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granddaddy
3 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2017 : 07:33:55
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| What some coaches will do for a trophy.Saw a coach in middle school have a pitcher throw 67 pitched on Tuesday, come back on Thursday, with one days rest and throw 140 more pitches to win a trophy. Whan he starts having arm trouble in high school they'll blame the high school coach and never think about his pitching in middle school. You would think with pitch counts in HS a middle school would know better. |
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3sondad
220 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:09:27
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I know my son's middle school team plays in a league that follows pitch count rules. They are not allowed to throw more than 90 pitches. The days rest are as follows:
1-24 Pitches 0 days
25-44 Pitches 1 day
45-64 Pitches 2 days
65-90 Pitches 3 days
We were playing one team at the beginning of the season and we mentioned to the coach his player just threw his 90th pitch. His response, "oh thanks, we were not keeping track." Really?
My son plays on the MS and HS teams. With him being in 8th, as I understand it, he has to follow the MS rules and not the higher count HS rules even though all of his pitching right now is for the HS teams.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 10:10:53
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Why are they allowed to break High School rules? And where the heck are the parents?!?!?!
The rules at my sons high school are that only Varsity is allowed to take it to the 100 limit, JV is cut off at 80 unless they are really showing no sign of issues and their strike percentage is still high, then they are allowed to go to 90. |
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CoachCross
107 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 11:49:39
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I've already seen an 11u player throw 97 pitches this year ...
quote:
Originally posted by granddaddy
What some coaches will do for a trophy.Saw a coach in middle school have a pitcher throw 67 pitched on Tuesday, come back on Thursday, with one days rest and throw 140 more pitches to win a trophy. Whan he starts having arm trouble in high school they'll blame the high school coach and never think about his pitching in middle school. You would think with pitch counts in HS a middle school would know better.
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 15:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CoachCross
I've already seen an 11u player throw 97 pitches this year ...
quote:
Originally posted by granddaddy
What some coaches will do for a trophy.Saw a coach in middle school have a pitcher throw 67 pitched on Tuesday, come back on Thursday, with one days rest and throw 140 more pitches to win a trophy. Whan he starts having arm trouble in high school they'll blame the high school coach and never think about his pitching in middle school. You would think with pitch counts in HS a middle school would know better.
a 10U threw 115 (in one game) last weekend. No biggie. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 15:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CoachCross
I've already seen an 11u player throw 97 pitches this year ...
quote:
Originally posted by granddaddy
What some coaches will do for a trophy.Saw a coach in middle school have a pitcher throw 67 pitched on Tuesday, come back on Thursday, with one days rest and throw 140 more pitches to win a trophy. Whan he starts having arm trouble in high school they'll blame the high school coach and never think about his pitching in middle school. You would think with pitch counts in HS a middle school would know better.
Parents, is the adrenaline high and 'atta boy back slaps so good you are willing to risk your kids future use of his arm? I wonder if DFCS has a child-sport overuse leading to negligent injury section in their manuals. |
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granddaddy
3 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 17:53:18
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| This boy was 8th grade and threw 207 pitches in 48 hours. that's too much for a MLB player. |
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Ross
60 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2017 : 22:57:41
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| Last year middle school i saw a kid throw 108, one day rest and then throw 118. Coach did not keep pitch counts - at all. |
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brball
615 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2017 : 00:09:15
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| Sad... I hope parents weren't there!!!???? Again, that's just sad! |
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brball
615 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2017 : 00:26:42
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| Sad... I hope parents weren't there!!!???? Again, that's just sad! |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2017 : 08:10:26
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What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2017 : 12:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
Having a son who used to both pitch and catch, I say no way. However, no one ever keeps track of the number of throws a catcher makes. After 10 innings behind the dish, his arm needs a break.
I do find it funny that few coaches even think about the catcher's arm. My son caught a varsity game earlier this season where they went through lots of pitchers in a pretty ugly loss. Checking game changer the next day, he had caught 175 pitches. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2017 : 07:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
My son does both and I have done a lot of research and polls on this myself. The general consensus is (as always) "It depends on the kid".
The biggest problem isn't the arm it's the legs. Pitching is very demanding on the legs and catching for 10 innings could for sure weaken the legs. So if the pitcher walks up with weak legs he is not going to make it past the second inning.
However, if it's the arm you are worried about, my son says the amount of effort it takes to send the ball back to the pitcher isn't the same effort it takes to pitch. While he IS moving his arm it isn't in his pitching motion and throw downs are maybe a 5 time a game thing, if that. He said it isn't the arm motion that is the problem, it's decelerating the 80+mph motion that causes the most impact, and that isn't a factor in catching except for throw downs.
He's pretty adamant that pitching the next day wouldn't be a problem but due to his legs being weak, which would throw off his form, don't ask him to pitch the same day he catches more than a couple of innings.
