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PutMeInCoach
9 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2009 : 14:56:36
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| Our team has played a certain Woodstock area team twice this year. They have won both games so maybe I'm just a little disgruntled but it seems very Bush-League and unsportsmanlike to have someone in the spectator area stealing signs for pitches and relaying them to the batters. They had a fan or assistant coach in the stands that would call the players name when a pitch was anything other than a fastball as signaled by our coach. Both times our coach has caught on to it and made an adjustment. IMO if you must steal signs, and I know it happens, at least let it be the players/coaches that are inside the fence. Little Johnny would be better served learning to read the ball from the pitchers hand and recognizing the pitch himself. Someday, if he keeps playing, he'll need to be able to figure some things out for himself. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 16:18:13
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| What age are you referring to? Its fair game when you get into the teens in my opinion. I teach my kids from an early age about making sure we dont give anything away. It happens more than you know. If it wasnt prevelent then we would say hey we are throwing a fast ball now. Or hey, we are stealing now. Its been part of the game forever. Now 6 thru 12 maybe thats a little crazy. |
Edited by - loveforthegame25 on 06/01/2009 20:08:30 |
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titansx11
106 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 17:06:09
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| TB, at what age does the team whose signals are being stolen give a fastball to the rib cage of the opposing team? Or let the coach know if it continues that would be a possiblity. If a team wants to play that way, shouldn't the opposing team be able to handle their business. Then they culd steal that signal and let the batter know, LOOK OUT.....FASTBALL HIGH AND TIGHT........ |
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tn3sport
28 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 17:51:05
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Get your coach and catchers quarterback wristbands.
Its a very simple system and its pick-proof. My kid's 9U Upward football program used them and every kid understood it. More and more high schools are using these in baseball.
Watch the upcoming college World Series and you'll notice how popular these have become at the collegiate level.
It will put an end to your signal stealing problem... |
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jr63
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 19:12:51
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| Interesting perspective and probably will be debated up and down all sides in this thread. Years back my son's coach had a similar frustration, not sure if it was fans or coaches, but the end result was the same. He laughed about it and all he did was coach the catcher(s) to hide the signals appropriately and then developed a system that other coaches (or fans) would really have to study to break. All too often the coach is the one guilty of giving signals away. Bottom line, the older the players get the more it happens, all the way to the bigs, it's part of the game. As far as knowing what's coming, most hitters, pro's included, want to know what might be headed their way, bottom line they still have to hit it. |
Edited by - jr63 on 06/01/2009 20:08:30 |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 22:38:35
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I think the underlying issue that is being presented is "Someone in the stands" doing the stealing. I agree with PutMeinCoach that while this is common all the way up through the MLB, it needs to be done inside the fence, not outside. I think anyone outside the fence that starts stealing signs, or worse, giving the location of where the catcher is sitting up, should have a big bucket of water poured over their heads. It is truly bush league.
As for the arm bands, they are good but never assume they are steal proof. If someone is taking notes on what you call, and what is thrown, they can soon come up with your methodology. It is a lot more difficult, though. |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 07:37:38
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In my opinion, stealing signs at 12 & below is a definite no-no by anyone. This includes coaches, parents, or even players on base. This also applies to letting the batter know where the catcher is setting up (high, low, inside, outside, etc.). Until the kids are at an age where you can make the signs complicated enough to avoid being stolen, it's just poor sportsmanship, although not illegal.
Most of the coaches at 10u understand this, but it doesn't mean the parents do. It is up to the coaches to enforce this ethic with their parents to make sure it doesn't happen. We had one parent tip location for one pitch earlier this season and we immediately made a correction to stop it. If we see another team doing it, we can only let the coaches know it's happening and let them stop it. At 11u (next year for us), if we see that it's happening, the batter is likely to get plunked.
My guess is that at 13u, you can begin to make the signs complicated enough that stealing them begins to come into play. But again, you better be careful if you don't want to get on in the backside. 13u coaches may have a better opinion on this than I do. I look forward to their feedback. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 07:39:26
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| Not bush league at all IMO, your coach needs to come up with a better system of delivering his signals it isnt that hard. Now I will agree having a fan in the stands stealing signals is bush and having a coach in the stands is not only bush but probably illegal. He needs to be in the dugout if he is in uniform, not sitting in the stands. |
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Sox
55 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 08:38:56
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| It's always Coach Dad standing behind the back stop on the other side of the Umpire doing the dirty work, I would ask a parent to leave if they started doing that, I think that's poor sportsmanship, But that's what some teams will do to win! |
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tater77bug
133 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 09:18:55
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| All is fair on the field...coaches need to make adjustments if it's happening during the game...however, CoachDad in the stands who may have a better aligment for reading signs or location is just bad...if that parent wants to scout signs fine but give his notes to the coach on the field...and I bet in many cases CoachDad only steals signs for his kid.... |
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WJrWolverines
53 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 10:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by PutMeInCoach
Our team has played a certain Woodstock area team twice this year. They have won both games so maybe I'm just a little disgruntled but it seems very Bush-League and unsportsmanlike to have someone in the spectator area stealing signs for pitches and relaying them to the batters. They had a fan or assistant coach in the stands that would call the players name when a pitch was anything other than a fastball as signaled by our coach. Both times our coach has caught on to it and made an adjustment. IMO if you must steal signs, and I know it happens, at least let it be the players/coaches that are inside the fence. Little Johnny would be better served learning to read the ball from the pitchers hand and recognizing the pitch himself. Someday, if he keeps playing, he'll need to be able to figure some things out for himself.
