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Coach Cole
102 Posts |
 Posted - 04/25/2017 : 11:29:57
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When my son graduated in 2016, I wondered what to expect for playing time in college so I looked at what the 2015 HS grads with college commitments listed on PG did in their freshman 2016 year in college. To have a meaningful statistical group, I looked at 126 kids from several long standing, top travel teams in the Atlanta area. Here were the results for the 51 pitchers with college commitments, only 15 pitched more than 10 innings - those 15 had an average PG velo of 87 mph, the average stats for these 15 pitchers in college was 32 innings in 16 game appearances, 5.4 era, 1.75 k/bb ratio and 288 BAA-college hitters are better so expect your HS stats to not be as good. The spring 2016 college season stats were taken from D1 and D2 players. Of the 25 D1 pitchers, 5 were red shirted and 5 did not show up on 2016 or 2017 rosters. Of the 13 pitchers in D2, 3 were redshirted and 3 did not show up on 2016 or 2017 roster. One of the 3 D3 players did not show up on their 2016 or 2017 roster and the only NAIA pitcher I had in the data was red shirted. Of the 11 PG players listing JUCO/CC commitments, many did not show up on those school's rosters or stats if you could find good web site info.
On the 75 players on the hitting side, 18 kids had over 20 plate appearances with an average of 120 PAs and a BA of 260 (excludes JUCO/CC players). While data from the JUCOs/CCs was more difficult to research, 25 of the 75 PG HS hitters listing college commitments did not show up on the rosters of the colleges they committed; in most all cases, I could not find them on any other roster either.
Conclusion: Grades, injuries, competition, jobs, other distractions can impact playing or playing time as kids transition from HS to college. So choose wisely and keep your expectations reasonable. If you are a 17-18U player looking for a D2 school that is losing 7 college senior starters (better chance of playing!), email me at colejp@comcast.net. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2017 : 15:01:12
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| Nice research. From my experience, if a kid stays on a college roster for all 4 years, he is the exception and you should be proud. Regardless of play time he winds up getting. It is a tough world. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2017 : 15:40:11
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| Coach Cole - so what you are really trying to say is that when you kid graduates and heads off to college it leaves you with way too much time on your hands:) |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2017 : 16:27:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shut Out
Coach Cole - so what you are really trying to say is that when you kid graduates and heads off to college it leaves you with way too much time on your hands:)
Judging from the lack of activity on the message board, that seems to happen after the 14u season.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2017 : 16:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Coach Cole
25 of the 75 PG HS hitters listing college commitments did not show up on the rosters of the colleges they committed; in most all cases, I could not find them on any other roster either.
Did you check MiLB rosters? I know several drafted and signed just in the Atlanta area alone. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2017 : 10:58:05
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HA yea 15 u is when HS coaches break the news your career is over as paying to make a team full of other kids who are paying to make the team is over for you. Now you make teams based on merit and not the check book. However keep the check book out as the booster club is ready for you
Girls and driving come into play as well. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2017 : 11:35:20
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| Heard too many horror stories about high school coaching to put much emphasis on their opinions. Also, if you don't think politics still play a role in high school, you are sadly mistaken. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2017 : 12:42:31
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| people sometimes cry politics cause they still can not admit their kid is not good enough. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2017 : 13:29:27
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Politics can only get you so far in HS and TB. Let's say you have a parent who writes all the right checks, hob-nobs with all the right people and their kid does get on the ultra cool team....now what? Great, he's the 25th player and rides the pine...did you REALLY do that kid any favors?
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2017 : 06:59:06
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While I will agree that most parents are not realistic about their son's potential/talent, that's understandable. What's not, is to take an HS coach's opinion on the same as the end all be all. Talent is not easy to judge, whether it be by a parent, a HS coach, or for that matter, a pro scout. I remember reading a poster on here talking about the HS coach telling his son that he would never play varsity, then the kid has to switch schools and becomes a high level prospect. I suppose the parent should have just listened to the coach and admitted his son was not good enough.
