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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2009 : 20:14:46
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Someone brought up a subject to me that I was interested in others opinions.
Do you think it is a conflict of interest if paid coaches for a team have players on the team. It does not happen that often, so probably does not come up much but if the coaches have kids on the team, they will have player expenses that are incurred (each player has an expected cost to the team) but if the coaches are paid, do they also pay the player expenses or are these waived as part of the coaches expenses? If the player expenses are waived, and the coaches are actually paid as well, is that double dipping?
Most paid coaches don't have kids on the team, so it is pretty cut and dry that they get paid but don't have player expense being incurred. In this scenario, though, that is not the case.
I was just wondering what everyone thought. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 11:36:46
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Typically the coach would pay for his kids minus the amount that goes to the coach. duh
If each kids pays 1,500 and say 500 goes to the coaches pocket he would only owe 1,000 for his kid. |
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goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 11:46:04
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| Coach that has player on team should not be categorized nor qualify as a "paid" coach IMHO. If this scenario coach is asking for $$$ for his own pockets....well, "here's your sign"! |
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ljames
48 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 14:41:17
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| I couldn't agree more with goyard. A true paid coach is brought in from the OUTSIDE to coach the team. If he has a son on the team, why is he being paid to coach the team? Would he not coach the team his son is playing on without taking money to do so? There is no way I would pay anyone to coach his own son. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 16:48:21
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OH BOY, THIS IS GOING TO STIR IT UP |
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clg003
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 16:50:41
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| Sounds absolutley crazy... He wouldnt coach his own kid's team for free? Really? And some one would actually be on his team? Is this a real situation or did you just make something up to start a thread? |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2009 : 18:27:50
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It was more of a "what would happen if..." Discussion. Several people have brought this up to me since "paid coaches" seem to be the newest rage.
Any representation of the truth was purely accidental. |
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panther
38 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:14:12
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| I think paid coaches are great but would not pay a guy to coach his on kids team though. I do not take my kids to work and if the coach is using youth baseball to pay his bills I would expect him not to take his kids to work also. Some one brought this up so there must be some team doing this. Man sounds like a good deal to get paid for something most people do as a volunteer and get paid to spend more time with your son. clg003 hit it on the head "sounds absolutley crazy". |
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LeftyBat
160 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Old School
It was more of a "what would happen if..." Discussion. Several people have brought this up to me since "paid coaches" seem to be the newest rage.
Any representation of the truth was purely accidental.
I think asking the question of a paid coach and his kid is sticking your nose where it does not belong. A paid coach is for all practical purposes a "contract" entered into by two willing parties, the coach who agrees to offer his service for compensation, and the parent who agrees to accept those services and freely pay an amount they think it is worth. Whether the compensation includes the contribution his child would be required to pay or it does not is really not an issue, as long as each parent knows it going in and decides they are fine with it. If a coach is paid 2000.00 a month for four months and has to pay his kids 2000.00 expenses on of his pocket, then the value of his time comes out to 1500.00 a month, net. If his son is "free" but he gets paid 1500.00 a month, the result is the same. As long as the parents know it and no one held a gun to their head, how and how much he is compensated is not an issue you should lose a lot of sleep over...
Lastly, taking a "moral" stand on whether it is right or wrong for a paid coach to coach his son is a slippery slope. Quite clearly, there will be cases where a child needs to or should play on the best team he can, as that is what every other boy gets to do and what would be fair to him, and it happens to be coached by his dad, who happens to be paid.
Again, parents are free to let their child play wherever they want, and they willingly enter into an agreement to pay it. It's really not for any of us to have an opinion about it unless we have a child playing on that team. Our opinion of it is evidenced when we pull out our checkbook and write the check. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 10:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by goyard
Coach that has player on team should not be categorized nor qualify as a "paid" coach IMHO. If this scenario coach is asking for $$$ for his own pockets....well, "here's your sign"!
What if a paid coach who does this for a living has a kids who plays travel baseball and is good enough to make his team. Case in point if a high school coach's kid is good enough to make his team the high school coach still get's paid. Many of these travel ball coaches do this for a living or do it to suplement their living. By having their own kid on the team instead of being on a different team gives them the time and opportunity to properly coach the team. As parents if you choose to have a paid coach it should be that the coach brings the ability to teach your kids better than a non paid coach. The fact that he has a kid on the team or not shouldn't matter. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 13:49:03
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ECBLefty and Shutout,
You both make very important points. The first being that as long as the families playing on the team agree to it, that is all that matters. Second, there are situations, such as HS Coaches where this happens rather frequently. (I am sure this has even happened in the upper levels at EC).
This all goes back to many other discussions related to disclosure of budgets and parents knowing where their money is going. As long as they are aware, no one should complain.
I don't agree that having a kid on a team makes a coach not qualified to be paid if he is qualified without the son being on the team. If you would hire him without the kid on the team, he should be worth hiring with him on the team as long as everyone is aware of the budget.
