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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/12/2016 : 00:09:02
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Is is time to start playing tournaments by grade instead of age?
I kind of like this idea, just use grad year instead of age. I know that AAU basketball uses grade.
This will shake up travel ball. Of course playing up a grad year would be allowed.
Is it time to change the format?
Thoughts? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 08:42:08
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| Just curious..why isn't it done that way to start with? You don't play with the 8th grade as freshman. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 08:53:54
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| I think most kids do that by age 14. If you expect a college to look at you, you better be playing with your grade. (or above) |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 09:55:59
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I like the idea but you would still have some older players because of redshirting. Maybe all states should go to the same grade cutoff date but I am not sure if that would help.
The problem is that there will always be younger and older kids in a class and some parents will feel that their kid is disadvantaged because he's younger. |
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Ross
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 13:05:51
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| Yes |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 17:27:04
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Why would you play by grade in tourneys especially at anything under 15? Before that age, there is so much variability in development that a year can make a big difference in size, coordination, strength, and skill (I know it still exist until maturity, but the growth curves are much flatter after that age). How is proof of eligibility handled in basketball? Are the kids required to bring a report card to show eligibility? A birth certificate is prima facie evidence of age. We play with some kids who's dad has held back everyone of them so they would excel on the field and it was suggested that I do so with my son even though he's a bigger, athletic kid. I just tell my son to think of it as those kids needing a crutch to be competitive.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 20:00:45
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To solve what problem? Is there any issue that runs across all of youth travel ball that is caused by or would be solved by playing by grade?
It's an individual decision that families make for themselves for their player. All kids develop at different rates and ages.
IMHO, no need to reinvent the wheel. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 22:07:34
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Let me be clear - I have no issue with whatever decision families make. I used the word 'problem' to reference not satisfying everyone, no matter the date.
I am on record saying that I think that holding a kid back in certain instances makes perfect sense. Every parent will do what they think is best for their kid as they should.
The one thing I don't get is what the current cutoff date is based off of. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2016 : 23:25:44
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shuler,
My comment about "problem" wasn't in response to you at all. It was a question back to the OP. I get that he's trying to generate a discussion. He's asking to debate changing something, so I'm asking back, why? I don't see any problem with parents putting their child on a team based on their age, even if he's playing with kids a grade below him. If it's what fits them best, what's the problem.
If there is some rampant problem that is negatively impacting youth baseball as a whole because of this, then define the problem that needs to be solved. I don't know of any problem, so I don't see where creating a more restrictive environment is good for anyone. I'm all for fixing things that need to be fixed. I don't see anything broken with families having choices available to them. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 06/13/2016 09:19:37 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 08:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Is is time to start playing tournaments by grade instead of age?
I kind of like this idea, just use grad year instead of age. I know that AAU basketball uses grade.
This will shake up travel ball. Of course playing up a grad year would be allowed.
Is it time to change the format?
Thoughts?
It's a personal preference that each family must decide on. My son is a rising 9th grader so I asked him to play 14u this year even though he is 13u eligible. It was my OPINION he needed to be on the 60x90 field to have a hope of making his JV high school team.
If I had to do it all over again I would make the same choice, the experience of playing with kids a year plus older than him was good for him, he managed to become a pretty valuable player, however, he can be on a more competitive team if he plays 14u again next year. I have been told that a Major 14u team will see better action/games/pitching than a 15u AAA team...so I guess we will see how tryouts go.
He is one of, if not, THE youngest kids going into 9th grade...I really like that he has the option to play with the 8th graders on a higher level team than if he was stuck playing with kids that are 1+ year older than him. Oddly enough his 14u team has 5 rising 10th graders. |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 08:41:57
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| Little League International is moving the cutoff date from May to August which will align more with school cutoffs so you will somewhat see that organization be more by "grade" in coming years. I think after 2018 that it will be a hard date. The question will be whether or not all other organizations (rec and travel) will follow suit. |
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mar1dxt
30 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 11:35:12
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| This has become very prevalent at the high school travel level. My son plays 15U on team where all the players are 2019 graduates. The major level teams we play are loaded with 2018 graduates. at the recent PG 16U tournament, many of the better 16U teams included kids who will be seniors this year and graduate in 2017. As long as it is permitted people will keep doing it to get the W. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 11:49:47
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| Prior to puberty, if your child is small this is a great policy, otherwise he would be forever struggling to keep up with his "grade." However those with the bigger boys may want to play up as they approach high school, in order to not have to play catch up, and if they are a competitive player isn't it best to challenge them rather than having them be the big stud on a lesser team? The question is at what age is it most important to make the move? |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 12:14:30
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| What if a kid is held back 2 years because of grades, should he be allowed to play against kids almost 2 years younger than him? |
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Pop Fisher
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 12:39:50
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| Held back 2 years? Then tell him to lose the bat and pick up a hockey stick as his scholarship future is not in baseball! Kidding. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 12:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
What if a kid is held back 2 years because of grades, should he be allowed to play against kids almost 2 years younger than him?
This is where it gets tricky. We experienced it in football this year and in some cases, safety becomes an issue. the difference between 15 & 13 can be even greater than two years from a physical maturity standpoint.
