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bmoser
1633 Posts |
 Posted - 09/15/2009 : 19:44:12
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"Slashing" is squaring to bunt to entice the infielders to charge in towards the hitter to field the bunt, then drawing back the bat and swinging away full force...fielder beware!
How do you guys feel about Coaches deploying this strategy? Is it age sensitive? Is so, what age should it be allowed?
Do you know which tourney promoters allow it? I heard its okay in USSSA at any age. Is that true? |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 09:05:57
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Not this discussion again.
All of the big National Travel organizations allow the perfectly leagal and very useful at bat.
I for one believe it should be taught starting at age 10, finding players whose hands are fast enough to make it work is a different story.
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Infinity
33 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 09:41:43
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| I think at 90' bases it is fine, anything less it should be illegal in all tournaments, unfortunately most tournaments allow slashing. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 10:00:34
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| I think it is age (or really field size) dependent. I don't like it on fields smaller than 54/80, but at 13U and above, it is a viable piece of the game. At the smaller field sizes, it is just too dangerous because of the players reaction time. |
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 10:19:05
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| our team actually practices the "dive" If someone squares and then pulls back we coach our 1st & 3rd basemen to dive into foul territory. We're playing on a full size filed but still don't want to risk getting anyone hurt |
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Around the Horn
39 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 10:41:18
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| The goal of the at bat is catch the defense out of position and off guard. It is not designed nor employed to intentionally hurt another player. It is allowed and should be. More kids get hurt off of hard slides than "slashing". Maybe we should look at that. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 12:54:31
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I think the biggest negative stir about slashing is brought on by uneducated parents that see it and think it is an attempt to hurt the batter. It is not or at least should not be. I have seen it do a couple of things:
1) Make the batter concentrate on the ball
2) Teaches players that getting a hit comes in many forms, not just hitting a HR or a ball to the fence.
Some times this is a just what a batter needs when in a slump.
I can't say I agree with the "Dive out of the way" approach to defense. I would prefer the "watch the ball off the bat and use that leather thing on your hand" trick. Teaching players to dive out of the way will be a tough think to break later. It teaches that there should be a fear of a hard hit ball. If I were a parent of a kid that was being taught that, I would have to respectfully object. If I was concerned with them getting hit, I would rather thay wear one of the game face masks. |
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a1prog
164 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 13:24:41
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| we started to teach this at age 12. i think we used it twice in 70 games. very hard to properly execute. |
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Slider
26 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 16:21:18
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With the power of todays bats, Slashing has no place in the game at the younger ages (12 and under). There are plenty of ways to win a game without resorting to this gimmick play that puts a crashing infielder in harms way. Teach the game the way that it should be played. Just because it is a "legal" play doesn't mean it should be done.
For you coaches that feel the need to give the sign for your player to Slash ... How would you feel if the opposing teams coaches put this play in during a game, and your hard charging 3rd base Son got nailed in the face with a line drive 20-30 feet from homeplate because he didn't have time to defend himself?
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 16:30:42
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| The only organization that I know that does not allow this is Grand Slam. In Grand Slam you can not do this until 14U. The penalty is an out in the lower age groups. The rumor is someone took a ball in the face. If this is the reason for this rule in their organization I blame the coach of that kid’s team. This was probably one of those teams you've seen in the lower age groups where the corner infielders are almost in the batters box before the ball is even pitched as the batter squares to bunt early. This is poor coaching at its best. I would like to see this legal in all organizations with the focus being on playing defense correctly and not charging the play before the pitcher has even gone into his windup. How about we teach the kids to play the game correctly regardless of age. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 16:50:25
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Could you guys agree to ban it for 8U-12U where the fields are small?
Allow it beginning at 13U? |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 16:51:35
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I don't know of anyone who thinks it's done to intentially hurt fielders. I never did it because of the possibility that it could. Let's face it, if a player is good enough to intentiailly hit a defender with a batted ball, then why not just intentially hit it to the gap.
I believe that at 60/90 you should be able to slash (assuming you are that good in the first place). |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 16:57:23
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North Texas Baseball Alliance - Official Website For NTBA: NTBA Rules
Logged in as: | edit profile | message center logout
Tuesday, April 7
League Rules
I think this means that this Texas org overrides the USSSA rules as they apply to slashing, am i reading this right?