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2009 : 16:32:06
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| My opinion is if the kid is good then who cares. If the kid is AA playing on a major team because daddy is the paid coach and plays alot, then NO. I dont agree with that. But if the kid hits bombs and throws 90 then why shouldnt he be allowed to play for his dad. |
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bambino_dad
119 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 14:52:29
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Sticking our noses where it doesn't belong? Not sure I understand you ECB Lefty. This is a Discussion Forum.
quote:
Again, parents are free to let their child play wherever they want, and they willingly enter into an agreement to pay it. It's really not for any of us to have an opinion about it unless we have a child playing on that team. Our opinion of it is evidenced when we pull out our checkbook and write the check.
Point taken ECB Lefty. 'Cause I'm not sure whether or not this is a real or imagined situation, but please understand one thing: situations like this actually do come up from time to time and since this is a forum for opiniated discussions, I think it's a bit over the top to suggest no one should have an opinion unless they have a child involved or write a check. It's downright laughable in my book. Sure, checkbooks talk, but people on the outside looking in will someday have things reversed. Maybe one of the posters has actually experienced this. I'd want to know his or her opinion as I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing mine because this particular topic centers squarely on questions of possible conflict of interest and compensation. I want to know how things are done among the coaches I am paying.
Besides, I've seen this question come up in non-sports related circumstances. |
Edited by - bambino_dad on 09/10/2009 18:10:58 |
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Learnpatience
69 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 19:38:06
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| Here is my opinion SINCE YOU ASKED FOR IT. Why would parents willingly sign up for paying a coach when the coach has a son on the team? Who cares if the son throws 90 and hits bombs? If the person actually liked what he was doing enough to be a coach, then why ask for $$? I guess because there are a few people out there who would actually pay in the bucks. But hey, like P.T. Barnum said, "there is a sucker born every minute" |
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mammabee
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 22:39:33
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well my young ballplayer always played with a dads coaches team and its easyto say it worked out great
and whether a coach is paid or not paid doesnt mean too much to us cause weve seen good non pay dads and really poor paid coach dads.
only issue ever with us is does the son play on the team only cause the Dad is his coach and if YES then your team is quickly headed for issues on the field and in the stannds ! |
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LeftyBat
160 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2009 : 23:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by bambino_dad
Sticking our noses where it doesn't belong? Not sure I understand you ECB Lefty. This is a Discussion Forum.
quote:
Again, parents are free to let their child play wherever they want, and they willingly enter into an agreement to pay it. It's really not for any of us to have an opinion about it unless we have a child playing on that team. Our opinion of it is evidenced when we pull out our checkbook and write the check.
Point taken ECB Lefty. 'Cause I'm not sure whether or not this is a real or imagined situation, but please understand one thing: situations like this actually do come up from time to time and since this is a forum for opiniated discussions, I think it's a bit over the top to suggest no one should have an opinion unless they have a child involved or write a check. It's downright laughable in my book. Sure, checkbooks talk, but people on the outside looking in will someday have things reversed. Maybe one of the posters has actually experienced this. I'd want to know his or her opinion as I'm sure they'd be interested in hearing mine because this particular topic centers squarely on questions of possible conflict of interest and compensation. I want to know how things are done among the coaches I am paying.
Besides, I've seen this question come up in non-sports related circumstances.
Good point, you are right, my apologies, I was out of line with that statement. Clearly everyone has a right to an opinion and I guess it is a worthy subject to discuss as parents can gain insight as to whether this type of arrangement is good, bad, or will work for them. I guess my thoughts are that perhaps its best to value the opinion of parents who have been through it more than people who just have an opinion. Maybe someone will post here how has been there done that and provide some good insight...
My son is on a team with this arrangement now. I'm not so sure there is a conflict of interest unless there is evidence of "daddy ball". That conflict of interest exsists even when there is no salary involved. Can't really see where the fact that a coach is paid has much to do with the conflict of interest being discussed here. Maybe you could clarify where you think bringing money into player being coached by his father elevates the conflict of interest issue? (perhaps because when a person is paid he is a "professional" and therefore is held to a higher standard?) I would agree this is a good point, but again a "professional" should be able to manage through the "daddy ball" issue. In fact, the fact he is paid may make it easier to coach without any level of favoratism. I also think the issue is minimized when there is more than one paid coach on a team.
I am about to experience what you refer to. One of my sons paid coaches is a parent. He's not the head coach so that will minimize the issue somewhat, but its still there in the background. I had the luxury of watching him coach my sons team last year with his son on it and really believe that if anything, he was tougher on his son than another coach would have been. I'm not at all concerned about a conflict of interest because I am one of the few on my team who has actually been there done that with this coach having a son on the team. The fact that he is paid now does not change how I felt about it then or how I feel about it now.