As far as the politics aspect, I would guess it plays some role in every HS program. |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2017 : 13:37:13
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Talent does not always win out when it comes to Highschool Ball. I know of a kid who was a 4 tool player who was a legitimate D1 player but was cut from his Highchool team before his senior year. Why? he had gotten into a problem after school and had a run in with the Athletic Director. The AD and head baseball coach were very tight and I believe that he was cut to make a point. Politics, luck, timing circumstances will always play a part in our lives and we just have to learn how to deal with them. We want life to be fair but it is not always.
I think the statistics from Coach Cole are very telling. There is a lot of attrition that occurs at all levels. Those that have the talent and luck to stay with the game for a long time have a lot to be proud and grateful for. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2017 : 15:38:07
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If your going to claim politics the explan what politics are in HS?
Most HS coaches are removed from everything to do with boosters or cool people they just coach. Its the same crowd crying daddy ball that cry politics just a new word for them |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2017 : 16:11:41
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High School ball is too often basically random nonsense. Both in the integrity of the coach and in the talent of the program any given year.
If you have the wrong coach who lacks integrity:
1.) You aren't playing in front of his midget son no matter what. Or his nephew. Or his daughters boyfriend, Or his daughters prom dream date.
2.) Senior-itus rules. Good luck Freshmen and Sophs
3.) A good booster check$ can circumvent #2. As well as weekend backyard beer drinking fests during offseason.
High School ball shouldn't be that way. There are some coaches out there that run their program with high integrity. And those coaches almost never have problems to deal with because the program expectations are high, and the competition for playing spots is real. Find that coach! It makes all the difference in your opinion of what High School ball is and what it should look like.
And yes this has been a wonderful year, free of bs, free of team infighting and fist fighting, free of boosterism, free of pampered midgets, free of nonsense.
Its all about the integrity of the Coach and flows downward from there. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2017 : 20:07:39
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No HS coach, college either for that matter, is completely removed from the raising money part of their job, if they say they are, then the integrity comes in to question right away. Just because you don't see the conversations, they are happening.
I agree that the politics are probably not as prevalent in the bigger programs where results are expected and coaches are expected to win. With that said, the average HS program, which most are, the coach has no fear of losing his job and there's not a long list of prospective replacements.
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 10:03:18
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| Teddy, what planet are you living on? To say that a highschool coach is removed from fund raising and the booster part of the program is nonsense. I say that those parents that go out of their way to make a contribution of their time and money give their kid a leg up. To be clear, this advantage may only be between kids that are " relatively" the same in talent. If you are a parent of a freshmen/sophomore, i would encourage you to get involved in the program and not rely on talent alone to help your kid secure a spot on the team and to get playing time. It is just the way of the world. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 11:13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
If your going to claim politics the explan what politics are in HS?
Most HS coaches are removed from everything to do with boosters or cool people they just coach. Its the same crowd crying daddy ball that cry politics just a new word for them
Politics examples are:
-The freshman that has a brother on varsity gets playing time over the other freshman.
-The guy/gal who runs the concession stand, their kid has WAY more rope to hang himself than the rest of the players.
-The guy/gal who organized the fundraiser, his kid gets put in any and all games that they tell the coach there MIGHT be a college guy here to look at the kid.
-The people who show up for field maintenance day, usually those kids start in the first game. So does the kid who's family donated the new turf.
I still don't think long term the politics will have an effect for the better programs it is about the win and did you make it to State. But in the beginning, in the non-conference games, in the smaller schools where winning isn't as important, I do believe politics can have an effect. Just not sure that effect matters long term. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 12:21:06
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| sounds like a lot of people got a reality check and want to blame everything but their kid who should not be blamed. Talent is talent no HS coach will lose his job due to playing kids who paid their way onto the field. What next the college didnt offer cause the HS or Travel coach did not promote him enough? geez |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 12:41:53
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Here is my experience with high schools and maybe it is not the normal one.
High school coach cut a kid who's grandfather was funding the indoor hitting facility. Not even sure he knew who was paying for it but i did not matter and the facility did not get built that year needless to say.
If you were not a starter by your JR year no need to keep on team as let a younger try it..no reason to be loyal to older kids that is not their job.