Unless otherwise noted herein, the rules for NTBA will be in accordance with the TX USSSA rules first, USSSA National rules second, then the Official Major League Baseball Rules as published by the Sporting News.
1. No Slashing in the 12 and under. Attempt to fake bunt will result in a called out to the batter under the safety rule. A warning will be issued to the coach. If the slashing rule is called a second time the player and coach will be ejected and an automatic out will result each time the ejected batter comes to the plate. Coach will be suspended for current + one game.
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 20:12:12
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| at younger ages i would not do it if the defense would agree to not charge my batters when they go to bunt. I was told that when i did it that "i was trying to gain an advantage" i responded that" i was only trying to get the advantage back from the defense" you dont charge and i wont swing |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 22:11:48
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Slider,
While I am probably more inclined to agree with most that using it below 12U is not the right call, I don't agree with your argument at all. If you are worried about that, move your kid to the outfield or teach him to get his glove up and watch the ball. Also, there is a greater chance he is going to get one hit back at him, if he is a pitcher, than being hit with a slash as a corner IF'er.
Two things; first the corners don't need to come crashing in on a bunt, but need to start working their way in paying additional attention to the batter, and second a slash does not typically allow the batter to get completely back to a normal stance to swing with his normal motion. Therefore, the chances of the corners getting beaned with a hit should be less if they are playing the corners properly. |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 10:05:58
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12U and under...I see it purely as a safety issue. I've seen young catchers prepare to field the bunt by coming out of their crouch when the batter squares, then get clocked in the back of the head with the slash swing. Its not just the pitcher and infielders who are at risk. I see the catcher to be most at risk.
Its just not worth risking the safety of little kids IMHO. I was shocked to learn that USSSA permits it at all ages. Most orgs do not allow it until 13U. |
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bambino_dad
119 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2009 : 16:02:42
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| Against it - until they reach 90' bases. Today's trampoline bats do not require a full swing to launch bullets. At 20' away or less, it's dangerous. |
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USTBA08
121 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 12:51:54
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
"Slashing" is squaring to bunt to entice the infielders to charge in towards the hitter to field the bunt, then drawing back the bat and swinging away full force...fielder beware!
How do you guys feel about Coaches deploying this strategy? Is it age sensitive? Is so, what age should it be allowed?
Do you know which tourney promoters allow it? I heard its okay in USSSA at any age. Is that true?
Due to the danger to players under the age of 14U, USTBA Does Not allow Slash Bunting in the 8U thru 13U age divisions.
I personally witnessed a 10 year 3rd baseman a few years ago that charged on a slash bunt when the batter pulled back and hit a line drive into his face. The player ended up loosing over 70% vision in his right eye. Slash Bunting puts the 3rd & 1st baseman, catcher & pitcher at un-necessary risk especially with the short base distances in 9U thru 12U.
As a player develops and the base paths increase to 90', players are more prepared, better skilled and can understand and can see a slash bunt devloping. |
Edited by - USTBA08 on 09/18/2009 13:19:55 |
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Infinity
33 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2009 : 21:15:29
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quote:
Due to the danger to players under the age of 14U, USTBA Does Not allow Slash Bunting in the 8U thru 13U age divisions.
I personally witnessed a 10 year 3rd baseman a few years ago that charged on a slash bunt when the batter pulled back and hit a line drive into his face. The player ended up loosing over 70% vision in his right eye. Slash Bunting puts the 3rd & 1st baseman, catcher & pitcher at un-necessary risk especially with the short base distances in 9U thru 12U.
As a player develops and the base paths increase to 90', players are more prepared, better skilled and can understand and can see a slash bunt devloping.
Great job USTBA...... |
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clubhousebaseball1
13 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 13:04:46
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Some of these comments amaze me. There are a lot of rules that are legal that I do not see at the professional level. The travel players are still prone to making mistakes. I really hope we can all agree on that. We are talking about kids under the age of 13 seeing a bunt and trusting they will do it and charging. We prefer to teach our kids to do just the opposit. Hit the ball hard and move the players back. I was talking to one of our coaches the other day and we agreed in the pro's, throwing at a hitters head has become acceptable, so do we start teaching our under 13 year olds to do it? Who better to get away with it then a young boy?