IMO, it's not necessarily smaller kids who struggle on the bigger fields and even prior to puberty. I think we all know at least one kid (probably several) who is dynamite in a small package. From what I've seen, it's the kids who aren't physically strong yet who struggle to compete. Smaller athletic kids with some strength can compete with the bigs all day. |
Edited by - hshuler on 06/13/2016 13:34:36 |
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Kory
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 13:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
What if a kid is held back 2 years because of grades, should he be allowed to play against kids almost 2 years younger than him?
Welcome to the wonderful world of grade level football. We play against kids that are literally two years older than ours. Not such a bad thing at 16, but at 11, 12, 13 to have kids that are basically young men on the opposite side of the ball, there is a definite competitive advantage. There is no way to get around it. So, if we are proposing that baseball do the same, just be prepared for a 14 y/o to be throwing to a 12 y/o and the subsequent threads in this forum about how 'unfair' it is. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 14:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Prior to puberty, if your child is small this is a great policy, otherwise he would be forever struggling to keep up with his "grade." However those with the bigger boys may want to play up as they approach high school, in order to not have to play catch up, and if they are a competitive player isn't it best to challenge them rather than having them be the big stud on a lesser team? The question is at what age is it most important to make the move?
You assume it's a lesser team. Let me break this down for you, I hate to keep using 643 as an example because my kid is not a part of that program but they have the most structured system I know of.
If we can assume the 643 A team is Cougars, the B team is Jaguars, and the C team is Tigers.
In any given year who sees the best competition the 14u Cougars or the 15u Tigers? Do the 15u Tigers go up against the 15u Astros/Georgia Jackets/Home Plate??? If they do, they do it rarely, whereas the 14u cougars play those super good teams all the time...so would it really be a lesser team if a 9th grader played 14u majors? Of course it would be great if the 9th grader could play 15u Majors but this world isn't perfect. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 14:38:21
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| Kory. You make a very good point when it comes to playing by grade. Some may hold their kids back just to be at physical advantage of normal grade kids. Look at it this way. Take on the normal grade first, then look at the players age. No need to have a 13 year old 4th grader playing with 10 year olds. The kid may be shaving at 13. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 17:02:02
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| Would a kid that is two years held back even be able to play sports his senior year. Just wondering ghsa has to have an age cut off I would think. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 18:01:31
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| Maybe changing the cutoff date to match the school date would be a better option. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 18:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
What if a kid is held back 2 years because of grades, should he be allowed to play against kids almost 2 years younger than him?
Parents should invest in his education first. He should play up to the grade he would have been if not for being held back. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 22:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by BREAMKING
Would a kid that is two years held back even be able to play sports his senior year. Just wondering ghsa has to have an age cut off I would think.
Senior year kid held back for 2 years is 20 to 21 years of age. Why would any parent do that is beyond me. Just hurts the kid. I think GHSA does have a age cut off.
Here you go:
1.30 - AGE
To be eligible to participate in interscholastic activities, a student must not have reached his 19th birthday prior to May 1st, preceding his year of participation.
BY-LAW 1.30 - AGE
SITUATION: A student becomes 19 years of age on April 30, prior to his fourth year in high school. May the student participate in the fourth year?
INTERPRETATION: No. May 1 is the cut-off date.
So a kid that is held 2 years back can still play travel baseball, but should have to play up to their peer grade. If the format was to change by grade. His senior year in high school is gone. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2016 : 23:04:05
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| I'm with you caco3 with regard to 14 and 15 year olds..I was talking about the pre puberty crowd, i.e. the big huge 13 yr. old playing on a mainly 12U team. Wouldn't it make sense for him to move ahead up to his grade to get ready for high school? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 07:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
I'm with you caco3 with regard to 14 and 15 year olds..I was talking about the pre puberty crowd, i.e. the big huge 13 yr. old playing on a mainly 12U team. Wouldn't it make sense for him to move ahead up to his grade to get ready for high school?
It would make sense....however, I let my big huge 12u seventh grader play on a 12u team with a lot of 6th graders for the Cooperstown experience, and it was a freaking blast! He also wasn't even close to the biggest kid in C-town...our third base coach asked another teams third basemen if his wife and kids were enjoying the games....the kid DID have a 5 o'clock shadow and was about 6'2!
Punisher, to your point about age cutoffs being by school year...WHOSE school year? We go back 8/1, some schools don't go back until mid September, and schools really far up north play HS baseball during June and July...kind of hard to assign a universal cutoff date that would work with every grade across the US. |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2016 : 08:37:23
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| Playing up is not the issue here. The issue is if you go to a grade-play format, then kids that have been held back (or failed) have competitive advantage. My son plays with a kid who was held back in kindergarten (or 1st, don't remember) bc he had a late birthday for the school class he began with but an early birthday in an age-based classification. He simply wasn't mature enough to hang with the other kids in his grade at an early age. I don't have a problem with that scenario because it was done for academic reasons. His age advantage on the field is small but it is noticeable. What I have a problem with is kids that held back who are academically successful and not struggling being held back. When it's every kid in the family having this done and the kids are academically gifted, the reason is obvious. |
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Time to play by grade not age???