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2017 : 09:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
I guess my question would be is the kid playing for his JV or is he playing travel and JV, then I put that on the parents for letting him play on two teams at the same time. If JV game he caught 10 Innings then pitched the next day I say he probably threw too many pitches but I don't think throwing balls back to a pitcher is the same as throwing full velocity. If he is making a ton of throws during the game to 1B, 2B and 3B different story. Throwing back to the pitcher probably does more help strengthening the arm than wearing it out, although the time between that and pitching is always an issue. Tough when your best catcher is one of your top pitchers. |
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Falco07
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 10:04:25
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| My son plays 14U Travel. He threw 49 on Sat & 56 on Sun (8 innings). Too much, or within reason? I nor any of the coaches ever notice any drop-off in performance when he goes back-to-back like this, no inflammation - and he claims not to be sore at all. We ice the shoulder & elbow as a precautionary measure. After, days 1 & 2 are light toss (5-10 minutes, up to about 100ft) and some running. I'd appreciate some feedback on what others are doing on the off days. I'm not sure if the programs that encourage throwing almost every day should apply at this age. I like the idea of light throwing days 1 & 2 to keep the arm loose. I also like throwing a bullpen on day 4, but am unsure what is best on a day 3 (LT or complete rest) and day 5 (same). The day before taking the mound is a complete rest day. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 11:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by granddaddy
This boy was 8th grade and threw 207 pitches in 48 hours. that's too much for a MLB player.
You never said was this Middle School or is the kid playing for two teams at the same time? |
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Falco07
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 12:04:47
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[quote]Originally posted by Hurricane
[quote]Originally posted by Ryno23
What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
On the surface, sounds like too many innings as a catcher to be pitching more than 2-3 innings the next day (50 pitch max). Biggest concern would be leg fatigue and compensating for that while pitching. Some kids may be able to handle the load during this age, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 13:17:49
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One simple rule:
If you pitch, don't catch and if you catch, don't pitch.
Choose one or the other, not both. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 13:28:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
My son plays 14U Travel. He threw 49 on Sat & 56 on Sun (8 innings). Too much, or within reason? I nor any of the coaches ever notice any drop-off in performance when he goes back-to-back like this, no inflammation - and he claims not to be sore at all. We ice the shoulder & elbow as a precautionary measure. After, days 1 & 2 are light toss (5-10 minutes, up to about 100ft) and some running. I'd appreciate some feedback on what others are doing on the off days. I'm not sure if the programs that encourage throwing almost every day should apply at this age. I like the idea of light throwing days 1 & 2 to keep the arm loose. I also like throwing a bullpen on day 4, but am unsure what is best on a day 3 (LT or complete rest) and day 5 (same). The day before taking the mound is a complete rest day.
The high schools have adopted rules for both Varsity and "Sub-Varsity". While they aren't perfect for younger kids I think 14 the Sub-Varsity would apply:
Maximum pitches in one game = 90 Pitches
1-24 Pitches = 0 rest days
25-44 Pitches = 1 day of rest
45-64 Pitches = 2 days of rest
65-90 Pitches = 3 days of rest
Note: A pitcher shall not throw more than 90 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Doubleheaders are considered two separate games and single-game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
It would appear the Travel Coach would have broken the pitching rules for high school.
As for what kids do on days 1-7...um...generally practice is only 2-3 days a week and then you have games 2-3 days a week. In my OPINION 14 year olds shouldn't be doing anything with pitching outside of practice, except maybe a lesson once a month. When they aren't pitching they should be practicing their other positions, base running, and pickle drills.
This is not a dig directed at you but I hope people understand that if a coach is having bullpens 1 day a week, and parents are having lessons (or their own bullpens) 2-3 days a week and then the kid is pitching in games 1-2 times a week...that is a LOT of freaking pitching on a youth arm. It may not hurt now but it will take a toll over time. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 14:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
One simple rule:
If you pitch, don't catch and if you catch, don't pitch.
Choose one or the other, not both.
At what age do you expect a kid to choose? |
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Falco07
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 15:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
My son plays 14U Travel. He threw 49 on Sat & 56 on Sun (8 innings). Too much, or within reason? I nor any of the coaches ever notice any drop-off in performance when he goes back-to-back like this, no inflammation - and he claims not to be sore at all. We ice the shoulder & elbow as a precautionary measure. After, days 1 & 2 are light toss (5-10 minutes, up to about 100ft) and some running. I'd appreciate some feedback on what others are doing on the off days. I'm not sure if the programs that encourage throwing almost every day should apply at this age. I like the idea of light throwing days 1 & 2 to keep the arm loose. I also like throwing a bullpen on day 4, but am unsure what is best on a day 3 (LT or complete rest) and day 5 (same). The day before taking the mound is a complete rest day.
