 questions when my kid is asked to play for a team.
1. will it cause other players to sit who normally would not
2. will my son get to play as i hate to get him hyped up to have him come sit
It is tough with pitchers though as if you need pitchers and a kid who is not one may have to sit.
I also do not let my kid play for a coach or team i do not respect and if i think it is a "lets win a local tourney" i do not do it. If it is a we are going to ripken,nit,panama and have to have extra's i will do it.
Teddy,
You have to understand my offense when the statement "every astro or viper type player they can find" was included in your original post. Had you left that specific statement out, I would have taken the subject as a discussion about teams that pick up a player, during the season when the players' primary team is taking a weekend off, just to try to get an edge and win a tournament. This is a totally different subject. Unless the player is playing as part of a rehab effort, just to try to get work from coming off of a injury, there will be questioning whether it is the right thing or not.
This subject seemed to take on two different conversations. One specific and one general. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 12:33:53
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| Bandit 13 maybe I can help with this one. That was a fall tourney and without adding a few players we would not have been able to field a team that weekend. The Warriors have never nor will ever bring in "hired guns" to go trophy hunting. That would mean sitting down our "regular players", not gonna happen! What a surprise when we heard a couple of major players (Bandits, Grip, Bay Bombers ?) were going to join us for the weekend. To further answer your question, our kids loved playing with these great players, and it brought our level of play up as a whole. The parents didn't mind because their kids were on the field for some quality baseball. It was a good experience for everyone involved and it gave our players and coaches a glimpse at the "next level" which is what we want to achieve. Now me personally, I'm old school. I believe in playing the cards you are dealt. |
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patent pending
66 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 12:50:02
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| First thing that comes to mind , last year , the Chiefs bringing in the Fla .Fire players. Rumor was they were flying these players in just to play the weekend. Gave our team a opportunity to play a highly talented team . We found out we were just as good with players all from the same county. Not to mention 75% all went to the same school. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2010 : 16:38:57
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Now i see why the studs were brought in ;}
I am bringing in anyone who can walk on the field and throw a ball, i think the injury bug has hit early |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2010 : 09:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by warrior
Bandit 13 maybe I can help with this one. That was a fall tourney and without adding a few players we would not have been able to field a team that weekend. The Warriors have never nor will ever bring in "hired guns" to go trophy hunting. That would mean sitting down our "regular players", not gonna happen! What a surprise when we heard a couple of major players (Bandits, Grip, Bay Bombers ?) were going to join us for the weekend. To further answer your question, our kids loved playing with these great players, and it brought our level of play up as a whole. The parents didn't mind because their kids were on the field for some quality baseball. It was a good experience for everyone involved and it gave our players and coaches a glimpse at the "next level" which is what we want to achieve. Now me personally, I'm old school. I believe in playing the cards you are dealt.
Well, my the point I was trying to make is that it isn't always a bad thing and there are circumstances where it is beneficial to both the borrowed player and the team. Thanks for your input warrior. I hope you guys do really well this year. |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2010 : 18:32:53
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A friend and coach who also frequents this website brought up this topic when we spoke today. He has coached for a long time and my son has played many games with his team and another for years including the World Series. He told me that he always felt the level of play of all the players on his team increased when we came for a weekend. The only reason we did not play for the team full time is because we wanted to play on what we felt was a more competitive team and a couple of years I coached as well. I don't consider my son a stud or anything like that, but I do think he is a solid ballplayer. He has friends on this team as we are friends with the parents. We were like extended family when we got together with the team. Season after season he would keep my son's jersey number open and order an extra jersey for us. What can I say; we are a travel ball family. My son loves to play ball and my wife and I love to watch him play. The coach would always have a parent or two (normally someone who was new to his team in our case) who feels threatened that their son is going to lose something because a new player comes for a weekend.
Before I stopped coaching I picked up a player for a weekend that I would be missing a couple. I made sure that if there was anyone who lost anything it was my son who I pulled in every game and in one he only came in to courtesy run once. I did this to ensure no one felt they lost any playing time. After the tournament there were still complaints about the player being brought on. Everyone seemed to forget that in one of the games a player got hurt and if I wouldn’t have picked up the player we would have ended the game with only 8.
IMO and from my experience...if there is ever a problem with a player being picked up for a weekend it's a "parent" problem and not a problem with the players. When my son would go to play it was like reuniting with cousins you haven’t seen in a while. The kids would seem to pick up right where they last left off. Even though the kids are happy there is always a parent who chooses to look at what they feel their child is losing with a player addition. What about what the players could gain? Kids learn a lot from playing with other kids. The situation turns bad when kids pick up things from their parents. If a parent doesn’t like a pickup he puts his/her negative attitude into their son. Not to mention the things said in the car while little kid is listening.
I’m just saying that not all these situations are bad especially if given a chance to understand the background. |
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Borrowing stud or really good players
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