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mikewells
45 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2010 : 09:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by ljames
A friend and coach who also frequents this website brought up this topic when we spoke today. He has coached for a long time and my son has played many games with his team and another for years including the World Series. He told me that he always felt the level of play of all the players on his team increased when we came for a weekend. The only reason we did not play for the team full time is because we wanted to play on what we felt was a more competitive team and a couple of years I coached as well. I don't consider my son a stud or anything like that, but I do think he is a solid ballplayer. He has friends on this team as we are friends with the parents. We were like extended family when we got together with the team. Season after season he would keep my son's jersey number open and order an extra jersey for us. What can I say; we are a travel ball family. My son loves to play ball and my wife and I love to watch him play. The coach would always have a parent or two (normally someone who was new to his team in our case) who feels threatened that their son is going to lose something because a new player comes for a weekend.
Before I stopped coaching I picked up a player for a weekend that I would be missing a couple. I made sure that if there was anyone who lost anything it was my son who I pulled in every game and in one he only came in to courtesy run once. I did this to ensure no one felt they lost any playing time. After the tournament there were still complaints about the player being brought on. Everyone seemed to forget that in one of the games a player got hurt and if I wouldn’t have picked up the player we would have ended the game with only 8.
IMO and from my experience...if there is ever a problem with a player being picked up for a weekend it's a "parent" problem and not a problem with the players. When my son would go to play it was like reuniting with cousins you haven’t seen in a while. The kids would seem to pick up right where they last left off. Even though the kids are happy there is always a parent who chooses to look at what they feel their child is losing with a player addition. What about what the players could gain? Kids learn a lot from playing with other kids. The situation turns bad when kids pick up things from their parents. If a parent doesn’t like a pickup he puts his/her negative attitude into their son. Not to mention the things said in the car while little kid is listening.
I’m just saying that not all these situations are bad especially if given a chance to understand the background.
jamesy your laying down some good thoughts dude !
But now remember the parents who react negative to incomers and "studs" for purpose of this thread : they pay for the team fees the uniforms the motels the burger king lunches , the motels and they drive the kids all over creation for thesee games and practices : time is money too !
So now I understand the parent discontent over studs or temporary incomers like what are they paying ?
If you dont see my point then pay some bucks back to the parents next time in and you may start understanding , sir ! |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by mikewells
quote:
Originally posted by ljames
A friend and coach who also frequents this website brought up this topic when we spoke today. He has coached for a long time and my son has played many games with his team and another for years including the World Series. He told me that he always felt the level of play of all the players on his team increased when we came for a weekend. The only reason we did not play for the team full time is because we wanted to play on what we felt was a more competitive team and a couple of years I coached as well. I don't consider my son a stud or anything like that, but I do think he is a solid ballplayer. He has friends on this team as we are friends with the parents. We were like extended family when we got together with the team. Season after season he would keep my son's jersey number open and order an extra jersey for us. What can I say; we are a travel ball family. My son loves to play ball and my wife and I love to watch him play. The coach would always have a parent or two (normally someone who was new to his team in our case) who feels threatened that their son is going to lose something because a new player comes for a weekend.
Before I stopped coaching I picked up a player for a weekend that I would be missing a couple. I made sure that if there was anyone who lost anything it was my son who I pulled in every game and in one he only came in to courtesy run once. I did this to ensure no one felt they lost any playing time. After the tournament there were still complaints about the player being brought on. Everyone seemed to forget that in one of the games a player got hurt and if I wouldn’t have picked up the player we would have ended the game with only 8.
IMO and from my experience...if there is ever a problem with a player being picked up for a weekend it's a "parent" problem and not a problem with the players. When my son would go to play it was like reuniting with cousins you haven’t seen in a while. The kids would seem to pick up right where they last left off. Even though the kids are happy there is always a parent who chooses to look at what they feel their child is losing with a player addition. What about what the players could gain? Kids learn a lot from playing with other kids. The situation turns bad when kids pick up things from their parents. If a parent doesn’t like a pickup he puts his/her negative attitude into their son. Not to mention the things said in the car while little kid is listening.
I’m just saying that not all these situations are bad especially if given a chance to understand the background.
jamesy your laying down some good thoughts dude !