I totally agree with bmoser. This needs to be illegal from 13U down. Coaches, why not just teach the boys to do a drag or quick bunt and let him run it out? To me it sounds like some of these coaches found out small ball does not work for average teams and are trying to do this to win.
I would personally like to not worry a boy is going to get seriously injured by playing baseball due to some sort of ploy to win. If you need a base hit so bad that you would chance hitting a boy, tell me and I will put him on. If you are not good enough to play us with normal baseball, so be it. How many times do we see this in college or the pro's? Not many. I will tell you they do it a lot in softball. Maybe we need to figure out what sport we are playing and focus on that.
I can tell you, in the games I have seen this tactic, the stands got close to emptying when it happened. This is a dangerous ploy and needs to stop. |
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teddy41
421 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 14:31:03
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| In big boy baseball the players don't charge to within a foot of the batter yelling at them either. that seems like softball defense to me |
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clubhousebaseball1
13 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 15:16:15
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| I think our coach is going to ONLY support those associations that have it banned. USTBA, I will relay the message. If enough of us do not support the USSSA and such that do allow it, one of two things will happen. They will get a lot of teams that are putting boys in danger or they will figure out in this economy they need to wise up. Wonder what the decision will be...... They forget we have the choice where to play. Our team for one has agreed our boys are not worth the chance for them to get hurt. If it was a method crucial to them getting to higher level baseball, I can assure our coaches teach it. |
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clg003
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 16:05:07
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| I am amazed at the coaches who refuse to admit how dangerous this can be. I mean even after so many organizations outlaw it. It’s done for one reason and that’s to pull in the defenders to a helpless position. Instead of teaching their kids when to square properly and how to disguise the bunt they cry and whine and take the “I will show you” attitude to little kids. Yeah what better way to teach a kid than to hit him with a line drive smack dab in the middle of the forehead. Brilliant! The teams that do it have certain demeanors and I have even seen a coach get thrown out of a game because when the other coach complained about them doing it he said he was going to keep doing it until he hit one of the kids and the ump tossed him. To me that’s the mentality behind it. It’s that simple. I’m sure every one of the coaches that actually teaches their kids to do it also teaches their kids many more dirty aspects of the game. I’m sure they will deny this as well but we know where it comes from. I mean who has played travel ball for even one season and hasn’t come across one of those coaches. If I was a parent on a team that did that I would pull my kid off of the team immediately because that’s proof that the coach has placed winning above kids. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 10:14:46
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clg003,
I think most everyone has at some point agreed that it is a little unsafe at 11 and under, but we will have to agree to disagree on whether slashing is a useful part of the game or not. I believe it becomes useful to get the corner infielders to lean forward on their toes and give the batter an opportunity to hit a hard grounder in the hole between SS and 3B or 1b and 2b or over the head of the 3b or 1b. IT IS NEVER USED TO HIT THE BALL RIGHT AT A FIELDER. That would defeat the purpose.
The 13U Astros won an extra inning game at the Elite WS with a slash hit over the third baseman's head to score the runner from 3b.
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 10:40:01
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Since there is a Coach in this area who teaches and deploys this dangerous practice at too young an age, I have written every USSSA Board Member (via e-mail) asking them to ban it for boys under 14.
I encourage you to do the same, if you agree.
I have also expressed my concern to our Coach, and he agrees. We played 12 USSSA tourneys in 2009, and will not likely play any in 2010 until this is changed.
We wrote our league asking them to make this change, and they did so within 1 week (after they had a chance to discuss as a group). Kudos to the Lanier Baseball League Board. GGBL already has this rule in place.
Some event promoters who are aligned with USSSA ban slashing by overlaying their "local" rules atop USSSA's. I've seen this done in Texas. Maybe we should also be looking to orgs like JB Athletics and Elite Sporting Events to implement no-slashing rules as well. Perhaps both orgs would care to respond so we all know where they stand?
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 11:30:51
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| I would say 12U and under. I think 13U, where the field is bigger and the players are more experienced, it could begin to be used. |
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Slashing
