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bfriendly
376 Posts |
 Posted - 11/17/2015 : 22:51:46
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| So the batter holds his hand up to call time out, in a Jeter type position. This was done because the pitcher held the Set position for a long time but did not come forward to deliver. The ump never gave the batter time out. The pitcher stepped forward and then just stopped. It was an obvious balk, but the umpire ruled that "the batter caused the pitcher to balk". Is this the correct ruling? |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2015 : 12:01:01
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| This happened to my son at 11U. He was about to pitch, the batter held up his hand and stepped out of the box. My son stopped mid-motion. He was called for a balk. Curious to hear the answer........ |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2015 : 14:00:23
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This happened on my sons team last year. It was interesting to see a balk called on a lefty! The umpire did charge the pitcher with the balk and the pitcher politely asked what he should have done when he realized the batter wasn't in the box.
The umpire said "You follow through with your pitching motion, softly throw it on the ground towards the catcher. That way there is no balk on YOUR part and the catcher can field the ball and make any throws that are necessary." he added in a side bar to the pitcher, who told me about it later, at 12u if you did as I instructed I likely would have called your rolled pitch a strike, the batter should be in the box when I think it's time to pitch, not just when he thinks its time to bat!
I appreciate umps like that, youth baseball is supposed to be about learning! |
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justinm1225
207 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2015 : 18:05:10
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I found this under (NFHS)
Rule 6-2 Art 4:d infractions by pitcher
1. If the pitcher with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request "time", it shall not be a balk.
In (a) and (c) there is no penalty on either the batter or pitcher. The umpire shall call time and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of rule 7-3-1. ( A batter shall not: Art 1 Delay the game by failing to take his position promptly in the batters box within 20 seconds. The batter must keep at least one foot in the batters box throughout the time of the at bat)
In (a), (b), and (c), if the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live, thus 2 strikes are called on the batter in (b).
Rule 3-3 1o- A coach, player or substitute shall not call "time" or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk.
During a 9u USSSA tourney, I've seen this happen with a runner on 3rd and the coach had a voice signal for the batter to back out of the box as soon as the pitcher started his motion. The umpire called time as soon as he realized the pitcher completely stopped his motion and was not going to throw the ball. He sent the runner back to 3rd and warned the coach about doing that. Also told the pitcher to throw the ball if it happens again with the the result being a strike. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2015 : 03:26:20
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Thanks Justin! while I disagree with the rule, at least now I can say "Thats the rule" Its nice to be able to say the Ump Got it Right! He was pretty sure of himself as he should have been.............Good Call and I aint too old to learn something new |
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HeyBlue
92 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2015 : 10:53:43
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It should not be a balk. The batter can not cause the balk. If the pitch is thrown, it is a strike.
You are not going to find too many of us that will call 2 strikes on the one pitch as noted in the rule. If it is called, more than likely an ejection will soon follow. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2015 : 12:34:19
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| I agree with HeyBlue that if you call two strikes an ejection is on the way. I would love to run the coach chirping from the coaches box trying to cause a balk. What a punk. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2015 : 12:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by HeyBlue
You are not going to find too many of us that will call 2 strikes on the one pitch as noted in the rule. If it is called, more than likely an ejection will soon follow.
So this is really interesting. Since it is a printed rule, it is not a judgement call. To that point, why would you EVER consider not calling the rule?
I get that it would be beyond obscure to have two strikes called on a single pitch, but it's not up for interpretation to the umpire to arbitrarily choose not to enforce a clearly defined rule.
As an umpire, why would you simply ignore a rule? Is that fair to the defensive team in this case? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2015 : 08:45:11
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| Keep in mind folks, the rule states was HIGH SCHOOL rules, and the discussion is about 12u. |
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tellit
97 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2015 : 11:03:51
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| If the player was stepping out to try and cause a balk, sure hammer down and get two strikes. How you interpret the rule book is what separates a lot of umpires. You could follow the rule book word for word and then spend half the game trying to keep the coaches in the coaches box. Most all travel baseball follows National Federation High School Rules, with some exceptions. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2015 : 13:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by tellit
If the player was stepping out to try and cause a balk, sure hammer down and get two strikes. How you interpret the rule book is what separates a lot of umpires. You could follow the rule book word for word and then spend half the game trying to keep the coaches in the coaches box. Most all travel baseball follows National Federation High School Rules, with some exceptions.
USSSA and TC do not come close to NFHS rules. Not on bats, catchers masks, pitching rules, or other rules that HS people think are standard. |
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tellit
97 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2015 : 17:00:55
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From the Triple Crown website.
Event Rules
Unless noted prior to the event, National Federation High School Rules will be used with the following notations. Triple Crown reserves the right to enforce particular invitational tournament rules. Franchisees may offer rule variations. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2015 : 04:11:37
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quote:
Originally posted by HeyBlue
It should not be a balk. The batter can not cause the balk. If the pitch is thrown, it is a strike.