But now remember the parents who react negative to incomers and "studs" for purpose of this thread : they pay for the team fees the uniforms the motels the burger king lunches , the motels and they drive the kids all over creation for thesee games and practices : time is money too !
So now I understand the parent discontent over studs or temporary incomers like what are they paying ?
If you dont see my point then pay some bucks back to the parents next time in and you may start understanding , sir !
Point well taken mikewells. When we would pick up with this team for tournaments I would actually give the coach whatever the tournament fee was divided by the number of players on the team that weekend. I understand that doesn't come out to much (simple numbers...$400 tournament/11 players = @$36) but it's just for a weekend of baseball. Maybe it's still not right, but we didn't take a free ride. |
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bambino_dad
119 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 00:44:49
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I remember discussing this issue last year re the Chiefs, Florida Fire, and Team Easton imports. It seemed like things were trending toward everybody picking somebody up every major tourney weekend.
I submitted the idea that picking up stud players is a decision to benefit ONLY the above average players and teams. I stand behind that.
Baseball is like any other athletic endeavor in which talent and skills are distributed on a Bell Curve at a snapshot in time. Studs and Scrubs are at either end of the Bell, with most players fitting in the center. But the more the weekend trend inclines toward stud pickups, the irony is that the studs only wind up playing against each other as average to below average players - and by extension their teams - are easily eliminated from competition again and again.
Teams must know where they are skill-wise and decide if playing in a major tournament and assuming the expenses that go along with that is worth it if a quarter of the teams participating are picking up Studs.
I think this applies even with average to below average players (49% or below) on the team picking up the Stud player(s). These players play less as they are relegated to the bench or spot play, they are regarded less as athletes, and, of course, have less of an impact on the outcome of the game.
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mikewells
45 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 09:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ljames
quote:
Originally posted by mikewells
quote:
Originally posted by ljames
A friend and coach who also frequents this website brought up this topic when we spoke today. He has coached for a long time and my son has played many games with his team and another for years including the World Series. He told me that he always felt the level of play of all the players on his team increased when we came for a weekend. The only reason we did not play for the team full time is because we wanted to play on what we felt was a more competitive team and a couple of years I coached as well. I don't consider my son a stud or anything like that, but I do think he is a solid ballplayer. He has friends on this team as we are friends with the parents. We were like extended family when we got together with the team. Season after season he would keep my son's jersey number open and order an extra jersey for us. What can I say; we are a travel ball family. My son loves to play ball and my wife and I love to watch him play. The coach would always have a parent or two (normally someone who was new to his team in our case) who feels threatened that their son is going to lose something because a new player comes for a weekend.
Before I stopped coaching I picked up a player for a weekend that I would be missing a couple. I made sure that if there was anyone who lost anything it was my son who I pulled in every game and in one he only came in to courtesy run once. I did this to ensure no one felt they lost any playing time. After the tournament there were still complaints about the player being brought on. Everyone seemed to forget that in one of the games a player got hurt and if I wouldn’t have picked up the player we would have ended the game with only 8.
IMO and from my experience...if there is ever a problem with a player being picked up for a weekend it's a "parent" problem and not a problem with the players. When my son would go to play it was like reuniting with cousins you haven’t seen in a while. The kids would seem to pick up right where they last left off. Even though the kids are happy there is always a parent who chooses to look at what they feel their child is losing with a player addition. What about what the players could gain? Kids learn a lot from playing with other kids. The situation turns bad when kids pick up things from their parents. If a parent doesn’t like a pickup he puts his/her negative attitude into their son. Not to mention the things said in the car while little kid is listening.
I’m just saying that not all these situations are bad especially if given a chance to understand the background.
jamesy your laying down some good thoughts dude !
But now remember the parents who react negative to incomers and "studs" for purpose of this thread : they pay for the team fees the uniforms the motels the burger king lunches , the motels and they drive the kids all over creation for thesee games and practices : time is money too !
So now I understand the parent discontent over studs or temporary incomers like what are they paying ?
If you dont see my point then pay some bucks back to the parents next time in and you may start understanding , sir !