IF you are a pitcher or Catcher then YOU are a P or Catcher. You are not a P and something or a Catcher And something. You have a position and you play it.
If your not a starter you better do well in relief or you went to back of the line and may not see the field again.
Coach did not EVER substitute once region play started His starting 9 was his starting 9 and regardless of score rarely did substitutes get in games. They did pinch hit or pinch run but that was about it.
We never joined paid or did any volunteer work except 1 game in the concession and that was it.My kid was treated fair and played varsity his freshman year. The HS was one of the best in state only losing to the state champ and both were nationally ranked FWIW..never figure how they rank HS teams nationally nor did i care.
I also was not huddled around the game changer at games arguing over who got a hit or error nor did i ever attend a parent meeting.
I was not playing my kid was. My son declined to play in June when asked to and it did not hurt him the next year.
So i would say Money or Politics did not ever come into play with my kid or anyone i saw. I do know people complained as they always do that their kid was in the wrong position or did not get a fair look or something but I will say this.
The job of being the head coach of a HS is the job to be the head coach. I do not want him to come to my job and talk to me and i do not go to his job and talk to him. However i did consider him part of the school system and if something affect my kids health or education i may get involved. I had to send in Dr Note from time to time regarding back to play clearance from injury.
It was a good experience for my son and i have no sour grapes or regrets and i felt the coach did a good job. I put more emphasis on how good a job his teachers did to prepare him for college than i did his HS coach preparing him for college. His future was not going to be in baseball at the professional level and i doubt most people on this board will have kids making a living doing it either. Let kids experience their HS experience as it belongs to them and its part of avoiding safe space syndrome LOL |
Edited by - whits23 on 04/28/2017 15:51:16 |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 14:04:59
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CaCo3Girl,
Those examples are right on. Managing and running the concession stand is a biggie and so is field maintenance. Both of those will get you a lot of brownie points.
I agree with you that this matters less at the larger schools with Top programs but most schools are not these.
Will it get an average kid a starting spot on a really good team-probably not. Will one kid who may not be quite as good as the other have an advantage if mom or dad runs the concession stand or is head of the dugout club- you betcha. |
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Cajunjeep
31 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 16:44:00
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Politics are at every level. Little league, high school, college and pro ball. Don't kid yourself if you believe any different.
At the pro level, do you think the higher draft picks get more reps than the guys drafted lower in the minor leagues? What about the franchise players, they get preference as well. Do you think those guys get a pass on slumps more than the others?
What about in College ball when a new transfer comes in as a Junior? A coach will lean towards that player and it is his job to lose.
That being said, in my opinion, the cream will rise to the top if you are a good player politics have less impact on you. It is the fringe guys that the politics impact most.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 08:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Cajunjeep
Politics are at every level. Little league, high school, college and pro ball. Don't kid yourself if you believe any different.
At the pro level, do you think the higher draft picks get more reps than the guys drafted lower in the minor leagues? What about the franchise players, they get preference as well. Do you think those guys get a pass on slumps more than the others?
What about in College ball when a new transfer comes in as a Junior? A coach will lean towards that player and it is his job to lose.
That being said, in my opinion, the cream will rise to the top if you are a good player politics have less impact on you. It is the fringe guys that the politics impact most.
Very true |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 15:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
High School ball is too often basically random nonsense. Both in the integrity of the coach and in the talent of the program any given year.
If you have the wrong coach who lacks integrity:
1.) You aren't playing in front of his midget son no matter what. Or his nephew. Or his daughters boyfriend, Or his daughters prom dream date.
2.) Senior-itus rules. Good luck Freshmen and Sophs
3.) A good booster check$ can circumvent #2. As well as weekend backyard beer drinking fests during offseason.
High School ball shouldn't be that way. There are some coaches out there that run their program with high integrity. And those coaches almost never have problems to deal with because the program expectations are high, and the competition for playing spots is real. Find that coach! It makes all the difference in your opinion of what High School ball is and what it should look like.