I think he's worth every penny (back to that contract between two people thing...) I think it would have been an unfortunate turn of events if his son was prevented from playing on his fathers team because his father was offered a coaching role with a salary attached. The son is clearly good enough and the dad had his head and his heart in the right place last year so I go in with eyes open and hope that I think the investment in my sons development I have committed to turns out to be a good decision.
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Edited by - LeftyBat on 09/11/2009 08:38:50 |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 08:51:01
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What we sometimes forget is there are a lot of people that are not knowledgeable about the travelball in's and out's that rely on this messageboard to help them get as much information as they can on a subject. They know what their opinion is, but don't know if it's a valid one to have. Is it something they should be upset about and challenge, or is it a normal event in Travelball.
The "sticking your nose where it does not belong." statement is laughable because it immediately makes everyone think something is going on that the user does not want to be brought out in public. If a specific team was mentioned, then the decision on how it is handled will be decided by the parents on that team, but people will still voice opinions about whether they believe it is right or not.
There are examples, above where this situation might be legitimate, such as a HS coach who's son is now in HS, or a long-time established paid coach that just happens to have his son come through his age group. However, I would have a hard time, as a coach, being paid with my son on the team unless I fell into one of the two categories. |
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2009 : 15:04:43
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| Try this one on....Aren't all coaches paid? If I am a dad coaching a travel team, don't I some how figure out a way to have my season paid for? Does the individual players fees include paying for his son's season so he doesn't have any out of pocket? The difference between a paid coach versus a dad coach, hopefully is his knowledge, experience and ability to coach these fine boys to get better, so you pay him something directly. A dad coach may have the team absorb his son's fees to be the coach. Just a thought. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 09:14:55
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| I can honestly say I have NEVER coached on a team where the dad coaches fees were absorbed in the budget. Everything was divided by the full number of kids including the dad coaches kids. Maybe I was just naieve to think of the option as viable. I could see at 12U, taking profit from a tournament and reimbursing the coaches for their (not their kids) portion of the Cooperstown entry (since CDP makes the coaches pay the same amt as the kids, which is a double cost to those families) but outside of that, I have never expected compensation for coaching a team with my own kid on it. Maybe the economic situation has caused us to look at alternate ways to cut back or generate revenue, or maybe it is dad coaches looking and seeing non-dads getting paid and feel they have better knowledge of the game and should be compensated as well. Who knows. |
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Marinersfan
57 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 14:56:26
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ECB Lefty, I appreciate the insight you provide given that your son is on such a team. May I ask, are all of the coaches on the team paid (head and assistants) or just the one that you discuss? If only one, has that caused any problems for other assistants believing they should be paid too, or are they ok with the arrangement?
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bambino_dad
119 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 19:00:15
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Well, the thread can (and did) go two ways: compensation in terms of a paid coach's expenses since he, too, is a parent sharing in the team expenses. (Which is how it started) Or, it could have gone in the direction of what-am-I-getting-for-my-money from a paid daddy coach?
I chose the latter because a) the expense of travel ball demands that I know what I'm getting for my money, and b) I happen to believe that paid coaches are held to a higher standard than a volunteer coaches on a sports club because of the nature of what I believe I should be paying for. And what do I expect to pay for? Value.
And what do I value? While I haven't really thought that deeply about it - off the top of my head, just as I would expect a paid fireman to bring more to the table than a volunteer fireman, I would think a paid coach is more than value added, he should bring a seasoned expertise to the job. I would expect Tony LaRussa, Joe Girardi, or even Dave Perno to be glorified versions of my coach. In short, my paid coach has gotta know his stuff and be professional in his approach.
Secondly, I would expect my paid coach to reflect well on the organization and make decisions about player personnel that are as objective as humanly possible since my kid will be affected by those decisions.
You want me to break it down? Going in, I'd want to believe my volunteer coach would treat player decisions with %100-%90 objectivity. Having experienced volunteer coaches, I now know better. Before I played an inning of college ball, I'd have wanted to believe paid coaches treat player personnel decisions with %100-%95 objectivity. Having played college ball, now I certainly know better than that, too.
Numerous tales are told of daddy ball - mostly not good - and I've experienced quite a few of them. Come to think of it - I was a daddy coach once - and it turned out badly as I recall (LOL). I'd now say it's impossible for daddy coaches to be %100 objective - and at best we can expect no more than %75 objectivity, especially if the coach's kid is a good ballplayer. (Press & Pete Maravich come to mind)
In this thread I'd hoped to hear some opinions from those who have experienced something I have not. Perhaps someone has experienced a paid daddy coach whose professionalism exceeds any familial bias than what I have observed in different cases.
I thought this thread would either confirm my experiences or otherwise enlighten me.  |
Edited by - bambino_dad on 09/12/2009 21:37:49 |
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Paid coaches with kids on the team