Point well taken mikewells. When we would pick up with this team for tournaments I would actually give the coach whatever the tournament fee was divided by the number of players on the team that weekend. I understand that doesn't come out to much (simple numbers...$400 tournament/11 players = @$36) but it's just for a weekend of baseball. Maybe it's still not right, but we didn't take a free ride.
youre a fair man I wish all would do the same as you have |
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BaseballJunky12
49 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 23:36:43
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| Although I agree with you that kids probably wouldn't be upset if the parents weren't, parents know right from wrong when kids don't. The kids don't understand the investment made by the parents and in a lot of situations the family has had to go without some things in life so their kid can play travel baseball. I think it is wrong to pick up players. I am sure it is fun for you to play with "old cousins" or friends and you are in good with the coach, but if one player has to sit 1 inning so you can reunite with friends, then I disagree with it. If they only have 8 players then I understand. If you are concerned with if a player gets hurt then come and sit the bench the whole game and only play if someone gets hurt. |
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pcc
28 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 00:02:15
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| Let me start by saying that if a team is short players and need you for the ninth player then I totally agree that is is OK to pickup with a team. I don't even think that paying the $36 would be necessary because you are doing this team a favor so that they can play the game with 9 players. With that said, I am really surprised that you would post this ljames. I don't understand at all how anyone can think that this is OK. There are so many other cost involved with travel baseball that the $36 is really an insult. Most travel teams cost $1300-2000 or more depending on how many tournaments and how much traveling is being done. This does not include Cooperstown if you are in the 10U or 12U age groups. Most teams will play in 10-15 tournaments depending on different factors. So for arguments sake lets say you play in 15 tournaments and pay $1500. The average is $100 a tournament. I know that a lot of the cost are uniforms, bat bags, etc. but when you play FULL TIME on these teams you don't have a choice. If you want to play, you have to pay. So even at $100 a tournament per player (which is conservative and has always averaged more on all the teams my sons have played on) you are talking about a lot more than $36. Also, the parents who's sons are sitting are losing innings that their son could be playing which when broken down is pretty expensive per inning. I understand that it is fun for you and some of the other families you are friends with, it is not fair to everyone and I think that is why some families do not like it. If EVERY family agrees that they want your son to play then there is no problem, but if even one family disagrees I think you should make their desires more important than yours or your sons desires because they are ACTUALLY on the team and have invested a year of their life to play on this team and to play as much as possible. Good luck in the future but since you made the post and therefore opened yourself up for comments......I think your point of view is selfish and you should avoid in the future without consent from EVERY family. Just my opinion. |
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Tball
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 18:35:03
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| It's one thing to pick up a player to be able to play in a tournament... it's another to pick up a player to WIN a tournament! |
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patent pending
66 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 18:41:53
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| PCC First you must understand the Parents don't decide who plays. Or who is invited to play . If you fail to realize this you will A. never be on a great team or B . you will be a angry cancer sore parent to your childs team. We all know it cost money to play. So if you've calculated it to the inning, You've went to far. You would love for your son to sit aside while ljames son put on a clinic. And be happy to pay him 36$ for service. If you want to be the best you must beat the best. Even if it's a pickup team. Welcome to the bigs were teams are being built ,bought and paid for everyday. |
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stanlewis
545 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 22:45:22
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No more replies are going to be posted on this topic. It is obvious that this is a very volatile subject. It is to the point that the "Wheat cannot be separated from the chaff". There are so many posts that are over the top in terms of attacking, accusing and name calling that the good replies cannot be sorted out.
Sorry if this disturbs some people, but there is no answer to the subject that will come close to satisfying people on the opposite ends of the spectrum. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 03:48:02
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This is a great topic to share with you how we in Florida started dealing with this. Because teams were going out and bring in as some have called it guns for hire. Our state Usssa director in all his wisdom implemented news rules to be apply to the spring season only. These rules are as follows.
In Florida starting the 2nd week in Feb, ALL ROSTERS ARE LOCKED. Managers can not add or remove a player with out submitting paper work to the state. Players are allowed 2 moves in the spring season. If a player from team A goes and guest plays for team B then team A has to contact the state office and submit paperwork to have that player removed from his roster and added to team B roster. This constitutes 1 move. After that tournament is over if the player wishes to go back to team A then team B has to request from the state office to have that player removed from their roster and added back to team A roster. This counts as that players second move. If that player leaves team A again for any reason they will not be permitted to play for any other team in that age group for the rest of the spring season.