The high schools have adopted rules for both Varsity and "Sub-Varsity". While they aren't perfect for younger kids I think 14 the Sub-Varsity would apply:
Maximum pitches in one game = 90 Pitches
1-24 Pitches = 0 rest days
25-44 Pitches = 1 day of rest
45-64 Pitches = 2 days of rest
65-90 Pitches = 3 days of rest
Note: A pitcher shall not throw more than 90 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Doubleheaders are considered two separate games and single-game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
It would appear the Travel Coach would have broken the pitching rules for high school.
As for what kids do on days 1-7...um...generally practice is only 2-3 days a week and then you have games 2-3 days a week. In my OPINION 14 year olds shouldn't be doing anything with pitching outside of practice, except maybe a lesson once a month. When they aren't pitching they should be practicing their other positions, base running, and pickle drills.
This is not a dig directed at you but I hope people understand that if a coach is having bullpens 1 day a week, and parents are having lessons (or their own bullpens) 2-3 days a week and then the kid is pitching in games 1-2 times a week...that is a LOT of freaking pitching on a youth arm. It may not hurt now but it will take a toll over time.
To clarify...Due to the weekly bullpen, no lessons or any other pitching besides the actual game(s). Sometimes he'll pitch a single game on Sunday, sometimes the scenario above. I restrict his throws if we have a Monday field practice (warm-up throws only), and his bullpens are on We or Th. I allow 100% participation in the We or Th field practices (plays 1B), and the coach usually dials back the throwing for everyone on Thursday anyway. Wondering how much parents or coaches stray from the JV guidelines based on factors such as mechanics, maturity or simply how he feels or is pitching at the time. |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2017 : 19:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by bama21
One simple rule:
If you pitch, don't catch and if you catch, don't pitch.
Choose one or the other, not both.
It can be managed to do both. |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2017 : 05:44:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
What is everyone's thoughts on a kid who catches 10 innings of baseball one night, and then turns around and throws 75 pitches the following day for his school's JV team?
I have the Varsity coach's response already, and I will share after some folks chime in with their thoughts.
I guess my question would be is the kid playing for his JV or is he playing travel and JV, then I put that on the parents for letting him play on two teams at the same time. If JV game he caught 10 Innings then pitched the next day I say he probably threw too many pitches but I don't think throwing balls back to a pitcher is the same as throwing full velocity. If he is making a ton of throws during the game to 1B, 2B and 3B different story. Throwing back to the pitcher probably does more help strengthening the arm than wearing it out, although the time between that and pitching is always an issue. Tough when your best catcher is one of your top pitchers.
Nothing was EVER said about travel baseball. This was done all on the same coaches watch. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2017 : 09:01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
My son plays 14U Travel. He threw 49 on Sat & 56 on Sun (8 innings). Too much, or within reason? I nor any of the coaches ever notice any drop-off in performance when he goes back-to-back like this, no inflammation - and he claims not to be sore at all. We ice the shoulder & elbow as a precautionary measure. After, days 1 & 2 are light toss (5-10 minutes, up to about 100ft) and some running. I'd appreciate some feedback on what others are doing on the off days. I'm not sure if the programs that encourage throwing almost every day should apply at this age. I like the idea of light throwing days 1 & 2 to keep the arm loose. I also like throwing a bullpen on day 4, but am unsure what is best on a day 3 (LT or complete rest) and day 5 (same). The day before taking the mound is a complete rest day.
The high schools have adopted rules for both Varsity and "Sub-Varsity". While they aren't perfect for younger kids I think 14 the Sub-Varsity would apply:
Maximum pitches in one game = 90 Pitches
1-24 Pitches = 0 rest days
25-44 Pitches = 1 day of rest
45-64 Pitches = 2 days of rest
65-90 Pitches = 3 days of rest
Note: A pitcher shall not throw more than 90 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Doubleheaders are considered two separate games and single-game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
It would appear the Travel Coach would have broken the pitching rules for high school.
As for what kids do on days 1-7...um...generally practice is only 2-3 days a week and then you have games 2-3 days a week. In my OPINION 14 year olds shouldn't be doing anything with pitching outside of practice, except maybe a lesson once a month. When they aren't pitching they should be practicing their other positions, base running, and pickle drills.
This is not a dig directed at you but I hope people understand that if a coach is having bullpens 1 day a week, and parents are having lessons (or their own bullpens) 2-3 days a week and then the kid is pitching in games 1-2 times a week...that is a LOT of freaking pitching on a youth arm. It may not hurt now but it will take a toll over time.
To clarify...Due to the weekly bullpen, no lessons or any other pitching besides the actual game(s). Sometimes he'll pitch a single game on Sunday, sometimes the scenario above. I restrict his throws if we have a Monday field practice (warm-up throws only), and his bullpens are on We or Th. I allow 100% participation in the We or Th field practices (plays 1B), and the coach usually dials back the throwing for everyone on Thursday anyway. Wondering how much parents or coaches stray from the JV guidelines based on factors such as mechanics, maturity or simply how he feels or is pitching at the time.