Just for the record this was NOT the 14U Woodstock Jr. Wolverines. Thx. |
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bruins1
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 23:06:38
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| Stealing signs from inside the fence is part of the game. If a coach can't teach his catcher how to cover his signs when he gives them to a pitcher or can't teach his kids to use second or third sign when there is a runner on second base, then its his fault, not the fault of the team taking advantage of it. Doesnt matter what age it is. 10 or 11 year old coaches have the same responsibility as a 14 year old coach to teach their catchers how to hide signs or relay signs in that are not so obvious. |
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stinger
120 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 12:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by bruins1
Stealing signs from inside the fence is part of the game. If a coach can't teach his catcher how to cover his signs when he gives them to a pitcher or can't teach his kids to use second or third sign when there is a runner on second base, then its his fault, not the fault of the team taking advantage of it. Doesnt matter what age it is. 10 or 11 year old coaches have the same responsibility as a 14 year old coach to teach their catchers how to hide signs or relay signs in that are not so obvious.
I couldn't disagree more with this for the younger kids. If you're stealing signs at 9u, 10u, 11u then you have the wrong approach to baseball. It's one thing to teach your kids to try to pick up on a pitcher changing grips on the mound, but it's entirely another for a coach to steal a sign from a 9 year-old and relay it to his batter. I think most of the coaches at this age would agree with me. Teach your kids to learn to wait on a change-up (or fight it off) and stop relying on a tip-off to be able to hit. |
Edited by - stinger on 06/03/2009 12:39:15 |
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Hanging Curve
64 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 12:57:02
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PutMeInCoach,
What age group is this team you're talking about? |
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bruins1
32 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 14:02:27
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If a 30 year old man can calls pitches against a 9 or 10 year old batter then a coach has the same right to tell that batter what pitch that 30 year old is trying to sneak past him. Simple as that. No advantage, just evening the playing field against a grown man. When coaches start letting their 9 year old pitcher/catcher call their own game against another 9 or 10 year old, then the argument holds water. Until then, it does not.
quote:
Originally posted by stinger
quote:
Originally posted by bruins1
Stealing signs from inside the fence is part of the game. If a coach can't teach his catcher how to cover his signs when he gives them to a pitcher or can't teach his kids to use second or third sign when there is a runner on second base, then its his fault, not the fault of the team taking advantage of it. Doesnt matter what age it is. 10 or 11 year old coaches have the same responsibility as a 14 year old coach to teach their catchers how to hide signs or relay signs in that are not so obvious.
I couldn't disagree more with this for the younger kids. If you're stealing signs at 9u, 10u, 11u then you have the wrong approach to baseball. It's one thing to teach your kids to try to pick up on a pitcher changing grips on the mound, but it's entirely another for a coach to steal a sign from a 9 year-old and relay it to his batter. I think most of the coaches at this age would agree with me. Teach your kids to learn to wait on a change-up (or fight it off) and stop relying on a tip-off to be able to hit.
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a1prog
164 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2009 : 16:53:28
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| i think stinger hit it. if you are stealing signs prior to age 13/14 then something's wrong. am i to believe that at younger ages the kids not only get all of their own signs correct but they have the ability to steal them from the other team and relay them to the batter? please. when i coached we won by placing an emphasis on ourselves and not worrying about the other guy. at 14u we started working on this because it occurs when you get to high school. but as someone else noted- be warned because the payback if you get caught is, well, painful. |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 07:08:26
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Bruins - with all due respect, I've had this conversation with dozens of other coaches and you are the first person (don't know if you are a coach) I've encountered with your opinion. Again, until you are able to teach complicated signals from coach-to-catcher, and catcher-to-pitcher, then stealing signs is just poor sportsmanship. Stinger has it right, teach your kids to focus on their own efforts and not to be dependent on a coach to let them know when a change-up is coming or where a fast ball will be located. That will be much more beneficial to your players in the long run.
While again it's not illegal, if caught, a team stealing signs will be ostracized within the coaching community. |
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jr63
7 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 09:47:46
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| Bruins makes an interesting point though, are the coaches who are calling for a specific pitch to a 9/10/11u player not intentionally pitching to the weakness of that hitter? It is an adult mind verses a kids mind. Never thought about it from that perspective before.... |
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Tball
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 21:04:18
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| Bruins1 we are talking 9, 10, and 11 year olds who should be looking to hit a changeup or fast ball. At this age the pitchers should not be calling their own game. Even the MLB guys have signs. Its part of the game in this age group and we need to let the players decide the game with their ability and not the opposing teams coach or parents stealing signs and telling the other players. Worry about your own team and everything else works out. |
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Fans/Assistant Coaches Stealing Signs