In addition to that rule. Florida also applied another rule. Once rosters are locked that 2nd week in Feb if you are on say a AAA team. If you leave that team you are only allowed as a player to play for another AAA team. If you play say for an 11u AAA and wish to play 12u. You are only allowed to play for a 12u AAA and cant move up to 12u Major. This rule was put in place to prevent sand bagging. It forces players/parents to carefully consider which division their child should play in.
Im not sure what its like in Georgia but in Florida we have major issues with teams bringing in hired guns for a tournament. In the fall we had 12u AA teams bringing in 3 or 4 top 12u Major players just for one 12u AA tournament. Plenty of people here are upset about it but it has really forced teams, players and coaches to evaluate team dynamics. |
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 09:04:07
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| Let me bring annother scenario into the mix. What if a player knowingly is on two rosters at the same time using a different first name -- One major and another AAA? How is this controlled and if detected what is the consequence? Since no one @ USSSA is checking birth certificates in a central location I'm sure there is more than circumstance where this is happening. |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 12:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by beanball
Let me bring annother scenario into the mix. What if a player knowingly is on two rosters at the same time using a different first name -- One major and another AAA? How is this controlled and if detected what is the consequence? Since no one @ USSSA is checking birth certificates in a central location I'm sure there is more than circumstance where this is happening.
I don't know if you can control it. Just because you check a birth certificate doesn't mean those are the actual players on the field. There are consequences though if caught and there have been coaches/players caught.
RULE 13.00 – ACTS OF DISBARMENT / SUSPENSION
13.01.K Competing under an assumed name, altered (miss-spelled) name, and / or date of birth.
13.01.O An illegal player as defined by these National By-laws & Rules may be disbarred / suspended for one year.
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 12:55:41
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Sounds like Bubba needs to have the corporate office IT person run a query against the player database and pull any users where the last name, state, and birthdate are the same. Get the players last name and current team and request the Head Coach send him a copy of the kid's birth certificate. Check to see if they are the same and if so, remove the one that does not match the birth certificate.
Looking at the athlete's list, it looks like there needs to be some data purging in their database. |
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 14:29:32
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| Why use 2 names when you can be on a AAA and Major or AA at the same time. |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 14:56:45
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| You are right Alter, something needs to happen to the data. A couple of years back when the "birth" name wasn't a requirement and nicknames or middle names were used caused the problem. They have changed this requirement today so it should help going forward, but I don't know how concerned USSSA is about the old data. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 20:12:10
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| Stan, I thought no more replies were going to be posted ?? |
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stanlewis
545 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2010 : 22:41:57
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| Fair question. During the process of cleaning up this thread some new posts were moderated that were not the same specific issue as the one that got out of hand. There were a couple of follow ups that were allowed through as they were on point with the posts that were posted during the clean-up process. |
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TNBaseball
3 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2010 : 11:43:32
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| This very topic came into play at Cooperstown last year. Lou Presutti gives the kids an hour long talk about not being thugs and respecting the game of baseball then allows it to happen all week long. He allowed an all-star team to compete in the week that we were there. This all-star team was comprised of players who had been on teams that had already won or finished very high. Kids from Tamiami Outlaws, Chiefs, Bullets...etc. They run-ruled everyone they played. They hit homeruns and circled the bases blowing kisses to the cameras. The would even turned around backwards. It was a travesty to the game and Lou permitted it to carry on all week. In the championship game they were announced as an all-star team of kids that had already won at Cooperstown and were booed profusely. I say it's a terrible thing to see 12U kids booed by 2000 adults and kids, but they were booing the attitude more than anything. While my kid still had a great time at Cooperstown, most people left feeling extremely cheated and disgusted with how the situation was allowed to continue. If the players had just played ball and and done away with the ridiculous actions it would have been a different story. I know that often people question what they read as actually being true, but you can go to the Cooperstown website and view it yourself. It was the week of July 18. You can watch games that were played by Team USA baseball, as well as see their roster online. |
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Borrowing stud or really good players
Topic Locked