You are not going to find too many of us that will call 2 strikes on the one pitch as noted in the rule. If it is called, more than likely an ejection will soon follow.
I still think a pitcher(at a level where balks are called at all) Must be disciplined enough to not balk. I just dont see how a "Distraction" like the batter holding up his hand etc can "Cause" the actions of another player(the pitcher).
I realize the ruling in my particular play in mind was ruled correctly. The batter(by holding his hand up asking for time) caused the balk.
So what about this play.........Runner on third takes off for home when pitcher is just about to get into the set position, making it a clear distraction trying to get the pitcher to balk. The Pitcher Balks clearly. Is it still a balk or did the runner on third Cause it? |
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tellit
97 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 09:41:40
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| Runner on third being aggressive is good baseball, batter stepping out on a pitcher as he comes to the plate is bad baseball that can result in an injury to the pitcher. Coaches should stress to the pitcher to complete the pitch when the batter steps out to save their shoulder at a minimum. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 11:31:11
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No, base runner cannot cause a balk.
Also, a note on your original situation, a poster mentioned that the two strikes should be called if it was obvious that the batter was stepping out with the intent to cause a balk. The two strike penalty has nothing to do with the batter trying to cause a balk or anything else. The rule exists as a pace of play and the penalty is for delaying play, not attempting to cause a balk. Big difference in the interpretation (of which there really isn't any as it's simply enforcing a clearly defined rule), but I raise it as your current question suggests that the offense is being penalized for attempting to cause a balk.
There is nothing in the rules that penalize the offensive team for attempting to, or causing a balk. The pitcher either balks or doesn't on his own accord. Anything the offense has done that you may feel led to the balk doesn't excuse the rule and isn't grounds not to enforce the penalty. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 13:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
No, base runner cannot cause a balk.
Also, a note on your original situation, a poster mentioned that the two strikes should be called if it was obvious that the batter was stepping out with the intent to cause a balk. The two strike penalty has nothing to do with the batter trying to cause a balk or anything else. The rule exists as a pace of play and the penalty is for delaying play, not attempting to cause a balk. Big difference in the interpretation (of which there really isn't any as it's simply enforcing a clearly defined rule), but I raise it as your current question suggests that the offense is being penalized for attempting to cause a balk.
There is nothing in the rules that penalize the offensive team for attempting to, or causing a balk. The pitcher either balks or doesn't on his own accord. Anything the offense has done that you may feel led to the balk doesn't excuse the rule and isn't grounds not to enforce the penalty.
in_the_know. So, you said a base runner cannot cause a balk....what about a batter? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 14:12:24
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I don't think anyone - other than the pitcher himself - can "cause" a balk. As stated from the rules, the penalty for a batter doing something funky, like stepping out of the box while the ball is in play, is cause for penalty because it is a delaying of the game. No matter what a runner does, the pitcher must adhere to the same rules for balks as any other time.
My suggestion is to coach your pitchers to pitch the ball no matter what the batter does. Unless the umpire calls for time, it is a live ball. The batter does not automatically get time out just because he puts his hand up. The umpire has to give him time. Just go ahead and pitch. If the batter did something wrong, you'll get yourself a strike called regardless of where the pitch went. If a runner does something funky, step off the back of the mound. The pitcher then becomes a fielder and can do whatever he wants.
Hope that makes sense. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2015 : 15:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
No, base runner cannot cause a balk.
Also, a note on your original situation, a poster mentioned that the two strikes should be called if it was obvious that the batter was stepping out with the intent to cause a balk. The two strike penalty has nothing to do with the batter trying to cause a balk or anything else. The rule exists as a pace of play and the penalty is for delaying play, not attempting to cause a balk. Big difference in the interpretation (of which there really isn't any as it's simply enforcing a clearly defined rule), but I raise it as your current question suggests that the offense is being penalized for attempting to cause a balk.
There is nothing in the rules that penalize the offensive team for attempting to, or causing a balk. The pitcher either balks or doesn't on his own accord. Anything the offense has done that you may feel led to the balk doesn't excuse the rule and isn't grounds not to enforce the penalty.
in_the_know. So, you said a base runner cannot cause a balk....what about a batter?
No, that's what the entire topic has been until his latest question about a base runner.
If a batter steps out of the box during the pitch, and the pitch is thrown, then there should be two strikes called on the batter (per the rules).
If the batter steps out, without time being called, and the pitchers tops his delivery, it is not a balk.
JustinM1225 posted the rule in a reply earlier. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 11/30/2015 16:22:28 |
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HeyBlue
92 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2015 : 08:55:13
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| Note that the rule states both feet have to be out of the box for the two strike pitch. I am trained to watch the ball as my primary responsibility. Was one foot out or two? Do you want me to be watching the pitch or the feet of the batter to pick up two strikes on a rare occasion? The plate umpire is watching for a balk, then the pitch. Watching to see if two feet were out at the time is way down the list on my priority progression. With baseball, my head is supposed to remain still. |
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Can the batter cause a balk in 12u?