My JV son has one 20 pitch bullpen per week and typically pitches 5-6 innings staying under 80 pitches. That is all he pitches. They do not stray from the standards set by GHSA because they would like to remain in good standing and not be fined.
However, the HS practices 5-6 days a week and he also plays OF and C...so he does many drills there as well. I don't "restrict" anything. He practices multiple positions but has received most of his field time as a pitcher. With 20+ kids on the JV team I'm just happy he's seeing the field as a 9th grader. |
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Falco07
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2017 : 10:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Falco07
My son plays 14U Travel. He threw 49 on Sat & 56 on Sun (8 innings). Too much, or within reason? I nor any of the coaches ever notice any drop-off in performance when he goes back-to-back like this, no inflammation - and he claims not to be sore at all. We ice the shoulder & elbow as a precautionary measure. After, days 1 & 2 are light toss (5-10 minutes, up to about 100ft) and some running. I'd appreciate some feedback on what others are doing on the off days. I'm not sure if the programs that encourage throwing almost every day should apply at this age. I like the idea of light throwing days 1 & 2 to keep the arm loose. I also like throwing a bullpen on day 4, but am unsure what is best on a day 3 (LT or complete rest) and day 5 (same). The day before taking the mound is a complete rest day.
The high schools have adopted rules for both Varsity and "Sub-Varsity". While they aren't perfect for younger kids I think 14 the Sub-Varsity would apply:
Maximum pitches in one game = 90 Pitches
1-24 Pitches = 0 rest days
25-44 Pitches = 1 day of rest
45-64 Pitches = 2 days of rest
65-90 Pitches = 3 days of rest
Note: A pitcher shall not throw more than 90 pitches in a single game or cumulative over a two-day period. A pitcher shall not pitch more than two consecutive days regardless of the pitch count, at which time a minimum 1-day rest period is required. Doubleheaders are considered two separate games and single-game pitch count limitations are in effect. All other rest periods are based on the total pitches thrown.
It would appear the Travel Coach would have broken the pitching rules for high school.
As for what kids do on days 1-7...um...generally practice is only 2-3 days a week and then you have games 2-3 days a week. In my OPINION 14 year olds shouldn't be doing anything with pitching outside of practice, except maybe a lesson once a month. When they aren't pitching they should be practicing their other positions, base running, and pickle drills.
This is not a dig directed at you but I hope people understand that if a coach is having bullpens 1 day a week, and parents are having lessons (or their own bullpens) 2-3 days a week and then the kid is pitching in games 1-2 times a week...that is a LOT of freaking pitching on a youth arm. It may not hurt now but it will take a toll over time.
To clarify...Due to the weekly bullpen, no lessons or any other pitching besides the actual game(s). Sometimes he'll pitch a single game on Sunday, sometimes the scenario above. I restrict his throws if we have a Monday field practice (warm-up throws only), and his bullpens are on We or Th. I allow 100% participation in the We or Th field practices (plays 1B), and the coach usually dials back the throwing for everyone on Thursday anyway. Wondering how much parents or coaches stray from the JV guidelines based on factors such as mechanics, maturity or simply how he feels or is pitching at the time.
My JV son has one 20 pitch bullpen per week and typically pitches 5-6 innings staying under 80 pitches. That is all he pitches. They do not stray from the standards set by GHSA because they would like to remain in good standing and not be fined.
However, the HS practices 5-6 days a week and he also plays OF and C...so he does many drills there as well. I don't "restrict" anything. He practices multiple positions but has received most of his field time as a pitcher. With 20+ kids on the JV team I'm just happy he's seeing the field as a 9th grader.
Thanks for the info. I'll be a happy parent as well if my son makes his JV team next year and has opportunities to contribute. I wouldn't normally restrict my kid from anything, but in this case it made sense - he had thrown 93 pitches the day before. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2017 : 12:06:28
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This is from the Pitch Smart Guidelines-Tommy John FAQ:
There are a number of factors that contribute to the likelihood of having Tommy John surgery or another arm injury. The single most important factor is daily, weekly and annual overuse.
Other factors include lack of rest, pitching while fatigued, poor mechanics,playing catcher when not pitching, playing on multiple teams at the same time, pitching multiple days in a row and throwing at maximum effort.
As far as monitoring, there is no way to do that and be 100% sure you are not hurting your son's arm. This is how I've seen the so-called monitoring over the years: How do you feel? You think you can give me another inning or two? I know your getting tired, but just get through this inning.
And of course the kid will try to accommodate. Make the decision as early as possible, as far as catching and pitching, if you care about your son's future health.
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Some Coaches