And yes this has been a wonderful year, free of bs, free of team infighting and fist fighting, free of boosterism, free of pampered midgets, free of nonsense.
Its all about the integrity of the Coach and flows downward from there.
"Find that coach! It makes all the difference in your opinion of what High School ball is and what it should look like."
Just curious does your son go to the school he is zoned for or do you do school choice or did you move to go to the school because of the coaches reputation? |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 17:45:05
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<Just curious does your son go to the school he is zoned for or do you do school choice or did you move to go to the school because of the coaches reputation?>
Complicated question. Lets call it pure random luck with a dash of academic prowess on top to even have an option.
Yes it is In-Zone. Yes it also required transfer approval. Yes transfer was motivated to escape a really bad nepotism situation and other items as described. Yes new program was researched to make sure not jumping from frying pan into fire.
Yes academics paved the way. Yes baseball opportunities meant a lot to my son. No he did not want to transfer, preferred to compete the issue away, but was advised by many that would never ever be possible.
There were no promises made. There were no expectations. There was just an acknowledgement that everything was open to pure competition. Newness to program dues did not have to be paid. You would get to compete, and be judged same as any other player competing against you. And all things similar skill wise, current program takes priority, you had to OUTcompete them not just equal them. Equaling was not enough.
Wonderful enjoyable year. Exceeded any expectations or hopes I had. Played at the desired position and start pitched in rotation. Looking forward to 2 more years, and still regret the 'lost' first year to the bs.
Edit: Same nonsense occurred at prior school in 2017 as did in 2016. Maybe worse. Just different names, but an uglier physical tune to it this time. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 20:04:58
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But just how important is HS baseball nowadays?
I wonder because I've been told by multiple sources that our varsity coach is a jerk and a terrible coach to boot. His way or the highway. Etc etc. But I can't imagine my son (currently 7th grade) being willing to permissive transfer to another school, leaving his friends, etc.
Would he be hurt, ultimately, playing for a private HS aged team during regular HS baseball season, if the HS coach really is as bad as everyone is saying he is? I've been told that the travel team is where most kids are "seen." |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 07:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
But just how important is HS baseball nowadays?
I wonder because I've been told by multiple sources that our varsity coach is a jerk and a terrible coach to boot. His way or the highway. Etc etc. But I can't imagine my son (currently 7th grade) being willing to permissive transfer to another school, leaving his friends, etc.
Would he be hurt, ultimately, playing for a private HS aged team during regular HS baseball season, if the HS coach really is as bad as everyone is saying he is? I've been told that the travel team is where most kids are "seen."
It gets complicated.
1. Yes, Travel is where most kids are "seen" but the first question is "What high school do you play for"....interesting conversation if your kid doesn't play for his high school.
2. There are high school coaches who are well known to be total tools and several colleges would understand if your kid didn't play for one of these guys...but you have no idea if your HC is one of those guys for sure.
3. My way or the highway is typical of head coaches (at high school, at college, at MiLB, at MLB), you really have just entered into their world. Adapt or die.
Some coaches really are known to be jerks but some are known to be "old school" and the colleges like those guys because they don't fluff it up. If the kid can't last more than 3 innings on the mound the coach says so. If the kid can't perform in a pressure situation, the coach is honest about that too. My best advice is to contact a senior of the program that is going to play in D1 or D2 college and ask their opinion of the coach.
My son had a coach that was the biggest jerk on the planet I couldn't believe how he talked to kids and to parents, there were multiple near brawls and the guy got kicked out of several games....and yet my kid loved to play for him. Yes, he talked some crazy trash but he knew his baseball and taught my son well, and that was all my kid cared about. Getting a successful players advice on what the coach is really like is FAR better than getting the impressions from the kids who were cut or sat the bench.
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 08:11:21
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| Renegade44 appreciate the honesty. My son was in a similar situation that cost him a year of baseball and a year of wrestling. He decided to make the change and was the best decision he ever made. Coach at previous school was finally let go because of so many complaints and ethics issues, Karma is a B but usually comes back to get those coaches that think they are above the law, rules and ethics. |
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What to expect when HS ends and college starts
